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Looking at the "proof that devs aren't survivor sided" arguments

So the main argument is that a lot of survivor favouring things used to be in the games and the devs patched them out, which is a fair argument to make but that's ignoring the huge part of "killer changes" for the benefit of survivors. Like the fiasco of the nightmare on steam Street when old Freddy was aparantly deemed OP and things like that. When a post is claiming xyz is killer or survivor sided to me that means xyz makes changes that only benefit the side being argued

So let's just jump into it fellow players

Hatch couldn't be closed - this is a good point to make against the developers being surivor sided as closing the hatch allows the killer to more easily secure a 4th kill. However. The hatch is now in a weird spot of being BS for both killers and survivors, on the one hand upon it being closes the last survivor can be screwed over from even having a chance of escaping. But on the other hand the hatch can spawn right in the survivors running line as they're in a chase and there's nothing a killer can do about it because they removed the ability to grab them to prevent hatch standoffs (to be honest if there's more than 1 generator left a killer who really wants that 4k will probably just stand on the hatch and wait until they learn where the survivor is. Kinda like old times) additionally it was buffed to be able to spawn regardless of generators complete..... But closing the hatch means absolutely nothing if a purple key is even brought into the match.

EGC didn't exist - it's a 3 minute timer for the survivors to leave the game once exit gates have been opened/when the hatch is shut. Unless the killer has noed and a blood warden combo it isn't much of a blow to survivors. If it gets started via an exit gate that's plenty of time to get out. If it's hatch activated.... Its the standard rng of spawns that this game is known for. So I would call it a change to the game rather than a nerd to survivors

DS worked on first down - it did. But you could avoid this ds through dribbling if a hook was close enough, and it was also affected by enduring to my knowledge. And in its current state its stun duration is the highest its ever been at 5 seconds unable to be endured through without the ability for a killer to viably play around it. Sometimes it isn't a viable thing to slug when you need to apply pressure via hooks in the early game

There were More safe pallets - true, but structures like the coal tower haven't been effected in a way that'll severally lessen the loops value or the God window in rancid abattoir that depends on a coin flip. Furthermore their may be less safe pallets but the proximity of strong loops close to each other enables for a survivor to chain on one loop for much longer than they should in theory be able to due to the proximity of other safe pallets

BL infinites - infinites were never intentional. Just like how the developers said oni flick wasn't intentional. But yes balanced landing was nerfed. Well. It got another bonus to compensate making it great for stealth players... Unlike ruin which didn't get any compensation but a decent perk synergy

instant heals allowed for crazy long chases - they did, but this was in tandem with perks like dead hard, your other exhaustion perks, desicive strike. Without these perks I honestly think the community wouldn't have had as bad a view on them. this is a killer sided change however you'll have your content creators like monto who actually claim that the purple styptic change was actually a buff seeing as it can ignore insta downs. Additionally a survivor that's injured can benefit from the perk resilience which in combo with the spine chill perk is slowly coming into a survivor favoring meta (as long as they aren't down they're still able to loop like an uninjured surivor would)

Compare all of these changes to the CONCECUTIVE tweaks to nurse (the rework), oni (the flick. But aparantly it's coming back but in this context it still applies) , spirit (removal of collision plus prayer beads and a viable vault animation) and now doctor with his rework all to make playing against them easier (just look at the 3.5.0 patchnotes for more proof of the focus being on making them easier to play against rather than play as). What compensation did nurse get for having a cooldown forced on her? What did oni get when his flick was removed? (he's got it back aparantly but remember. This is talking about the changes at the time). Spirit got.... No collision? No wait she had most of her purple add ons nerfed. And now doctor. His minute long cooldown for notification bubble is still countered by going into lockers, the cooldown between static shocking and attacking matches that of when he still had to swap stances. His reverse skill checks are a very rare add on that can be countered by just paying attention. What did he get in compensation? The awnser is a sweet makeover to lerrys... But that's not gonna help the doc specifically.



  • VincentRedfieldVincentRedfield Member Posts: 285

    Survivor players: "4 man swf has under 50% escape rate, game is not survivor favored."

    Killer players: "solo survivor has over 25% escape rate? SURVIVORS OP PLS NERF."

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 2,432

    People want to use the overblown stats that even the devs discredited like sheep but those that play both ends on the ground know better..hell even the survivor mains at the top of the community echo this sentiment..its just sad so many people still dont get it or are somehow incapable of it

  • CarpemortumCarpemortum Member Posts: 3,040

    If that was true, they could just disable ruin temporarily. Completely changing it says they're changing it.

