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Which do we balance around. The 1v4 or the 1v1

This is the question that is the main reason why Dead by Daylight can (most likely) not be balanced completely.

Let's look at both sides

• The 1v4 aspect looks at the game as a whole. This formula is preferred mostly by killer mains.

• The reason for balancing around the 1v4 makes sense, it is a 1v4 in a whole, but in the chase, it isn't. This formula would also equal (if both sides are equally as skilled) a 4 kill 0 survival rate. This makes sense, but we must look at the other side.

• The 1v1 aspect looks at the game as the main part of the game, the chase. This formula is preferred mostly by survivors.

• The reason for balancing around the 1v1, also makes sense. The main portion of the game where the killers and survivors are engaging in skillful interaction (skillful most of the times, cough, rancid abattoir and Ironworks window, uncough.) The chase, it is the true interaction of the game, but if we balance around the 1v1, the formula would result in (if both sides are equally skilled) around a 1 kill 3 survival ratio. Not good.

The main issue is, both sides are correct in their own way. And there isn't a great compromise between the two. Except 2 escape 2 death ratio, which is what devs are going for.

What do you think the game should be balanced around? I personally (survivor main bias sort of warning siren) think the chase should be balanced around the 1v1 but slightly adjusted, (aka ironworks window getting banned) but the other objectives should be balanced around the 1v4 and adjusted so they cannot have significant portions of the game done within the first chase. This could be done somehow, I'm not sure. Which is why I'm asking for your feedback, please try to be civil, all feedback is greatly appreciated.

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Comments

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    The main thing is, the chase is the only skillful interaction between the killer and the survivor, if the game is balanced around the 1v4, the survivors skill doesn't account for unless the survivor is 4x better than the killer.

    But if it's a 1v1, the killer must be 4x better. Which doesn't account for the killers skill.

    There isn't a very clear choice.

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    It could be said the same for in the chase, you can't balance around the 1v4 when you're only chasing 1 survivor.

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 7,200
    edited December 2019

    If the game was balanced around 1v4 that doesn't just automatically not make the survivor skill matter in a 1v1 chase. Their skill is prolonging the chase as much as possible. You don't need 4x the skill.

    The goal is to waste time, the survivors aren't supposed to get away in a chase as much as they do now.

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    But the only skillful interaction between the killer and the survivor is the chase. Which is a 1v1

    But the game is a 1v4

    But the interaction where skill is involved is a 1v1

    It's hard to choose.

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    If the killer is 4x as powerful, as 1 survivor, the survivor would need 4x the skill to successfully not get hit or go down.

    If we're going by prolonging the chase, we can't accurately measure a chase, but let's say we can, the survivor would go down 4x as fast. But we can't measure it. The map tiles decide how long a chase goes on.

    Balancing around a 1v1 in a chase and 1v4 in a whole are both correct. Both have their own merits and are correct in their own way.

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    Every hour someone spends learning a killer or the survivor goes into the chase. There are very little other things that have a strong learning curve that aren't involved with the chase.

    If the killer is balanced around the 1v4, the survivors skill is ignored.

    This is an example, but old legion was the definition of ignoring skill, because no matter how good you are, you are going to die. It didn't matter if you were 100s of times better you were going to die.

    If a survivor is better than a killer, the survivor should win. If a killer is better than a survivor, the killer should win. But the fact is we can't do that in a game with 4 survivors.

    But we can't balance around the 1v4, because the entirety of the time you put into learning a killer and survivor is for the chase.

    There is a 1v1 mode, it's called the chase. But the game as a whole, is a 1v4. There is not a correct solution.

  • dont_ask_me_againdont_ask_me_again Member Posts: 490

    Both....

    If there’s no 1v1 (Micro) aspect there’s no ranking system... anyone can play killer and win against survivors as they’re designed to go down for the killer just playing.

    And 1v4 (Macro) is important to get a certain result: - 62.5% kills per deaths on average.

  • ZoldyarZoldyar Member Posts: 431

    You talk about the surivior goal to waste the killer's time to win, but how can they if the killer is always going to end chases quicker than they can do gens? If all killers was buff to be a 4 vs 1 then how do you expect noob suriviors to win or to understand the game? The kill rate already shows killers doing well of getting a likely chance of 2 kills each game, so imagine what the game would be like for noob suriviors if killers were buff even more.

    Not only that, but how is it fair for a rank 20 killer to be comparable to a rank 1 surivior? By them eliminating the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, then any killer of any rank can beat a rank 1 surivior team. So how is it fair for a person who spend hours on the game to lose to someone who spent one hour playing? The whole point of wasting time is the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, so taking it away. There is nothing a surivior can do to waste time more than a minute if all killers were buff more.

    When you speak of it focusing on a 4 vs 1 aspect, then do you expect all killers to be strong enough to beat an swf team? In that case, then how do you expect solo suriviors to win games?

