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What can 4% do?

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  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,282

    No I stated the data clealy showed it wasn't working as intended implying the data they used for the change. No where do I state the data they shared with us so again that's an assumption on your part.

    Yes I am assuming the devs have data showing its not working as intended but its not a baseless assumption as they have stated multiple times they do infact use data we are not privy too for balancing.

    It works both ways you have zero proof they weren't needed. Peanits commented above that working in combination with some perks made it slow down a lot so my assumptions seems more inline with the thought process.

    What peanits said

    "Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more."

    On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much as I while you can say I made an assumption it was made purely on the fact the change has happened. The devs obviously thought a change was needed hence it has happened so your assumption that it wasn't needed isn't based on the fact it was but what you personally think.

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 10,074
    edited December 2019

    "No I stated the data clealy showed it wasn't working as intended implying the data they used for the change."

    That is making an assumption.

    "No where do I state the data they shared with us so again that's an assumption on your part."

    Why in the world would I assume you were referencing anything that we have never been shown? That just doesn't make any sense at all. We reference data we do have, not assumptions on data we have never seen but think exist.

    "Yes I am assuming the devs have data showing its not working as intended but its not a baseless assumption as they have stated multiple times they do infact use data we are not privy too for balancing."

    And if they data they choose to give us is heavily skewed and should not be used for conclusions because of this is that flawed, why would you assume the data they haven't shown us is any different?

    "It works both ways you have zero proof they weren't needed."

    And I am not the one asking for changes because of that reason. You are the one wanting changes. I don't ask for changes unless I have data to back it up.

    "Peanits commented above that working in combination with some perks made it slow down a lot so my assumptions seems more inline with the thought process."

    As I mentioned before, since we have not seen the data we have no reason to believe it's any more accurate than the data we have been given.

    "What peanits said

    "Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.""

    This is assuming no one chooses to wake up which is quite easy, no one chooses to heal (of which Dying Light is making easier), the killer doesn't kill the obsession AND the killer is using up all addon slots as well as 2 perk slots.

    Yeah when the survivors choose not to use a single ounce of counter play handed to them anything will seem strong.

    "The devs obviously thought a change was needed hence it has happened so your assumption that it wasn't needed isn't based on the fact it was but what you personally think."

    The devs have also made many poor changes in the past, so assuming that it was a needed change because they did it doesn't seem like good reasoning.

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2019

    Why would you not? the devs have stated multiple times that the data shown on the kill rates isnt used for balancing.

    They have stated numerous times that they use many factors and actual data to make balance changes hence its not a baseless assumption but an assumption off of what we have been told to be the case so it comes down to common sense.

    Overall you just dont seem to beleive there is a reason for some changes being made which is fine but thats something you personally feel. For myself when we have all been told multiple times they do infact have the data I beleive it. All I see is you are just arguing the point that you simply dont want to beleive.That then comes down to a trust issue on what you what the devs state.

    Yes some poor changes have happened, in fact many have but that doesnt mean this one is one of those. The last Legion and BT change was a bad change what I think should have happened was an addon change and many argued the same case. This one maybe they may have learnt from that mistake and why i said they could have decided to change some addons instead of the perk combination which would affect all the other killers.

    Just becasue you dont want to beleive something was needed doesnt mean it wasnt. Since we have no way of knowing the exact data they use then again it comes down to trust in the devs which you cleary dont have so no matter what happens unless you agree with a change then it will never seem to be needed.

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 10,074

    "Since we have no way of knowing then again it comes down to trust in the devs"

    This is what the entire conversation can be boiled down to. Trust to me is earned by actions and over the last 3+ years of changes I don't believe it is there. This is the crux of our disagreement.

    "so no matter what happens unless you agree with a change then it will never seem to be needed."

    Not quite. I agree with a change if along with the change good reasoning or data is provided to back up said change.

  • IhatelifeIhatelife Member Posts: 5,069

    That's the point though. It was like running DS+Deliverance with Unbreakable. Strong build against the one specific aspect of the game. I thought you're fair with this?

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,282

    So again I lead you to this quote.

    "Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.

    On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much"

    So knowing a dev stated this on this very thread it does show reasoning is stated so to myself the change was made due to looking at many perks and the overall possible slowdown effects as the quote itself states "stacking everything together makes it way too much" so one can conclude it was stronger in these combinations than they intended it to be hence the change.

    So that goes back to my comments of its either change the perks or change the addons.