    If it turns out gens ARE the culprit, you think they're going to revert the ruin changes? LOL.

  • Archimedes5000Archimedes5000 Member Posts: 438

    Yes, they are completly changing it. Then they will look at the state of the game and decide how much do they have to nerf toolboxes and gen speeds.

    Thats what they said.

    They are not going to revert ruin changes. Gens are the culprit, so they will change gens, not ruin.

  • CarpemortumCarpemortum Member Posts: 3,040
    edited January 15

    That's my point. If the gens are the problem, why say "we need to change ruin yo see that". If they know, or believe, just disable the perk and prove it.

    I literally said they can prove its gens, and not that ruin was a problem, and they wont change it back.


    Your quote "gens are the culprit, so they will change gens, not ruin" is 100% false. Theyve already changed ruin.

    Also, wheres the quote on them saying that they're looking at gen speeds after the change? Someone else claimed it in another thread and theres still no link.

  • Archimedes5000Archimedes5000 Member Posts: 438
    edited January 15

    "Would you rather nerf toolboxes or decrease gen speeds" I think that was the name of the thread.

    They had to change ruin because it was used in like 80% of the matches and you couldnt even see how gens work without ruin. And reduced gen times WITH old ruin would be op, so they have to do one at a time.

  • CarlosyluCarlosylu Member Posts: 1,759

    The problem here is that people have different perceptions of a win...

    Take me for example, red ranks both killer and surv, xbox.

    For me, if 2 got killed on both sides it's a tie, but, as survivor, a win is when 3 or more escaped, not if I escaped, not if 2 escaped and I was one of them, and as killer, a 3k+ is a win, but not if I didn't get at least a black pip so....

    It's more complex than a 50/50 survival/kill rate.

    Killers feel survivors are OP cause they can't 3k+ in 50% on the games (which would mean they "win" 50% of the time), whyle on the other hand, survivors have different understanding of a win, weather if it's based on if you pipped, survived, how many survived, etc.

    In my OPINION, as a red rank in both roles, survivor is WAY easier than killer, don't get me wrong, I still pip and 3k+ almost every game as killer, but it takes more of an effort than when I'm survivor

  • VincentRedfieldVincentRedfield Member Posts: 285

    After you killers posted Tru3 videos 87 times do you think anyone cares whether you like the stats or not? 😂😂😂

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 2,155

    In that case it would be better to take a look at and change something of the survivors objective in general, not buff ruin back to how it was.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 2,432

    I play both sides actually because I like to know what I'm talking about ^^ gives me satisfaction honestly..tru3 has been one of the most positive influences in the game and yet people like to discredit him simply because he knows better..but I cant blame them..certain people have it too cozy right now

  • VincentRedfieldVincentRedfield Member Posts: 285

    Yup. Which is why killer players would gladly take a single Tru3 video over Dev stats. Delusional.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 2,432

    Delusional..delusional is taking the stats even the devs say dont treat as anything as the word of law in this game..that sir..is the definition of it

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 3,211
    edited January 15

    If one side only had changes for the benefit of others yes it would show bias but your post clearly shows things which have changed for both sides this says the opposite of a biased mindset.

    Balance isn't easy and the game constantly shifts with players adapting to what at the game now is. The Ruin change was just one in a long line and certainly won't be the last.

    DS originally didn't have the need for anyone to struggle and was changed to obsession only instand and the others struggling. Dribbling while a very soft counter didn't help versus an swf as they would easily negate it being useful. It also could be used from the start without any conditions so a killer would have to wonder even on the first down. Enduring used to be another help but it made the perk practically useless. If they truly wanted DS to be an anti tunnel mechanic it does makes sense to allow it to gain some actual distance. While I think DS needs some extra conditions like half the counter timer after someone is hooked if they are not slugged.

    Every survivor change has been with the benefit of killers in mind. Mains do tend to only see one as justified but not the other. The thing is we aren't privy to the stats which show this and never have been. Each time a change is made the side it affects blows up the forum with complaints.

    The Insta heals main focus was not to remove it from the game but to give the killer some time to work around. The main issue with Insta heals of the past imo were the ability to instantly pick someone up by tapping them when downed without them needing to recover.

    The meta changing isn't bad and it shows players are just adapting to changes which is what should happen in reality. Each change to aside has shown this to happen and what happens is the players move onto the next thing they want nerfed. It's been happening since day one and I don't see that ever changing.