    You are also wrong about killers not getting 4k each game because if we look at the statistics, it clearly shows all killers being capable of getting more than 2 kills and 2 escapes. So if they were to buff killers to a 4 vs 1. Then it's common sense to assume the kill rate of all killers will increase massively. Especially Freddy and Spirit who has a 75% chance.

    Individual experience is another reason for the 1 vs 1 aspect because what's the point playing a game where no matter how much experience you gain, you will always lose to a rank 20 killer. Not only that, but when in chases you chances of lasting is like 20 seconds. What enjoyment would the surivior gain out of it? Not only that, but the killer won't gain any enjoyment out of it because there will be no challenge to them.

    So no one should say the game should only be focus on a 1vs1 or 1 vs 4. It should only be focus on both because thats the closest way of making it balance.


  • SkizorSkizor Member Posts: 6

    Most of the balance issues I feel come from the inherent disconnect between the survivors acting as a team with coordination(SWF) and without(A group of 4 randoms). It becomes much harder to balance perks and killer powers when there is so much variance between how people will cooperate in any given match. There is no way to know what your other fellow survivors will bring to the table unless you are SWF and with that when you are organized you can win with minimal losses(Assuming that a killer is of equal skill to the survivors) because the game is not balanced around total cooperation.

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    I agree with absolutely everything. There isn't a clear cut 1v1 or 1v4 chase because dbd is such a different game.

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    I agree, if we balance around 1v4 swfs, solo survivors quit. If we balance around 1v1 solo survivors, killers quit. If we balance around 1v4 solos, solo survivors quit and killers quit. There isn't clear cut solutions.

  • Hag.is.DtierHag.is.Dtier Member Posts: 1,397
    edited December 2019

    1v4, killer is supposed to stronger than individual survivors. It's the core of an asymetric survival horror game. Most of the problems with this game stem from the "gen rush" issue. The survivors main objective (gens) is boring and too easy. Once that and the map designs are fixed then the devs can hopefully, balance the game properly.

    Post edited by Hag.is.Dtier on
  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    The survivors skill will be ignored, if we balance around a 1v4, the survivor could be better than the killer and still lose.

    If we balance around a 1v4, survivors hours and time they've spent putting into the game will be wasted. The only other interactions require the holding of a button and sometimes pressing another button

    The game is a 1v4, but the main interaction in the chase, which is why killers need to be stronger outside of the chase or something needs to be done to stop generator completion while a chase is happening.

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 7,200

    "You talk about the surivior goal to waste the killer's time to win, but how can they if the killer is always going to end chases quicker than they can do gens?"

    That literally is not what happens at all. Survivors can currently do gens vastly faster than a killer has time to complete his objective.

    "If all killers was buff to be a 4 vs 1 then how do you expect noob suriviors to win or to understand the game?"

    They practice and improve at the game like any other game. You balance from the top down, not the bottom up. This is how every other successful game functions.

    "The kill rate already shows killers doing well of getting a likely chance of 2 kills each game, so imagine what the game would be like for noob suriviors if killers were buff even more."

    No, the devs have already stated you should NOT be drawing conclusions from this data as it is HEAVILY flawed and inaccurate. The devs have stated this over and over and over on these forums but posts like these keep coming. There are a multitude of factors this data does not take into account which is why the devs have said this.

    "Not only that, but how is it fair for a rank 20 killer to be comparable to a rank 1 surivior?"

    No one is comparing a rank 20 killer to rank 1 survivor.

    "By them eliminating the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, then any killer of any rank can beat a rank 1 surivior team"

    No, just because the game would be balanced around a 1v4 does not mean no skill is required to win the game.

    "So how is it fair for a person who spend hours on the game to lose to someone who spent one hour playing?"

    That literally isn't what happens at all. We have a ranking system. Yes it is a flawed ranking system, but what you saying isn't what happens outside of a swf.

    "The whole point of wasting time is the 1 vs 1 aspect of the game, so taking it away. There is nothing a surivior can do to waste time more than a minute if all killers were buff more."

    I have literally said that the point is to waste the killers time, I have never said to take that away. A minute? Seriously? If the chases lasted a minute ya'll have completely incinerated that killer with 0 kills unless he stands in front of you facecamping. The game was not designed for chases to last even remotely close to one minute. If you look at chase times compared to gen times this is clear. If your chases are lasting that long and ya'll aren't completely destroying the killer then you are playing at low ranks and your team is doing absolutely nothing.

    "You are also wrong about killers not getting 4k each game because if we look at the statistics, it clearly shows all killers being capable of getting more than 2 kills and 2 escapes. So if they were to buff killers to a 4 vs 1. Then it's common sense to assume the kill rate of all killers will increase massively. Especially Freddy and Spirit who has a 75% chance."