    If you are never going to trust them then no matter what they say it really wont matter as you will disregard any and all reasoning as you have done here.

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 10,074
    edited December 2019

    "So again I lead you to this quote.

    "Have you considered combining it with other effects? Toss on swing chains and you've got up to 12%. Thanataphobia can add up to another 16% (total of 28%), and Dying Light can raise that up even further. And that's only considering action speed modifiers, you could also slap Ruin and PGTW on to slow generators down even more.

    On it's own, it's no big deal. But stacking everything together makes it way too much""

    And I'll respond again with the same thing I did before.

    "This is assuming no one chooses to wake up which is quite easy, no one chooses to heal (of which Dying Light is making easier), the killer doesn't kill the obsession AND the killer is using up all addon slots as well as 2 perk slots.

    Yeah when the survivors choose not to use a single ounce of counter play handed to them anything will seem strong."

    That is not good reasoning. It's lowering the bar because people refuse to learn and adapt.

    "so one can conclude it was stronger in these combinations than they intended it to be hence the change."

    The level of strength they intend is very weak.

    "So that goes back to my comments of its either change the perks or change the addons"

    Nothing you've shown has stated why either needed to happen.

    "If you are never going to trust them then no matter what they say it really wont matter as you will disregard any and all reasoning as you have done here."

    You are misunderstanding. I never said or even implied, "never going to trust them then no matter". What I said or implied was that I do not trust them unless it is included with good reasoning or data to back it up.

    The reasoning Peanits gave was not "good reasoning". It was flawed on many accounts.

    The game does need better balancing for low ranks as well but that is not how it should be done.

    These are my opinions from many hours of play and you have yours.

  • FregglesFredFregglesFred Member Posts: 317

    If that's the complaining issue, then don't make the add-ons stack.

    If you ask me, this is more of a lazy fix. If you combine them, yes. They are worse. You just said the issue. Don't make it stack.

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,586

    If you have a problem with the effects reaching a certain point, why not just add a ceiling? By this same logic, thanataphobia and dying light still stacks, no matter how much the addons get nerfed. If your looking at the combined values of multiple addons and perks, I feel like this would be the best solution as opposed to gutting one part of it that a player could be using with no intention of stacking to begin with.

  • sliptteesslipttees Member Posts: 785

    Nerf Balanced Landing. Waiting... medkit too. Cry more killers!

  • PeanitsPeanits Dev, Community Manager Posts: 6,750

    Right, but then there's still the issue of other things with similar but not identical effects. Stuff like Ruin and PGTW which don't apply an action speed penalty but do have the same end result. Either way you slice it, you aren't going to be able to cover everything with a single change.

  • bgbombbgbomb Member Posts: 434


    so what's the matter of it?

    the speed buff can stack too and it seems not a problem for you right?

    then why the speed debuff could be a such serious problem that you need to nerf 66%+56%+33%of it?

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,282

    What you are saying is all about if's. The exact same argument can be represented on why a change was needed.

    Now making survivor heal they need to find others to do so or run a perk, wake up, the killer can choose not to kill the obsession (which is counter productive to running the perk so why bother).

    You don't seem to see what forever Freddy build actually was. It was running the exact setup to purposefully slow the game down which was clearly more than the devs obviously wanted or even intended to happen so they decided to make a change.

    Think about it this way with exhaustion. The devs cleary decided they didn't want each perk having a separate cooldown so made one mechanic for all which was needed. In the past players also had to use two perk slots for SB and DH for example so what is the difference?

    The reasoning was they changed something to stop it prolonging a chase too much and this reasoning is to stop it prolonging the game too much. Pretty much the same thing in reality.

    The fact is the devs have gave some reasoning but you don't want to accept it as you just don't believe it was needed. It's not about reasoning then but back to trust as no matter what they say Unless you can get all the raw data needed to show it then you will never see some changes as needed.

    That is fine but as you wont ever have that data so you will always plead a change you dislike as never needed and disregard what reasoning they give. The fact is this has happened and tou cna choose to beleive it or not but its obvious the devs did not want the combination to be possible at all.

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,586

    These are perks that are going to be in play no matter what addons and killer is being used though.I could run Thana, dying light, ruin AND PGTW on a Plague with no addons at all. Not trying to be disrespectful, but why were the addons considered the broken part in this combination?

