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2nd Chances VS Insta Downs

This is where the real comparison should be. I was reading the 50th thread this week with killers complaining about survivor second chance perks and I feel the best counter argument is all of the insta diown chances killers are given. Killers say perks like DS, BT, Unbreakable and Dead Hard reward survivors for making a mistake. Killers feel like they are cheated out of a kill when the have to hit a survivor a 3rd time before they can hook them. Well what about all the insta down powers a perks killers have? I feel cheated when I'm full health and I'm one hit by an Oni and I'm on the hook. Or vault a window and snap i'm in a trap. And while I can hit DS once a game if everything works out just right a lot of killer insta down powers last all match. The worst offender is the 'perfectly balanced' Hillbilly who can down you with his one hit saw from beginning to end with no cool down (rip). Lets look at all these unfair one hit down chances:

Base kit insta downs:Hillbilly, Cannibal, Myers, Ghost Face, Oni and Trapper (situational)

Add on insta downs: Huntress and Clown (Myers again but already in his base kit)

Perk insta downs: NOED, Devour Hope, Make Your Choice, Rancor, Haunted Grounds, Iron Maiden

Other insta down chances: Getting pulled off a Gen, Getting pulled from a locker, Getting grabbed during a hook save

So as you can see killer's have a lot of insta down chances in the game that they don't ever talk about when complaining about 2nd chance perks. So keep these in mind when a killer complains about DS or Borrowed Time being unfair. They have more than their share of get of jail free powers too.

And I know killers are going to say there is counter play to all these insta downs but there is counter play to the 2nd chance perks too.

TLDR: You can take survivor second chances perks away when you take away killer insta downs.

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Comments

  • darwinsbraindarwinsbrain Member Posts: 99

    The 2nd chance perks have drawbacks and are situational too.

  • YamaokaYamaoka Member Posts: 4,192
    edited July 2020

    Instadowns (powers) must be earned while second chance perks are used to make up for mistakes. Major difference.

  • darwinsbraindarwinsbrain Member Posts: 99

    There are matches where survivors run DS, BT, Dead Hard and Unbreakable and they never get used. Because just like in your defense of the insta downs all the 2nd chance perks require certain things to happens first, they are situational.

  • darwinsbraindarwinsbrain Member Posts: 99
  • YamaokaYamaoka Member Posts: 4,192

    He has to charge up the chainsaw allowing you to get to a window, pallet, structure that denies his chainsaw etc. Also hitting someone with the chainsaw sprint isn't too easy IF the killer has decent internet. You can easily juke the chainsaw sprint unless they're right on you for several seconds in which case you -as a survivor- messed up A LOT.

  • TheMythicalCatTheMythicalCat Member Posts: 175

    Borrowed Time: Killer needs to be near you. If they aren't near you, you don't need the perk.

    Decisive Strike: Only works off the hook. But you become unhookable for 60 seconds, even if they are on the complete opposite side of the map.

    Sprint Burst: Can't sprint everywhere. But you don't really need to.

    Lithe: Only works on Windows. Which are everywhere.

    Balanced Landing: Only works on elevated terrain. Which isn't that hard to get to in a chase.

    Unbreakable: Indeed situational, but people only really complain about it when paired with DS, where it has no counter

    MoM: No one complains about it

    Dead Hard: Needs to be injured. Which WILL happen in a chase, unless the Killer has an insta-down.

    I think that's all of them.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    Theres a huge difference. A lot of second chance perks feel like they rob the killer. Old DS, old mettle of man, dead hard, Adrenaline etc (new DS and BT are fine)

    Most instadowns are fine. Its a horror game afterall, it just adds a little extra tension.

    Haunted grounds, myers, current Bubba, devour hope, make your choice. All feel fair enough with enough counter play or restrictions on them. Theres only 2 instadowns at the moment that are cheap and make the survivor feel robbed, one is Hillbillys chainsaw the other is NOED. So one is getting addressed and NOED is basically a second chance perk itself

  • MozzieMozzie Member Posts: 618

    The difference between 2nd chances and insta downs is that one is a bonus to players who make a mistake and the other is a trade off for something else. Insta down ability's generally do not come freely. Borrowed time, DS, Sprint Burst, Adrenaline or Dead Hard have no negative affix connected with them. Unlike, No Mither or For The People which are second chance perks with built-in balance mechanics-which, in my opinion, are quite fair. With the exception of NOED, which everyone knows has direct counter play, killer's are not granted second chances. This is why killer's or people who play both sides to not correlate the two.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Any questions?

