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Does DS not invite tunneling?

ZoneDymoZoneDymo Member Posts: 1,946

We all been in this scenario, you hook someone, doors are open, you play fairly and look around a bit, they unhook.

You come back and now there is one wounded and one full health.

Hitting the full health in this case means an ez escape for both.

Hitting the wounded means they are downed, now they are crawling to the exit, let them crawl and they will escape, pick them up and you get DSed and they escape.


So really, if you want to prevent that all too common scenario (and I think we all agree it is pretty bs that there is nothing you can do about it as killer) you have to tunnel early on to atleast make sure people used up their DS before that can happen right?

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Comments

  • Demonl3yDemonl3y Member Posts: 1,416

    I often get in a scenario like this. Its really unfair and painfull. :/

  • LALYTHIALALYTHIA Member Posts: 1,657

    Nice, one additional counter to DS. Sounds like its even more fair than ever. 😂

  • ZoneDymoZoneDymo Member Posts: 1,946
    edited April 16

    Then why dont I or my friends ever run these perks and generally do fine?

    Heck there is a mechanic in principle, wait a bit untill the killer is far away and/or busy before you unhook.

    EDIT:

    Also on the first part, its not about players who always tunneled, its about those that do not that get punished for not doing it in the manner discribed, its about DS basically telling killers they should tunnel just so they dont have an issue with it later on when it matters more.

    Post edited by ZoneDymo on
  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    I haven't been in this situation. Just putting it out there.

    But it's as PrettyFaceKate said. IF they are dead-set on tunnelling, then they'll eat a DS. I'm still going to run it to try and dissuade some killers from trying to tunnel me.


    Also, problem with your statement there @Sairek, what happens when you run an Obsession perk? And what if I'm running DS, not to abuse the perk, but to not get tunnelled?

  • MooksMooks Member Posts: 2,012

    Well, that scenario is pretty situational though, and maybe those survs are just escaping. There is no shame in not getting that one kill in the end.

    even though it’s apparently your job to kill, that’s not necessarily true. This is a game, have fun, don’t obsess about this one potential kill, you got the hook and probably some more before in the match, you had chases, you injured and downed survivors.

  • PrettyFaceKatePrettyFaceKate Member Posts: 1,704

    Regarding your first point, maybe you're lucky. I have no way to tell in your specific case. On a macro level, is that the experience of the majority of players? Doubtful.

    Regarding your second point. There are multiple ways for killers to work around that. Mobility killers can rush back to the hook and leave whatever they were doing. Stealth killers can camp and survivors often have little way of knowing it, especially solos. On a side note, those strategies even counter BT.

    I just find the notion that DS promotes tunneling to be a little suspicious, as if tunneling wasn't prevalent pre-DS and as if slugging the unhooked isn't a common tactic exactly because of DS. If the perk didn't exist, would the unhooked be slugged/let go, or rather immediately re-hooked? I suspect it would be the latter.

    Just my 2 cents, for what they're worth.

  • ZoneDymoZoneDymo Member Posts: 1,946
    edited April 16

    That is not the point, its about a situation unfolding that you have no control over, you can see what is happening but cant do anything about it, that is what is so lame about it.

    And its not nearly as situational as you seem to insinuate, having someone on the hook when the doors open is like... super common, and if you played fairly the entire game, chances are high they have their DS still, which is what this is about.

    DS in an attempt to make it more fair for survivors in certain situations, makes it unfair for killers in certain situations, meaning to killer would have to play in an unfun manner in order to keep some control, that is the point of this thread.


    Suspicious? I explain quite objectively what the problem is, I dont want to tunnel because I know its not fun for the other side so I avoid doing so at all times, but its not very fun for me to rob me of a kill in the end purely because I played in a fun for all manner and now I dont have an answer for the situation infront of me.

    I mean, a simple solution would be DS no longer functioning once the End Game Collapse is in effect for example, but that is not really what this thread is about, its about how DS creates a powerful uncounterable safe zone for survivors using it when the killer plays in a way that is fun for the survivors.

    Its about how a perk goes from helping a helpless survivor from a tunneling killer, to providing a position of power against a killer that does not tunnel. Instead of helping the helpless it then punishes the fun and fair, not to be too dramatic about it.

  • MooksMooks Member Posts: 2,012

    It’s a situation that you have no control over - okay but this is a game and again just one situation (even if common).

