Maybe the better question is why do killers feel the need to slug freshly-unhooked survivors and commit the unpardonable sin of "tunneling" in the first place.
Could it be that generator speeds are so ridiculous that putting a survivor on the ground, even one I can't pick up, slows the game down as Monto would say "just a little bit" occupying at least one other survivor to go for the heal?
What's moronic about DS is it's supposed to fix "tunneling" except we already have a perk for that in borrowed time.
Fixing DS would fix a symptom, not the actual disease. I literally grabbed someone off a generator to start a game as wraith, we're talking 40 seconds max, thanks to two survivors on the same gen and a BNP, a generator POPPED. No chase, no multiple hits, literally grab and hook, 20% of objectives completed in that time.
So yes, I'm going to tunnel and slug you off the hook, and if one of you is on the hook and the other is slugged I'm going to proxy camp you too, and if I don't think that's enough I'm bringing Mori's so I can tell you what I think of your DS as I'm killing you in a way I can only describe as highly disturbing.
And it will not stop until some of this nonsense is addressed.
Just woke up and saw how much this thread blew up. I'm going to run down some of the counter arguments I've been seeing as to why DS shouldn't be nerfed.
"It counters tunneling"
This is very common misconception from people who don't understand killer priorities. If in a game as killer, you know that at least 1 out of the 4 survivors will instantly escape your grasp after an unhook, you'll want to get rid of that second chance as soon as possible.
Because although losing a survivor can falter your game momentum, it's far better to eat the stun early on when if the gates are opened the survivor will simply run towards them after the stun and get a free escape. And once you've eaten a stun, you know which of the 4 survivors no longer has DS, encouraging you to tunnel them further as to get your momentum back.
DS, essentially, promotes tunnelling. It doesn't counter it at all.
"It punishes campers"
Ignoring the fact that some individuals see existing on the map as camping, this is also false. Say it's the end game and you've got someone hooked. Both the gates are open and you have no idea where the other survivors are.
Why would you leave the hook? It is only strategically sound decision to make if you want a kill. Camping is the only viable option.
Now say that despite you camping the person on the hook they are saved in your face and immediately downed again. How is it far that they should then get a free escape because the killer was playing optimally?
in this scenario, it is physically impossible to down someone else because the gates are already opened and if you can't insta-down anyone they'll just run to gates after getting injured. Why, then, should picking up the only person that it makes sense to down result in the person getting a free escape?
True, in some cases killers in-optimally decide to camp when they could patrol gens. But even then camping already has a counter that existed way before DS.
Doing gens while the killer isn't pressuring them.
Deciding to unhook in the killer's face should not be rewarded. Doing your objective should.
"It helps solo players when they have bad team mates"
I'll agree that it can be frustrating as hell some idiot unhooks me directly in front of the killer. But punishing the killer for capitalising on survivor mistakes isn't the way to fix this.
In my opinion, dbd should be balanced around 4 player communication and completely close the gap between solo players and 4-man squads.
Keeping DS in it's current state, a state that can be just as easily abused by a single player as it can 4, just promotes stale gameplay and further sours the already boring survivor perk meta.
"You're just a bad killer. Go after someone else and stop tunneling"
As much of a straw man as this seems, I've seen this "argument" fairly often in the forums.
Needless to say that anyone who uses it has their opinion on the matter automatically voided.
Ad Hominem's don't equal good points. Stop using them and try to understand the game better before making stupid statements.
"DS just needs some changes to balance it out. The locker tech isn't the problem."
One of the more reasonable arguments, but still wrong.
Ever since DS has been released it has been broken. Giving a survivor a free escape without a drawback in any context is objectively bad design.
Can you imagine if there was a killer perk that automatically downed survivors who tried to repair gens once per match with no drawbacks?
That's DS. A perk that punishes the killer for doing their job correctly and rewards the survivor for making mistakes.
The locker tech is just compounding the problem of how DS is designed.
"Just make it so that DS deactivates once the survivor starts performing and action like repairing or healing"
While I agree that this is a step in the right direction, it still doesn't fix the problem of DS becoming a free escape during the end game.
This could also be easily abused by survivors that deliberately body block after getting saved so the killer has to wait out the timer anyway, or just eat the stun. Speaking of which...