  • darwinsbraindarwinsbrain Member Posts: 99

    Your surprise VS expectation theory is laughable. Killers know when to expect second chance perks. It shouldn't come as a surprise to get hit with DS, you see there is an obsession. And people don't mind devour hope because its impressive? To get 3 hooks? Seems like BS to me, every time. And this idea that killers earn their insta downs is a joke. I know when a Ghost Face exposes me from looking at me for a few seconds with no terror radius hardly feels earned. Yes its a horror game and I'm not suggesting we get rid of insta downs, though a lot of times it does seem jnfair. Just saying that survivors start out with the expectation of being able to take a certain number of hits in a game. Sort of like lives. Killers gave a good number of ways to take some those away. Survivors have a few ways to get some back. There is counter play to all of them. Creates a little fairness and balance.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Oh yeah, another thing to look at (relating to the stacking thing) is how Expose generates value compared to Enduring.

    Expose fulfills the same niche as anti-heal perks and STBFL within a build. Specifically these perks make the Killer less vulnerable to healthy Survivors.

    Anti-heal perks do this by ensuring Survivors stay injured longer

    STBFL does this by decreasing the relative distance healthy Survivors gain on hit

    and Expose perks do this by treating healthy Survivors as injured for the purposes of basic attacks

    That is to say, Expose is the counter to healing, if a Survivor never heals then Expose will never get value out of that Survivor nor will Anti-heal perks. STBFL will still get value because it's more versatile than that, but it will still lose SOME value.

    And Survivors are absolutely capable of not healing. They can do gens, rescue teammates and escape just fine while injured the whole game, denying all instant down perks and powers their value by shear redundancy.

    However, Enduring, and it's niche is different. Enduring perks, healing perks and DS serve to devalue attacks in general.

    Enduring by negating a hit

    DS by negating the long term consequences of a hit

    and healing perks by being healthy more often

    While Survivors can simply not heal in order to deny expose value, a Killer can't just not attack Survivors to deny enduring value. The Killer NEEDS to hit Survivors in order to accomplish his objective and time spent not hitting Survivors is always time that could be better spent.

    What this means is that Survivors can play in a way that completely negates the entire idea of expose perks. No matter what expose perk you can think of I can counter it as Survivor by not healing and playing accordingly.

    However as Killer I cannot just use a different playstyle to ignore the idea behind tanking perks. Sooner or later I have to hit Survivors. So the best I can do is play around the specific perk conditions instead, which is much more limiting.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    Ok maybe I should clarify a bit, because psychology is tricky like that.

    Obviously, Killers know perks like BT and DS exist and are used. However that doesn't mean an expectation is created, at least not in the context of psychology (not to be confused with the context of strategy).

    Basically, typically when the Killer hits a Survivor the Killer is rewarded and the Survivor is punished. The games dynamics all reinforce the idea that the Killer wants to hit Survivors while the Survivors want to not get hit and there are rewards associated with all of this through both the progression system, animations ect.

    Now with exposed, this dynamic is upheld, and the specifics are explicitly telegraphed. There is an "oh ######### I'm exposed" moment before any instant downing events occur. The important thing is that it's the telegraph that builds the expectation. You as an exposed Survivor look different than you as a non-exposed Survivor from your own PoV simply because of the icon and sound effect. In the case of MYC, if the perk didn't inform you that you were exposed then I wouldn't say that the perk built an expectation, even if you KNOW the perk is effecting you based of prior activation, the perk still wouldn't have actually built an expectation.

    A Survivor on the ground with DS looks identical to a Survivor on the ground without DS, and regardless of any perks involved the game has trained me to anticipate a hook after picking up a Survivor. And in the case of endurance it's the same deal, injured Survivors with endurance look identical to injured Survivors without endurance and the game has trained me to expect a reward after hitting a Survivor.