    Maybe a different route then. Considering the numbers on these addons are pretty much null at this point, wouldnt it be a good direction to simply change their effect all together?

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 4,570

    If the killer manages to get everything up (full Thana, a lot of Dying Light stacks), he has won the game pretty much anyway, with or without having the perks.

    If the killer doesn't have any or a lot of stacks, the stacks aren't really relevant.

    Making the add-ons non-stackable would have been more than enough. Imho even that wouldn't have been necessary. Several killers are more powerful than Forever Freddy.

    Also the stacked effects don't sound that bad when I keep in mind that the Mechanic's Toolbox without add-ons increases repair speed by 20%.

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,586

    In reference to your DH SB analogy... This would be similar to if you could stack SB, DH, Lithe and balanced together on separate cooldowns, so instead of doing anything about being able to stack them like they DID do, they just nerfed 1 of them into the ground and called it a day.

  • Hex_BoopTheSnootHex_BoopTheSnoot Member Posts: 151

    Well the speed decrease Stack with other Dream Demon Add-Ons, Thanatophobia, Dying Light, etc.

  • SpookyJeffSpookyJeff Member Posts: 108
    edited December 2019


    It's just really unfortunate that you guys took BOTH addons, a total of 9k BP investment, down to under what the yellow addon used to do on its own. It feels extreme to those of us who never abused them and enjoyed synergies between other addons, like the paintbrush ultra-rare, which is now pretty much useless because being in dream world with just jump rope now doesn't really do anything. If it was too difficult to make the addons not stack with each other, maybe let the game roll a bit longer instead of doing a quick fix (which I'm sure you guys won't revert if you figured out how to target the addons alone) and devaluing a killer's addon list, which is already pretty weak as far as addons go. That's why everyone universally used the slowdown addons just like every Hag player uses range and setting speed addons.

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,282

    Not really as they were also changed to not being able to recharge after this when running as again they could still be stacked too prolong a chase with BL and then use DH at a pallet after 40s.

    Now if they stopped the add-ons from stacking it could in theory also solve things but they decided to go another route and as peanits stated is isn't as easy to make them not stack as it sounds 😉.

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,586

    The "fix" was simply to nerf the add-ons into oblivion whether you stacked them with anything or not. These add-ons are on par with Bubba's chili add-ons in that the effect is SO minimal now, you'd need side by side video comparisons of using them vs using no add-ons at all to tell any difference. While it's nice that Freddy isn't add-on reliant, his add-ons NOW are all to the point where you won't really see any difference in your gameplay when you use them, making it kinda boring to mix and match when compared to add-ons like Myers.

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,282
    edited December 2019

    You will get use if you use certain perks. So I will say the same which I have said to others.

    What is the lesser evil? To change perks which affect all killers or to change these addons?

    While I don't agree with change for the sake of it maybe certain add-ons working better with certain perks might give more variety in game play with perks used. Let's be honest it was rare to find a Freddy who didn't run the forever setup.

    Add-ons and survivor items imo should add to the gameplay and help change it up a bit but not seen to be essential or be overly strong.

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,586

    If you want to change the addons... CHANGE THEM. Don't just delete them. That's what happened, the add-ons got pretty much deleted. If they changed them to have a meaningful effect OUTSIDE of action speed slowdown, I'd be cool with that. As it stands, they have no effect.

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,282

    Which can still happen but changing an addon completely takes more time than fixing something not working as intended with some number changes.

    Instead of everyone just consyantly complaining give feedback on what you propose would be a better solution in the feedback forum.

    Right now there is no difference to those that complained when MoM was changed. They complained about something that wasnt working as intended but since it affected them directly they couldnt see the bigger picture.

    Not all changes are good and not all things that need balanced can be done in a way which makes everyone happy at the time its needed. If you feel they are trash atm dont use them but I would bet there will still be a lot that will use them paired with certain perks to get the best use out of them.

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,586

    Unfortunately people have been giving feedback on these add-ons since the rework. Z block is a running joke at this point.

  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 6,586

    Wouldn't making the slowdown less potent ALSO reduce that incentive?

  • Ramxenoc445Ramxenoc445 Member Posts: 1,359

    Not everyone can loop effectively and not everyone that gives away their position will be in a proper position to not get caught. Not everyone knows this game like the back of their hands some just play for the fun or when they have the free time.

  • PNgamerPNgamer Member Posts: 1,415

    "Toss on swing chains"


    Question, what is toss ?

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