"Just eat the stun"
I've already mentioned just how bad eating a stun is for your game momentum as a killer. This logic is like saying "just get downed after you're exposed by MYC". Except MYC actually has a specific requirement to activate that the killer has to go out of their way to ensure it does.
Whereas DS has such an easy to activate requirement that anyone, no matter how bad, will still be able to waste the killer's time by making mistakes. Something that they should actively avoid doing.
"DS isn't even a problem"
This is the last one I'll address for now.
If you genuinely think this, you don't understand the game on a fundamental level.
Giving a particular side, in any game, rewards for messing up makes the game stale and boring because there's less incentive to perform well and improve.
A well coordinated team of survivors doesn't even need perks to completely ruin 9-10 killers day. But the existence of DS makes it so that the same can be true of people who have no idea what they're doing.
In short, not only does the locker tech with DS desperately need to go, the perk needs a massive drawback for the power it offers.
Something that will affect survivors both during the early and end game.
Well that's all she wrote. Thanks for making it this far. I never expected my post would get this much attention.
A simple fix would be to bring back the juggle if you grab the survivor but only a single juggle.
If you pick them up from the ground, it works like it usually does but if your able to grab the survivor from a locker, gen, while unhooking etc it should give you a chance to drop the survivor.
I think this would fix the majority scenarios where survivors abuse the perk.
System decided to copy my comment from earlier.
1) It's core design is to counter tunnelling, that we can't deny. It's supposed to punish a Killer if they pursue a player who was recently unhooked.
Currently, it is used for more than countering tunnelling.
2) It unintentionally counters camping. It's not designed to counter camping, but it will help a Survivor to escape from a camped situation.
3) You're looking at this from the wrong angle. You ask "Why should the Killer be punished for Survivor mistakes?", but ignore "Why should the unhooked Survivor be punished for another Survivor's mistake?".
This is why DS was designed to be strong. Solo Survivors need a chance to get out of the situation that they've been unfairly dropped into. Yes, it's unfair to the Killer who wants to tunnel, but that's why it's an anti-tunnel perk.
4) The person who posted that statement is an idiot.
5) There is a drawback of having to be hooked to activate it (don't know why this is glossed over). A Killer equivalent perk would be MYC.
Balance changes are needed, and once applied the Locker + DS combo won't be an issue.
6) It punishes the Survivor for doing anything else other than being chased.
7) The statement misses some detail. If you can catch the Survivor easily, eat the stun. If not, chase someone else. Eating the stun is a valid option, but only against some Survivors.
8) DS needs some balance changes, most of the community agrees on that.
Didn't even tunnel. Hook one in basement. His friend wants to "suicide", run behind me and unhook him. After that this guy hide in locker for one minute and DC after i grab him out.
Good odds - while me waiting for two survs in basement, only two gens is completed. But yes, DS locker abuser should be fixed.
as far as number 3 goes because for survivors its a team game? If I play Overwatch and i'm playing support and my tank is out of position I'm punished by getting killed in literally any other game most people are sane and realize that's a part of the team aspect.
What comes to my mind on this one is, that we always talk about counterplay. And if slugging is counterplay to DS, that is simply removed by entering lockers.
"If you decide to waste it like that" is exactly the point. Then it is not an anti tunnel perk anymore, it becomes a mobile pallet with 5 second stun. With new toolboxes that means like free 16% gen progression.
@Vampire @deadbyhitbox this would not be a good solution. A typical scenario is the hook exchange. Killer hits before and after unhook. Could do the hook exchange now but with your change it would allow to go after the unhhoked and down him. Then get back to the downed saver and hook him, negating the DS of the unhooked.
What if you in the 1 minute mark hook someone else? It's still tunnelling the fact that i went for the guy that was unhooked 30 seconds ago while in mean time i hooked somebody else?
First off, I want to thank you for actually taking the time and patience to write up some civil counter-points. This forum needs more people like you.
Now onto addressing your actual arguments.
Here is the main reason why I loathe DS on a conceptual level.
As a killer, if someone is farmed right in front of me and I want to win, I am going to down the farmed person. Not only are they already injured, but they're now 1 hook closer to death. For my objective to be completed in the most efficient way possible I have to target them.
