I agree, the buff was very good, but right now there are still issues with the perk, and I wanted to make it so it counters actual tunnelling, it has a lot of situations where you aren't being tunnelled but you can still stab the killer. This idea is to counteract the survivor playing stupid, I think the change they made was in good intentions and made it a lot better and less oppressive. Thank you for your feedback.
I like your first idea the most. +1
This is a very well put together argument and I agree with a lot of this, thank you for being civil as well and giving feedback.
Waiting 20s before a hit? Thats, coincidentally, the same time as waiting after a M1 = 75m including bloodlust. Which means free escape out of the gates.
We're talking offtopic anyways, lategame BT is a change a lot of players want to see, but its probably not gonna happen anyways. DS in lockers should be deactivated, thats the main point about the perk that misses the mark.
This thread is hilarious. Why just not remove it and any other perks in the game that dont benefit killers?
This isn't a thread about nerfing survivors to the ground, the perk is problematic in several ways, which I'm suggesting ideas for fun. I am not trying to get survivor's perks to be bad, I want to make them less oppressive in situations where they are uncounterable.
DS is fine.
If you got hit with DS one of two things happened:
1) You were tunneling.
2) The survivor purposely let you down them to DS you. You took the bait. Therefore you got outplayed.
It's really not hard to avoid DS. I slug like crazy when I expect a DS, going so far as to just leave the person on the ground to find someone else. Sometimes I just flat out eat the DS, especially if I'm Nurse or Spirit. Go ahead, DS me, I'll just catch you again in 10 seconds or less.
It's really not hard to get around.
Sorry but you are assuming way too much. Survivors do not “control” where they get downed. Sure, sometimes they have the luxury of steering a chase a certain way but many times they don’t. Then you assume other survivors will always be around and willing to body block and that these made to order survivors will naturally have BT. While at red ranks body blocking teammates are more common there are plenty of times that they aren’t nearby or there’s only 1 or they’re already injured etc.
Maybe I’m wrong but it seems like many people confuse count and percentage. Losing a kill because of an unstoppable DS near an exit (not because of bodyblocking teammates or BT) does not happen so frequently that it needs to be fixed. Maybe it’s happened to you 5 times in the past week, which feels like a lot, but out of how many games? And when it DOES happen, bear in mind that the survivor gave up a perk like Prove Thyself or Spine Chill or something else to take that gamble that it would pay off.
60 seconds of immunity used to be ruthless Is not ok. Start yo do gens should deactivate it. Killer hooking another person should aswell.
See, sometimes you don't intend to tunnel, and you still get stabbed, I've stabbed killers that have completely downed and hooked a survivor, and came over to me, I jumped in a locker, and stabbed him when he pulled me out. I wouldn't call that tunneling, and the only counter is to waste time and wait, when you're unhooked and you go to a locker immediately, the killer can't do anything about that for 60 seconds. There is physically no counterplay that doesnt result in the survivor getting away within that time frame, the only counterplay is to wait 60 seconds and apply no pressure, it isn't tunneling when a survivor who was saved from a hook to take hits for their friend from the chase and have invincibility from being hooked for the duration of their perk.
Survivors don't crawl out often to me because of DS because I will make sure they use it ASAP so I don't have to deal with it. So many survivors use DS and I can't keep track of them all that I may as well get hit by the DS on my own terms rather than theirs.
As far as crawling out goes, it's not how often I've had it done to me, it's how often I'VE done it to other killers and the amount of times I can (or even could) do it is not an inconsiderable amount. At least one third of my normal games (normal games being where somebody doesn't DC/suicide on hook or the killer DCs or whatever), I've been able to just do a last minute save and crawl my butt out and there isn't a damn thing the killer can do to stop me. Sometimes I will even run Tenacity and Unbreakable, just for the extra BS.
My first post on the first page was not an exaggeration. It's a thing I've done many times and will continue to do until the devs finally balance the perk. A perk that rewards you with a free health state and killer stun while eliminating any immediate punishment for up to a whole 60 seconds twice in a game where the survivors can finish their objective in just 3 and a half minutes is just simply incredibly powerful for a passive. Anyone who understands that will use it to their full advantage.
DS is literally so powerful that the literal existence to the perk is a buff to the entire survivor side and strong arms the killer into playing a certain way or risk losing massive pressure, even if none of them even have the perk equipped so long as an obsession exists in the match. That just doesn't sound like a very balanced perk to me.
Even NOED isn't comparable as 1 DS being avoided once can eat up as much time as 1 survivor cleansing all 5 totems on the map (95% of the time it will only be 4 totems required due to Ruin being an outright necessity), or just one survivor finding the appropriate Hex totem after gates become powered.
Personally I find it useless, except for a rare occasion when someone unhooks me in front of the killer. Even then unless I actually get away it either times out or I'm downed beside the hook.
Keep it simple, you get one chance of hitting back and not being hooked.
Doesn't matter, killer should be paying attention to how long it's been since they hooked you. And jumping in a locker is a dead give-away you have DS. If the killer grabs you that is 100% their fault. You baited them, they took it. OUTPLAYED.
And there is a counter play. Slug them. Go for another survivor. Slugging is super effective at slowing the game, especially if you have Sloppy. I had a game as Spirit on Ward the other day, I returned to a hook and saw the Feng jump into a locker. Even though it was her death hook and I already tunneled her once kinda, I just said okay screw you and went for the Ace instead. There were no gens near her and she was so scared to leave the locker I'm pretty sure she stayed in there until the Ace went down. I still won that game easily.
In your explanation you described going from point A to B when using DS to guarantee a successful escape. As if every single match plays the same for some reason. Variables do exist you know. Which is why I listed the different scenarios of what could be for/against you (gates location, LoS etc.) You can believe that it happens 95% of the time but I am not buying it. I’m in red ranks and I see VERY skilled killers who would rather eat the DS early and know exactly what they need to do to secure that one kill and even snowball at times.