    There are many situations on both sides like this but no need to justify unfair play. You did not get that kill. The survivors have to meet many criterias to get in this situation, they need to have all gens done, a gate open, being hooked somewhat near the gate and have DS equipped and not used.


    in another way - getting camped is pretty common and you as surv have no control over that situation. And? Most people here will say „just let yourself get camped, others do gens and escape“

  • ZoneDymoZoneDymo Member Posts: 1,946

    camping imo is more akin to the killer just throwing the game, they dont actually want to play because well they arnt...

    its closer to survivors just running up to the killer and letting themselves die, I mean sure you can ... not kill them at that point and then we just all sit there nicely afking, otherwise you kill them, nobody gets points or pips or anything and its kinda the same scenario.

    The scenario I describe however is one of actually playing the game and having no answer for something just because you played nicely hence it invites tunneling as that is the only way to get rid of DS so this cannot happen.

    But lets not go back and forth on this, your stance is that its ok that something is unfolding infront of you that you cant do anything about because its a game and I disagree with that myself, so lets just agree to disagree.

  • MooksMooks Member Posts: 2,012

    You are basically asking for a free kill because you played nicely though.

    and even then there are mechanics for you - bring rancor for example, or NOED and go for the unhooker alternately Make Your Choice. Or camp when exit-gates are open, most survivors don’t even complain about camping in this situation. There is plenty you can do.

    or just tunnel before the gens get done. It’s not against the rules. But don’t act surprised if the survivors don’t cheer about getting tunneled.

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    Well, I'm one of those freaks that actually trys to heal up in that time and get away. I also don't play top tier killers much, if ever and I seem to do just fine.

    And I've had idiots run at me for an obvious DS play. They were left on the ground bleeding.

  • Chewy102Chewy102 Member Posts: 478

    Now, I might sound to be talking out by backside or being one in general. But playing better should be what first prevents kill rushing instead of a perk.

    That hooked Survivor should learn how to better loop or evade the Killer to prevent being tunneled. And the other Survivor/s saving the hooked should learn when it is safe/unsafe to do so, or at least be a distraction to give the hooked a chance to get away.


    Perks shouldn't be a replacement for player skill. This goes for both Killer and Survivor, but it does tend to be Survivor perks that give more second chances that have little to no counters and/or warnings. This (from my point of view) does make Survivor players a bit on the side of potato quality more often than not when Survivors have perks that grants them "skill" without needing to learn it.

  • ZoneDymoZoneDymo Member Posts: 1,946

    "or just tunnel before the gens get done. It’s not against the rules. But don’t act surprised if the survivors don’t cheer about getting tunneled."

    yeah....that is literally what this thread is about...

    And as if survivors cheer you on for running NOED lol or Ranchor for that matter.

    Im not asking for a free kill at all, I already downed the person, the kill is pretty much in the bag, the work to attain it has been done for 90%, its about not having an answer for DS in tha...ya know what, never mind, I cant keep going over this back and forth and just repeating myself, like I said before, lets not continue this as...well for one I dont think you truely understand the problem when I read this last reply but other then that I think we just have a different view on it...and yet we dont judging by your last suggestion.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 2,917
    edited April 16

    I’ve played with and without DS and I can tell you a tunneler will be a tunneler. I’ve actually heard streamers utter the words “Oh there is no obsession so I can tunnel”.

    Ive been left alone when I had DS and I’ve been tunneled when I didn’t. So I’m going to go with it could go either way.

    No DS doesn’t mean that luxuries such as tunneling and slugging aren’t at the killer’s disposal anytime they feel like using it.

  • ZoneDymoZoneDymo Member Posts: 1,946

    agreed but different sort of discussion all together.

    Dead Hard was made because of No Mither, to have a shield against the 1 health state.... ended up that nobody runs No Mither (I know, shocking) and people jsut run DS as an extra safety net.

    THis goes the same for DS BT and Adren tbh and especially in combination.

    But again I dont really want this thread derailed by that, you can make your own if you want to discuss this issue, I will say though that I have been playing for the past week now with my 3 friends SWF with non of us running any perks or items at all and we are doing more the fine, rather painful when you think about what those perks previously mention grant the users.

  • RaulilloRaulillo Member Posts: 179

    DS do not force you to tunnel, at the very least encourages to slugging but that's all. In the situation you describe, if the unhook it's far enough from the open exit gate you can down the unhooked and just wait. Depending what killer are you playing you can work around DS in that specific situation, picking him in open areas with huntress or trap the escape route with trapper or the hag.