    Post edited by twistedmonkey on
  • VincentRedfieldVincentRedfield Member Posts: 285

    Taking devs stats vs a few videos of Tru3 is delusional?

    Get your head checked kid.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 2,432

    I'd reccomend not calling people kid..makes you look immature..

  • kurgan8282kurgan8282 Member Posts: 137

    but they get notification that there is ruin going and see gen regressing the moment they stop doing the gen, it will be really simply to find out,just tap the gen see what happens and then go cleanse totem in couple minutes to remove something that is not even so strong, basically this ruin, as it is now,is basically a non-perk...especially it being an hex...

  • EverflowingRiverEverflowingRiver Member Posts: 336

    Then why does Merriam Webster list an easy as am antonym for frustrate?

  • Karl_ChildersKarl_Childers Member Posts: 490
    edited January 15

    Guess you didn’t read where peanits explains why it’s 80% and that rank 1 escape rate was actually 43%. It’s been explained many times that it was due to counting the rank AFTER the game. So only survivors who escaped basically were being counted as rank 1.

  • woundcowboywoundcowboy Member Posts: 316

    So if new survivors also struggle with old Ruin, what’s the difference? One of the reasons you gave justifying the nerf was that it was unfair to new players. Shouldn’t the take away here be that new players will struggle no matter what?

  • RivynRivyn Member Posts: 765

    For two matches. Then they learn what's going on, and New Ruin becomes a wasted perk slot. Honestly, I don't see why you keep pushing this narrative that new players are idiots. A few matches is all it takes to learn what perks are in effect. A quick google search will lead them to the wiki and forums giving indepth descriptions. We all did it, so will they. Not to mention the 'it's a late game Hex' spill.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 6,276

    The only misleading aspect of this graph is that rank 1's have an 80% escape rate. The reason for this is that if you do NOT escape, there is a high chance you will depip at rank 1 and therefore your escape (or lack thereof) will count towards rank 2 not rank 1.

    The rest of the graph is pretty spot on and not misleading. There is an exception for rank 1 and that's it.

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 2,053
    edited January 15

    If you want to cite a dictonary you might as well look for the multiple definitions of "easy"

  • AlmoAlmo Member, Dev Posts: 494
    edited January 15

    At the risk of getting into an argument, I'll point out that when I was a new player (so speaking for myself, not anyone else), Ruin would have really thrown me for a loop.

    For my first... I don't know... ten games or more, I couldn't even reliably find generators. I just assumed everyone else knew where they were because they had memorized the maps. I didn't know about the procedural map generator.

    I am certain that in the panic that ensued when the Killer approached I would not have noticed that little "zap" effect when you leave a gen under new Ruin. I did not know generators regressed over time; I thought a kick caused instantaneous damage, not damage over time.

    So I stand by my assertion that many (maybe even most) new players (let's say for their first 10 games) will have trouble with new Ruin, partially because they probably won't even know it's happening. At the very least, they'll underestimate its effect.

    It's very easy to forget as an experienced player how shallow* the learning curve is for this game. It's especially easy to misunderstand how hard it is to learn for some players if you're an exceptional type who read all the perk text on the tally screen their first couple games and came up to speed more quickly. :) I regularly see posts like "Man, I been in this game for 2000 hours and I just figured out that the perks are alphabetized in the menu!" (true story, that one)

    Even so, this was not the only reason we changed Ruin. Let's recall that I gave three reasons in the dev notes. Two of them were "The passive nature of the gameplay pressure it provides means that there is a huge amount of potential with very little effort or risk on behalf of The Killer," and "Its inconsistency due to the random nature of the appearance interval of skill checks."

    *When people say "Steep learning curve", that's backward. Learning curves are time spent on the X-axis, and skill on the Y-axis. If you have to play a long time to get good, then the improvement line is not steep. If it is steep, it means you get good with little time investment. :D

  • _VTK__VTK_ Member Posts: 54

    It's been said again and again that these stats were incorrect, so it makes no sense quoting them. The correct escape rates can be found in the latest stats:


  • PereliePerelie Member Posts: 396

    So why do you never look at making killer less frustrating?

  • WeckWeck Member Posts: 2,314

    What people mean with steep learning curves, is not the skill of the player vs time spent. It's the EXPECTED skill level vs time spent.

    Some games, get technical fast, like dark souls fpr instance. Others, do not, like pokemon

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