Hooking them far away from the gate works better than not don’t you think? I mean it only takes common sense to know that. If you get a group of people even with someone with BT. You can still hit the person unhooking and make sure you down them, not the person with the endurance status. I’ve done it and it works.
Even without enduring, there is a lot of evidence that you can counter it and you only need to watch a good streamer or play in red ranks to realize this.
Also assuming that people are just going to keep unhooking each other to proc their DS’s is kind of silly. You would think that by that point someone is on death hook, which if they are their DS is going bye-bye. Of course, this is hypothetically speaking since much of this is dependent on the skill or the killer.
I play in red ranks, I've seen people play in red ranks. I've seen killers go through the odds to beat DS, and then I've seen good squads use DS effectively to beat even some of the best killers who play this game.
As you say, variables exist, but I don't believe there should be a set of variables where it's impossible for the killer to do anything because the survivor team played optimally, got their generators done in 4 minutes, and the killer can't capitalize on it because 4 people still have DS.
- Timer activates for 60 seconds after an unhook.
- If slugged, the timer pauses.
- When someone else gets on a hook while DS is active, the Perk deactivates.
- If you are slugged while DS is active and someone is being put on a hook, the Perk will pick you up from the dying state and deavtivate. (Not disabled until you miss or hit it, just deactivated)
As a red rank killer, I don't find it a problem at all. I've been lucky that I have not yet run into it accidentally and the only thing that's annoying is the exit gate thing but that's fair play. There's nothing that says someone can't use it in a very optimized way. It's not like the perk was designed exclusively for being tunneled, if that were the case then it should work more than once. I just think a lot of killer Mains get salty when someone escapes at the exit gate and tea bags. I don't care about any of that stuff, some matches I get four some matches I get three some matches everyone escapes that's part of the game. It would be so boring if every game I got all four people or always Escape or always died. The existing version has a lot of prerequisites for it to trigger and it only works once. I don't see why people want to further convolute the perk.
About the only thing I would like to see changed is for the duration that it is active reduced from 60 seconds to 45 seconds. I would be fine with that 45 second timer refreshing if the survivor is downed while it is active. But if you weren't downed within 45 seconds of being pulled off a hook then you weren't tunneled.
imo as a survivor main, when someone else is hooked cut it off BUT... if youre seudo tunneled and slugged it shouldnt turn off. once your team picks u up then it shuts off
I mean, if the team played optimal why would you deny their reward?
There is no scenario where a killer Or a survivor would find themselves unable to do anything unless they actually made a bad play first... and even then I would argue that they can come back from it.
Simply having DS does not mean the survivor is going to get a chance to stab the killer. The fact that there are different outcomes in teams where DS was in play shows that it is possible to counter it and it isn’t as broken as people are saying here.
Why deny their reward?
How about we look at it the other way around:
Why deny the survivor from being punished when they make a bad play?
Any other time I would make such a play at the end game, both I and the survivor I rescued would be going on the hook. We both have DS though, so we both get rewarded for what would otherwise be an absolutely atrocious play and just crawl out the exit gate together.
I didn't "play well" doing this. I knew there was no risk and no way the killer could pick me up to hook me again. I knew I couldn't be punished no matter how stupidly I played, even if I was grabbed during the unhooking process. Worst case scenario I don't get the unhook and just crawl out.
I don't find that very fair, I don't find it balanced and it certainly doesn't make me a skilled survivor simply because I equipped a passive.
Rather than having to carefully plan my rescue and co-ordinate together with my teammates, I can just mindlessly run in by myself, go for the unhook, and just crawl out with the guy I literally just farmed with no consequences to either of us because if the killer tries to retaliate it's their fault and they should have "JusT nOt tuNnELed"
Decisive is good and balanced rn. It's no longer a staple and honestly quite easy to counter. If you don't like having people with ds active at an open exit gate maybe you should be less sweaty for kills. They got out, get over it. Survivors have to get over an impossible to find totem
There are lots of things that could be done.
Decreasing the time it stays active. A whole minute of hook immunity is way too much, it punishes killers who aren't tunneling and creates situations where they can leave the exit gates without being possibly stopped. Also, there is no real way of countering it when combined with Unbreakable.
Make so it doesn't trigger during locker grabs (because there is no counter to it).
Make so it get's deactivated when another survivor is hooked (because it means the killer wasn't "tunneling" that survivor).
And also: DS should NOT activate on self-unhooks. There have been plenty of games where I hooked the last two survivors, one of them escaped the hook with that 4% chance and got immediatly downed, but I was forced to wait a whole minute just watching the survivor crawl to prevent the person from getting up again via DS. It's unfun and completely unnecessary.
Getting deactivated when another survivor gets hooked is actually a good idea. I feel like the devs might implement this if DS starts seeing too much use again
The gate immunity is a part of the problem, another is the fact if you hop in a locker with DS, you're either going to get out free, or you're going to wastes about 50 seconds.
Bringing up other problems that another side has to face isn't an argument either, we can't address every problem in a singular post, I have my beliefs on totem spawns and maybe one day I'll post a thread about it, but for now, DS is on the table. And locker DS is uncounterable except for waiting and having little pressure.
This could be a great idea as well, and is the most likely that they will add if they ever changed it, but the locker problem would still remain, same with the exit gate problem. It would be a great step in the right direction though.
Nothing, leave it alone.
Yes these are things DS does. Thank you for telling me. If you don't want DS to be in the game that's your opinion
I agree with this, the part about them unhooking themselves and you having to wait is extremely annoying, and had happened to me both killer and survivor.