    I think tunneling is the best strategy that's why DS and BT exist, to make that strategy riskier. As simple as that. Every time you find a difficult mechanic that you don't know how to work around, tunneling will be the best option besides the risk because it's almost always the best strategy. Not the funniest one, but the best without any doubt. You will have all people dead with 1-2 gens left if you slug or a 3K if you don't.

  • ZoneDymoZoneDymo Member Posts: 1,946

    Thanks for the reply but I think you misunderstood, or I guess I did not make myself clear enough.

    This is not about a suggestion that DS should dissuade killers from Tunneling but that killers who were always going to still just do.

    This is about how DS seems to do the opposite, invite tunneling from killers who normally dont because they know how unfun it is through playing both sides (like myself)

    The argumentation for it is in the original post and I made several replies about it as well with maybe more detail.

  • AneurysmAneurysm Member Posts: 1,806

    Yes and no.

    As others have said although DS is a very popular perk you do get games as survivor where there's no DS or any other obsession perk and the killer will often take full advantage of that.

    On the other hand as killer I generally try not to tunnel but if someone runs at me after being unhooked and jumps into a locker or hits me with it after 59 seconds and I've already hooked someone else I have no issue with speeding up their removal from the game.

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    Ok. So what about those times where you're on a hook in the open, or where the killer waits just long enough to not hit the other guy, and you have all of 2 seconds to make a break for it? In a stroke of normality, you don't have Dead Hard or Sprint Burst, instead opting to take Balanced Landing or Lithe.

    Your only option is DS.


    Call it mutually assured destruction.

  • MooksMooks Member Posts: 2,012

    Okay lets act like you are not asking for the free kill because you downed someone - bring a green Mori and you got your kill. Even better: since that person was hooked 2nd time (you are saying you could have gotten DS out of the way with tunneling before) no one really complains. There are multiple ways to handle this situation.

    Or your only problem seems to be that DS exists in the first place.


    either way, please phrase your next answer again like your others, my English is not well enough to argue on THAT condescending level and I will not bother answering again.

  • ZoneDymoZoneDymo Member Posts: 1,946
    edited April 16

    Condescending..... I said we agreed... and multiple times I said the issues was just having a different view on things which cannot be solved through arguments as we just feel differently, hence I wanted to end that debate.

    No my problem is not that DS exists, I understand perfectly fine why it does, its about how it functions in certain scenario's and how it invites/requires what is imo toxic behavior (tunneling) rather then do what it was meant to do, which is protect a survivor from being tunneled to death.

  • batax90batax90 Member Posts: 879

    When i play killer i have more fun when i have kill looking at the survivor while they escape is boring even if i pip in that match for me its the same when i play survivor and i get kill even if i pip i see this as a failure i coyld not complete my objective and if this happen in multiple of game you get pissed by that even if you pip in all those game at least for me i cant talk for everyone

  • MooksMooks Member Posts: 2,012

    Well if you really just want to get rid of any potential DS before the gates are open, you can still „tunnel“ but as soon as DS got used, stop that tunnel. If no DS was used, slug the person and don’t immediately re-hook. No one will be able to call you out on tunneling this way and you get rid of any potential DS in End-Game.

    Problem is that will give survs plenty of free time, and I guess it will result in „genrush“.

  • ThatbrownmonsterThatbrownmonster Member Posts: 1,578

    If I do get hit by DS when I was tunneling it will annoy me to the point I'll tunnel the survivor on purpose

  • Chewy102Chewy102 Member Posts: 478

    That's the fault of the other Survivor. He made the mistake of making an unsafe unhook. Or both of you made a mistake of staying at the hook too long to likely heal on the spot.

    Without going into details that would make this post way too damned long, Survivors need to learn when to save or when NOT to save. DbD is a horror "survival" game and survival sometimes mean leaving someone to their fate so that you make it out if the Killer is hellbent on killing only 1 person at all costs. This then loops back into my first post of Survivors learning how to evade/avoid/loop the Killer.


    To sum it all up as short as I can.

    If Killers need to learn gameplay skill to do their job well, Survivors should learn some gameplay skill of their own to do theirs.

  • PrettyFaceKatePrettyFaceKate Member Posts: 1,704

    I see what you mean. What I'd like to point out, it's that DS becomes more powerful in the EGC because tunneling and camping become stronger as well. They're the sides of the same coin.