    Contrast BT in the end game to Adrenaline in an unhook scenario. Survivor is on the hook:

    • BT: Survivor is unhooked. Killer hits the Survivor. Killers hit is negated and the Killer is punished
    • Adrenaline: Survivor is unhooked. Adrenaline heals the Survivor. Killer hits the Survivor. Killers hit goes through and the Killer is rewarded

    Strategically speaking the Adrenaline scenario is strictly worse for the Killer. The Survivor has an extra speed boost and doesn't have deep wounds. However, at no point is the Killer actually punished in the Adrenaline scenario, because Adrenaline's payoff is before the Killer hits them while BT's payoff is WHEN the Killer hits them.

    It doesn't matter if the Killer consciously knows that the Survivor has BT or not. Seeing a Survivor go from injured to still injured is still going to feel worse than seeing a Survivor go from healthy to injured. Like I said psychology is funny that way. It's all a matter of presentation.

    Now there is ALSO the balance angle. But the expectation thing has less to do with what the Killer knows and more how the information is presented. If the endurance gave the Survivor a glowing shield around them that got broken by the Killers attack it would probably feel way less frustrating even if technically nothing's actually changed.

    Also I'm not sure why you are bringing up GF with the impressive thing on DH. I made it pretty clear that it only applied to Devour Hope (and 3 unhooks under specific conditions while also defending a totem AND also getting a down afterwards because expose does nothing until you hit someone is a lot more work than 3 hooks, if you don't believe me then try running Devour Hope and Lullaby and compare your average stacks) and Mettle of Man as a justification for why they aren't frustrating despite their lack of a telegraph. Killer powers with instant downs are in general telegraphed, either by status effects in the case of Ghostface and Myers or a Killer specific sound effect in the case of Bubba, Billy or Oni.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807
    edited July 2020

    If you've ever heard of the rested bonus in WoW you'd know this is a real thing.

    World of Warcraft used to have an exp penalty if you played the game too long. Players hated this, so the devs removed it.

    In it's place, players would get bonus exp after not playing the game for awhile, and to compensate for this the base exp costs were increased. The same players liked this system much better.

    However, the actual numbers were identical before and after the change. The only difference is that the initial exp was labeled as a bonus instead of the later exp being listed as a penalty. Solely by changing the labels the players changed their opinion on the mechanic.

  • batax90batax90 Member Posts: 879

    Im sorry to say this but it take a lot more skill hitting a survivor with billy, oni, etc... than a survivor landing a single skill check. I can land those skill check and i suck as a survivor.

  • DBD_NoobinoobDBD_Noobinoob Member Posts: 89

    The difference is that not only you get to use DS and DH if everything goes well, but four people, which makes many, many second and third chances in total, with very little effort (passing a skill check or "x" or whichever letter DH is on a keyboard).

    Also, many things are avoidable in terms of one hit. Oni's rage can be easily outstealthed. Does anyone take GF's insta down seriously? The other day I read in another thread that killers dont even use stalking much but just play him stealthy, as it is SO easy to deny him stalking. Different with Michael tho, depends on the situation very much, however every team should know that common group swf plays aren't effective against him and that a trial with Michael should be stealthy and ideally spread out. Traps behind windows are possible to find and destroy / avoid, esp since there are perks that make this utterly easy (even if no one plays them), making traps generally useless (in theory). Hex totems don't fit the comparison either, because many things can help making them completely useless (Totem perks, map knowledge). I don't know why being grabbed during xyz is on the list, as this is the most easily avoidable thing on the list.

    The difference between all those things and 2nd chance perks is that survivors can do a whole lot about it all, if only the decide to take the time and not rush all 5 gens. The killer can't do anything about a survivor pressing DH to erase their own mistakes, way more than 2 or 3 times. And he can do even less about 4 people doing that. DH really is the worst though. For killers, DS and BT are both avoidable too, it's in the killers hands to not tunnel / camp. But DH is gonna win most chases for a good survivor or at least buy soo much time, esp during these fast paced games... look at it like this: if 4 people buy x time by lenghtening chases, it's okay to make them invest time elsewhere, e.g. finding totems.