DS punishes me for doing my job efficiently.
I think we can all agree that getting camped, farmed, and tunnelled sucks and is generally boring to have happen. But adding in a free-escape perk doesn't fix the main issue as to why these actions happen in the first place.
Agreed. I only brought this up because I saw other people use this as an argument.
But that's the thing, survivors shouldn't be seen as singular, they should be seen as a collective.
A farmer unhooking in the killer's face is harming themselves just as much as the team mate they're dooming. Losing a fellow survivors means there's 1 less person to distract or do gens, drastically reducing everyone else's chance for survival.
If a survivor is un-safely unhooked, every other survivor is punished because it is their job to work together as a team. If one of them suffers, they all suffer.
I've already stated how I want communication added in so solo players can better coordinate and allow the game to be better balanced around a team of survivors rather than 4 randoms.
But the "drawback" only activates when the survivor makes a mistake that leads them to getting hooked.
MYC activates only after the killer has played efficiently. DS activates when the survivor has played poorly.
Like I said, this would help fix DS being used in the early game. But after the gates are open it goes right back to punishing the killer for playing efficiently. Because once they are open, what else are you going to do but be chased?
At no point during a game should a player be punished for performing well.
If the killer manages to find, hit and down a survivor 30 seconds after they were unhooked, why should they then be forced to either give them a free escape or slug them for the remaining 30 seconds?
I'll admit that slugging them still allows for pressure to be applied on gens and other survivors, but not only is it boring for the survivor, it still isn't as effective as putting them back on hook, since that is the fastest way to both kill survivors and apply pressure.
There's also the chance that they are running Unbreakable, which completely stunts the killer's game momentum even though they played well.
At this point I honestly don't know how much of the community even cares at this point. I've seen my fair share of players that seem to be using a version of dbd from an alternate reality, and have little to no understanding of how the game is played.
Regardless, I hope those that do care are sane enough to agree with this.
Just to the point with the survivors being seen as collective. I don't understand how this has becoming so popular, but unhooks are done so inefficiently. It is so more common to go for unsecure insta unhooks than to make use of the minute you have before next hook state starts. You can do half a gen and still get there in time. I even see people hop of a gen the second someone gets downed, even if I run Prove Thyself and we could finish the gen in 20 seconds.
And I think, this behavior somehow has pushed a lot of killers to be at least proxy camping, because they literally know there is someone else near the hook, because it is just the case in 90% I really think camping would not be such a big problem if survivors were not so greedy for saves.
Usually when surviver jumps in locker i wait untill crows comes up to the locker since you cant use head on when birds are above you LOL
First off referring to the game as a "Job" you don't have a job in the game, you're playing a game, please try and remember that.
You don't go for the unhooked survivor because it is efficient, you go for the unhooked survivor because it is easier, please use accurate wording instead of trying to dress up your poor plays as a tactic. When you make the choice to go for the unhooked then you have made the assessment that they may have BT and on top of that they may have DS but STILL you go for what you have perceived as the easy option and then when you get stopped by a perk you come here to cry about it being unfair
"Adding in a free escape doesn't address the issue". This escape is literally there because playing games against killers like you is boring as [BAD WORD]. They have put in Borrowed Time and DS to assist with the desperate camping/tunnelling that a large number of killer players use. Even more laughable is players do this when there are still 5 gens to go.
I can see a predictable "standard survivor main" comment coming so I'll point out I play both sides in red ranks. I have never camped and never tunnelled. It is a game and when you do either of those things you're removing the fun from a game from the person you have done it to, which in turn will push people away from the game for good.
The idea of it being a "Free escape" in EGC is also dumb. If by free you mean the survivors have already done all of their work in the trial and you haven't managed to stop them then yes that is "free" but let's be honest all this is aimed at is the fact you think you should be allowed to cling on to this desperate camped kill in EGC because you have lost and it will make you feel better. The alternative is, remind yourself that you're playing a game and move on to the next round.
The community on this game is grotesque. The us vs them mentality and the desperate crying on the forums about ANYTHING the side you don't play has is so depressingly sad. IT'S A GAME!!!!
The only people who are even remotely normal are the ones who play both sides and just see it as a casual game to have fun on. They should bring in a quota of you must play at least 33% of both sides at least that way the killer mains would stop crying about every single perk and item survivors have and survivor mains can stop moaning about NOED.