    The argument goes both ways. You played without tunneling throughout the match. You can still do so in the endgame. You simply choose not to. You have perfectly good reasons to change your strategy in EGC which I wouldn't even dream to question. Still, you can argue for both sides with good arguments.

    You say the perk helps a helpless survivor. Why shouldn't it help them in the endgame as well? Why should they become suddenly helpless? Again, you can argue for both sides.

    There is no rule that forces you to play 'fair' or 'unfair'. You can choose to tunnel or not, with or without DS. The matter of the fact is that without DS/BT, this game was a tunnel fest and I doubt anyone would contest that statement. You can argue that DS punishes you for playing fairly during the match. It can also be argued that killers not playing fairly punish you for making DS a necessary evil. Again, it goes both ways.


    You're not talking about your backside at all. Your points are all very valid in my book. However, there are a couple details I disagree with. If a killer wants to tunnel, they can do so and there's no amount of skills that can make up for it.

    To counter tunneling, you need skills AND perks. It's just the state of the game mechanics. You can have DS and go down 10 seconds after you escape the killer's grasp. On the flipside, you can be a god looper, but if you're tunneled and there's no DS/BT in play, chances are you'll be dead in the water more often than not with little you can do about it.

    Also, you're reasoning as if the survivors work as a coordinated team. They're not. SWF Seal Team 6 are far and a few, at least in my very personal experience as a killer at rank 1. To counter hard tunneling, some coordination is needed. Not necessarily comms, but at least the knowledge that your teammates are reliable and they know the correct plays. That simply doesn't happen often in normal games. That's why many stuff in this game is simply a pub stomper, which is not healthy imho and also why camping does work often, contrary to the parroted narrative in this forum, but that's a discussion for another time.

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    You can see where I'm coming from though, right? I shouldn't be punished because my teammate is an idiot.

  • Chewy102Chewy102 Member Posts: 478

    Co-optional gameplay. Survivors have the choice of working together or against each other.

    If someone makes a bad save, sandbag their ass. Drop a pallet in their face, block a window, lead the Killer towards them if able. You aren't being punished by the game, you are being punished by a selfish Survivor. Return the favor! You're playing solo. So look out for yourself and treat other Survivors as a means to an end just like they do with you.

    Or teach that Survivor to be better by talking it out. Your choice.


    That is one BIG reason why SWF is so strong and breaks balance so hard. It takes that co-optional gameplay and makes it nearly pure co-op.


    If the Killer wants to tunnel that bad. It should end in a lose lose. Killer gets that kill, at the cost of the game. Sooner or later that Killer should be stuck in lower ranks while the majority of Survivors move on to higher ranks leaving those low Killers behind.

    Sucks to be that one Survivor to be tunneled. But that's the ropes. It could have been anyone. It is up to each Survivor to learn how to avoid being that one poor tunneled fool while also learning how to punish Killers for overly tunneling.


    It should all feed back on each other. Survivors and Killers learning to better their skills advance to higher ranks where they belong. While other Survivors and Killers who don't bother to better their skills (and maybe depend too much on perks instead) get left behind.


    Like I saide to PigMain. DbD isn't a "team" game. It is (supposed to be) co-optional. Not 4v1 of Survivors against the Killer. But 4 1v1 games at once of each single Survivor against the Killer with the choice of working as a team, or not.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 2,917
    edited April 16

    @ZoneDymo

    The problem is you are always going to have an argument when it comes to DS because many seem to think that it is strictly an "anti-tunnel" perk... and in reality it isn't. It doesn't even do what it's suppose to half the time as many killers simply continue tunneling after the fact.

    The perk itself doesn't invite to tunnel, but if you are worried about someone having it once the gates are opened, then you need to force the survivor making the save to trade hooks. I know this isn't "fair" but you're obviously not doing your objective if you aren't finding ways/strat to get your kills.

    I think the bigger issue here is not that there in't anything you can do in the scenario you presented, it is that you want to play a certain way because you think it seems "unfair" otherwise, and quite frankly that is a bigger issue I see in the killer community in and of itself. They don't want to switch playstyles during a match because of "reasons".

    The way I see it is you gotta use what you got. When you play killer you are not in the business of trying to appease others or not disrupt their gameplay. How will you ever kill or strategize for that matter, if you always played nice? The survivors aren't going to cut you a break so why should you? This is a pvp game.

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