  • TTVfbYTigTWTTVfbYTigTW Member Posts: 85

    You know dead hard has been in the largely untouched for FOUR YEARS? You know this whole complaining about “second chance” perks has ramped up and up recently? Why?


    Killers act like there’s no counter to DS, dead hard, etc. Which is ridiculous

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,807

    This isn't recent in the slightest. And I already covered why they are complained about so much.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246

    This just shows how much bs ds actually is, an obsession doesn't mean there is ds but only there could be ds. There are other perks which create obsession including perks of the killer. A single perk so powerful you have to expect that all have it, even when only one carries it.

    Also literally every instadown there is can be negated by portable endurance.

  • darwinsbraindarwinsbrain Member Posts: 99

    Dead Hard is the toughest one? I can see not expecting I t the first time in a match, but after that you gave to bait it, let the survivor use it then hit them. Sound like you may be playing too aggressively if you keep getting fooled by it throughout the match. And survivors can only use it once per chase AND only if they are injured. If they are full health DH is nullified with an insta down.

  • darwinsbraindarwinsbrain Member Posts: 99

    If you down the recently unhooked survivor and you aren't at least thinking about the possibility of DS that's on you.

  • DetailedDetrimentDetailedDetriment Member Posts: 2,632

    Killers complain about second-chance perks but then tunnel and slug without thinking of the consequences. Dead Hard is kind of ######### so it's irrelevant.

    Survivors complain about insta-downs because they are handled extremely poorly. I can understand powers being instant down methods such as with stalking and chainsaws, but perks and addons break the balance that the devs are trying to maintain. Iri head being an addon has no counterplay. NOED being a perk is extremely unbalanced.

  • EndstilleEndstille Member Posts: 2,246

    Is that so?

    Hf playing against 4 people wearing the exact same outfit, you can down another survivor, hook him/her, repeat yet you can still be hit by DS.

  • darwinsbraindarwinsbrain Member Posts: 99
    1. How often are all the survivors all wearing the same outfits. Not often. 2. If thats the case you can use the names. 3. If all else fails expect it every time.
  • IMilkNobody_108IMilkNobody_108 Member Posts: 41

    can you not just move your camera around when doing a gen?

  • Komodo16Komodo16 Member Posts: 1,488

    All I gotta say is they are just about the same frankly DS is used to punish tunneling and even in end game if someone goes for the save you have a whole free down unless everyone bodyblocked and even then you can get a down if you tunnel that person you deserve to lose. Camp them and get another kill and unbreakable is a counter to slugging which is VERY annoying btw unless warranted I've had a game where we only did 2 GENS with bad surv rng and he slugged and only hooked to slug more until we all died. How is that fair or fun to go against. Let me cleanse her ruin or whatever before he gets here. Boom haunted grounds. Awww crap lerys well at least he has no ruin. BOOM DEVOUR! WHAT I CANT CLEANSE THE TOTEM?! yeah frankly insta downs get annoying and ghost face is the only hard insta down meyers is cheap as ######### he gets fast stalk and extra lunge and vault speed and with dedicated servers and hitboxes that lunge is deadly especially against camping and oni has so much control he is billy on steroids just slower but with the power to kill you anywhere and I had a game against a trapper with a trap that didnt let me disarm it hence why I couldn't see it or see a prompt and I inevitably hit it and make your choice just wow I go for a save just to see the killer watching the hook and it was clown at a dead zone so I was waiting for him to leave or come closer eventually he left and make your choice encourages going back to hooks making it unsafe while DS is easily counterablr and rarely has any effect and unbreakable is almost useless unless you have a flashlight teammate and even then they are slugged if they use unbreakable they wasted a strong perk and can barely start doing gens after a minute so yeah you get punished for slugging the ds but now you can do it again with no punishment and dead hard is so horrible yet good it does not work almost at all for reactions so just m1 or wait and lo and behold it does nothing and if they run into you then you know they have it and if you lunge after they dead hard you hit them and if you lunge and 360 if they go behind you you will hit them and BT well if you get screwed by BT thats your own fault

  • Komodo16Komodo16 Member Posts: 1,488

    I'm so sorry but I was in the bathroom and so much text I didnt bother punctuation but try and read that it addresses every insta down and second chance well not every but a lot and it explains the counters and situations they are used

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