Final comment just to really try and hammer the point home- IT. IS. A. GAME
You are right, it is a game and games should be fun. If certain mechanics in a game gets abused then it ceases to be fun.
I don't have an issue with DS or bt if they are used as they should be. But if they get used in an abusive manner then it becomes unfun.
Do try it! It's quite fun. Just get off the hook. Go find the killer. And do a gen RIGHT IN THEIR FACE. Then when they come to you. Hop in a locker. You either get to progress a gen while the "F off" or they eat your DS. Much fun. And fair too. To punish the killer by allowing you to do whatever you want for 90 seconds. As long as there is a locker nearby!
Abusive??? Give yourself a shake and wake up.
extremely offensive and insulting.
"the goalkeeper was sent off for using abusive language"
engaging in or characterized by habitual violence and cruelty.
If you ever feel that either of those 2 definitions of "abusive" apply to the use of a perk in a game. Switch the game off, go outside and get some air.
I absolutely agree.
Lol you are taking things too literal.
Replace abusive with " as not intended"
So if those perks are used in a manner that was not intended in it's original design, the game ceases to be fun.
This right here. .eat it early.
It does force the killer to ignore the objective to not get stabbed for not tunneling whatsoever
I am being literal to point 9ut how overly dramatic your wording and feelings about a perk are. Where is the description of what is allowed with all perks and what isn't?
There isn't one, because a perk can be used however the person who used the slot for it wants. I don't tell a killer what perks he can or can't use, nor do I say how he uses them. Yet as a killer you want to be able to tell a survivor how and when they can use their perks. The only behaviours in this game that I think are scummy and pathetic are camping and tunnelling. Other than that use whatever perks you want. Don't care.
If you want to down someone who has just been unhooked, that's fine too. It becomes scummy when you pick them up and put them back on the hook even though it makee more sense to leave them and chase someone else because then someone has to come and heal them off the floor but most killers can't see this for some reason.
I'm not being overly dramatic, I'm simply making a point.
So are you saying that there isn't a single perk, add-on or offering that you might have a problem with?
And it's interesting that scummy killer tactics are not ok but scummy survivor tactics are fine.
A scummy survivor tactic? Because they are using a single use perk? What a monster that survivor is! I wonder if killers would enjoy having single use perks. BBQ only works on first hook. Ruin only works on the first gen it is applied to. I guarantee that would cause a great deal of moaning from people who only play killer but STILL they moan that a survivor has a single use perk.
A killer finds a lobby instantly, there is no queue. A killer gets to spend the entire time in a game,nothing removes them from it. A survivor on the other hand has to queue for 10mins and then potentially get a killer who camps and tunnels them out of the game in next to no time. Yet, you think that behaviour is fine and isnt scummy in the slightest. Nothing a survivor can do takes the killer out of the game and forces them back in to a queue for 10mins.
The only add on that I think is completely stupid is the iridescent head add on for the huntress. It is always paired with the belt add on for 3 instadown attempts and it works the same every time. Get up close to a survivor and down them in one. Zero skill to it. If there was a range limit on the insta down I wouldn't care about that add on either.
As for perks not a single perk bothers me, no offerings bother me and the aforementioned 1 add on I think is BS but at the same time. I see the game as a game and not some competitive life or death situation so I shrug it off.
Killers don't have any one time perks so in that regard you are right. I could probably think of one though...how bout "the first gen that gets completed gets regressed by 100% instead" It would be stupidly powerful but it's a one time use so it's ok right?
I never said killers that camp and tunnel wasnt scummy...in fact I described it as a scummy tactic.
So you are essentially saying that because survivors need to queue for 10 minutes, that makes it ok for them to use scummy tactics?...otherwise why bring it up?
And finally even you have something in this game you'd like to change and I'm not here to just say "deal with it, it's in the game", I'd listen to you without assuming the worst. Changes happen all the time in this game and they are for the better.
Nurse got changed due to how powerful she was, insta-heals got nerfed for the same reason, ruin Nerf, the upcoming toolbox nerfs and the list goes on. Regardless of it being a killer or survivor mechanic.