    It has already been said that these stats are NOT accurate and you should not be drawing conclusions from them, said by the devs. Stop trying to use these flawed stats.

    "Individual experience is another reason for the 1 vs 1 aspect because what's the point playing a game where no matter how much experience you gain, you will always lose to a rank 20 killer."

    That is not what is being said whatsoever. Making the game balanced around a 4v1 does not make you auto lose to a rank 20 killer. That's just ridiculous.

    "Not only that, but when in chases you chances of lasting is like 20 seconds."

    You do realize that with how short gen times are that for a killer to have a chance of winning he would have to down survivors in 20 seconds or less on every chase right? What you are saying is unreasonable is literally the requirement the killer has to have a chance of winning.

    "Not only that, but the killer won't gain any enjoyment out of it because there will be no challenge to them."

    Oh you mean as opposed to now with all the "fun" the killer is having getting looped for 5 gens? You act like the killer experience is fun in its current state.

    "So no one should say the game should only be focus on a 1vs1 or 1 vs 4. It should only be focus on both because thats the closest way of making it balance."

    The game IS a 4v1, so it should be balanced around a 4v1 this is simply common sense.

    Based on your opinions I do not believe you play both sides at high rank. I think if you did your opinions would change a lot.

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    We can't balance around a 1v1 chase yet because of maps and tiles, generators relatively easy completion, if we fix most things in the game, a 1v1 balance or 1v4 balance may be possible, but currently there isn't an answer that is right

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89
    edited December 2019

    You're acting as if you actually don't play both sides, you're arguments don't work because there isn't an answer to it, you cannot balance around a 1v4. You cannot balance around a 1v1.

    If we were to balance around a 1v4 aka equally skilled survivor and killer, killer would be 4x as strong as that survivor.

    But the chase isn't a 1v4.

    The game isn't a 1v1

    You're not right, no one is. This is simply what you think. This is not a subjective argument, the chase IS a 1v1, everything else is a 1v4.

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 7,200
    edited December 2019

    "The survivors skill will be ignored, if we balance around a 1v4, the survivor could be better than the killer and still lose."

    Your objective as survivor in the chase is NOT to win, it is to waste time. The more skilled you are, the more time you waste before you go down.

    "If we balance around a 1v4, survivors hours and time they've spent putting into the game will be wasted. The only other interactions require the holding of a button and sometimes pressing another button"

    Where are you getting this? Just because a "power role" is vastly stronger than the survivor does not just magically mean his skill means nothing. Not to mention you are completely overlooking all skill based actions in the game besides the chase with this statement.

    Post edited by Blueberry on
  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,637
    edited December 2019

    Balance around 1v4 SWF. Buff solo Survivors to be comparable to SWF. Balance Killers accordingly.

    I'm not convinced by your claims that if you balance around 1v4, then Survivor skill in a chase does not matter.

  • T2KT2K Member Posts: 593
    edited December 2019

    1v1 in a 1v4 game? maybe Im missing out something. But even in the 1v1 eg the chase there are other players doing objective. I cant see where a 1v1 is. Only if 3 survs are dead, then you have a 1v1 and only because it resulted out of a 1v4. wth

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    Making solos comparable to SWF is a good idea and would be the path if we were to balance around a 1v4 aspect. Again still the problems of the chase is a 1v1 so why should we balance around a 1v4 in the chase but then we have the argument why should we make the chase a 1v1 when everything else is a 1v4

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,637

    You balance the game overall around 1v4, not just one aspect (the chase).

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 7,200

    "You're acting as if you actually don't play both sides"

    Just because I play both sides enough to understand one side is very much unbalanced doesn't imply I don't play both sides. That just doesn't make any sense.

    "If we were to balance around a 1v4 aka equally skilled survivor and killer, killer would be 4x as strong as that survivor.

    But the chase isn't a 1v4."

    EXACTLY. That is entirely the point. The chase isn't a 4v1 so the survivor should be going down quite quickly. If he didn't (which is what we have now) the killer has no time to complete his objectives. An entire gen is 80 seconds...with 3 other people all working on them at the same time...

    "You're not right, no one is. This is simply what you think. This is not subjective."

    The game is a 4v1, so you balance around what the game is...a 4v1. That is objective, not subjective.

  • SammyWasabiSammyWasabi Member Posts: 89

    The chase is the 1v1, but everything else is a 1v4.

    If we balance for the 1v4, the survivor's skill In a chase doesn't matter

    If we balance for a 1v1 the killer's skill doesn't matter in a game.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 7,637

    "If we balance for the 1v4, the survivor's skill In a chase doesn't matter"

    What do you base this on, exactly? It seems like you are just accepting this as truth without supporting the idea.

  • FriendlyGuyFriendlyGuy Member Posts: 2,768

    If the devs would balance perfectly, they would longer the whole match time somehow and longer the chases accordingely.

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