And now DS is in the discussion and a constructive reply would be more appreciative, I don't want to completely change it. I simply want stop it being used in a scummy manner.
Except being hit with DS is 5 seconds, not an entire generator being undone. So your idea is completely different to the actuality of what DS currently is.
I didn't say that a survivor couldn't do scummy tactics because they have been in a queue. I said they can't really do anything "scummy" because nothing removes the killer from the game within a minute or so. The killer gets a full game no matter what. A survivor if they ate unlucky can be grabbed off a gen and put on a hook within 30 seconds and either never gmcomenoff that hook or when they do the killer that has stood next to them the whole time tunnels the [BAD WORD] out of them in a desperate attempt to ruin their game.
You have given no evidence of what a scummy survivor play is but it seems to be using their perks in a way that you and other killer mains don't want them used? Yet those survivors aren't allowed to tell you how to use yours.
Instaheals being nerfed was an over the top action brought on by killer mains crying. Toolbox nerf another over the top action brought on by killer mains crying. As for the nurse, I never really use her on PC but on console I still use her in red ranks and don't have much of an issue so the changes didn't really bother me.
The iridescent head is irritating yes but like I said, I just shrug it off and get on with the game. I don't post endlessly on here crying at my PC about how an iridescent head has destroyed the game for me and how I will quit unless they are changed. That's the kind of reaction a killer main has to every single thing.
RUIN GOT CHANGED, I QUIT!!!! etc etc.
The fact is people who play one half of the game are in no position to bitch and moan about what the other side has as they never see it from the other side. They just want the game to be easier for them because they want to win. "I shouldn't have to make a decision at a locker when I'm tunnelling someone, I should just be able to put that person back on the hook because I want to win"
Sorry I misunderstood, it's ok for a survivor to play scummy because they might not get a full game but a killer will. Ok gotcha...
You never asked for an example of scummy survivor play but I'm happy to provide you with one. In this scenario you've already hooked a survivor, you go off to find another one. You run into one and he's running towards the hook, you smack him and he speeds away and gets the unhook. You have two choices, go for the rescuer or rescuee, in this scenario your not playing scummy so you go for the rescuer. The survivor that got unhooked has started to bodyblock you as you try your best to ignore him but the rescuer is getting away, finaly you smack the rescuee and he has bt. You've lost the other survivor so you go after the rescuee but he jumps in the locker...no you have to deal with DS even though you had no intention to deal with it...does any of that sounds scummy to you?
I play both sides and although I do favor killer, I've experienced survivor enough to know how it feels to be camped and tunnelled etc
Guess its killers turn to say "just loop 4 head" (get it because survivors after ruin nerf said to apply pressure yet are so quick to defend a perk they abuse). And i play both sides and survivor mains crying is why we got ruin nerf freddy nerf legion dead and nurse dead. And now i keep seeing billy which survivors really have no reason to complain about.
DS sells toxic nea, meg, feng, and yui skins. They’re not gonna nerf money.
Hey, just last night got one of my best DS experiences in my whole DBD career.
Played Pig, Claudette that I hooked not so long ago was unhooked and ran to the box that happened to be right next to me. When I've approached her to scare her off she didn't budge. Why? Well, that's obvious, I just down her and keep going to the place where I was going to in the first place. Just some time later the same Claudette rans at me and denies me a down on another survivor. Alright, I can take a trade, what gives. But wait, here's your 5 seconds of shame for tunneling. What happened? Apparently that Claudette got downed, got recovered and had enough time to reach me before DS ran out. Tunneling in it's finest. But that's not only thing why that game was memorable. In the same game I had two Ashes with identical skin. Nobody of them healed when there only 2 gens left. Wanna guess why? There is a certain perk that makes it safe to do. But I'm drifting off. After hooking another person (4th one), I've come to the place where Ash was unhooked (surveillance also showed me that somebody touched a gen nearby), I've seen an injured Ash running from that place, so I guess that's an unhooked guy and walked to the gen, made a grab (accidentally, but whatever). Well, in this days of dedicated servers there is only one type of grabs exists: when survivor lets you grab them to activate DS. It was second Ash, that has exactly the same skin and also injured. Seems balanced. Games like this not happen often, but when they happen, they really make me apprentice DS strength.