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Stop using "fun" as a metric

SnowbawlzzzSnowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,121

Since Scott's new video, there have been a lot of discussions about what killers are "fun" or "unfun" to play against (fun usually just meaning "easy to bully"). I don't think the use of this metric will yield any positive changes if it's normalized and the balance team starts reading into these threads. I know I'm going to get responses along the lines of "Its not a competitive game", but the fact that it's PvP-only means that this game is, whether intentionally or not, competitive. And in a competitive setting, balance is the first priority. This game's playerbase has a lot of overlap with the fighting game community (IE Tru3ta1ent), which is about as competitive as gaming gets.

The thought of Deathslinger being changed to be more "fun" in the eyes of survivors haunts me. He's already a skill-based killer that requires movement prediction, pop-shotting and player reading to perform well with. I wouldn't put these devs above giving him a huntress-like directional terror radius to make him a straight downgrade, for the sake of "fun".



  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347

    Did you ever see me saying that they are not "fun"? I call them noobs who abuse mechanic and literal cheaters (voice comms SWF) who are trying so damned hard on this game -while obviously playing casual mode- because they know they have the upper hand. Or let them play other balanced team PvP games and we will see how it goes.

    Also, 90% of survivors already gen rush, use meta perks, so....

  • SnowbawlzzzSnowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,121

    I'm speaking more of the community-made fun tier-lists that I've seen on the forums and facebook today. I've tried to post an image in several formats but I keep getting an error. Generally the bottom of the tier lists are taken up by Doc + all the top tier killers.

  • PerkyPerkyPerkyPerky Member Posts: 347
    edited July 2020

    When did devs say it is not cheating? Why they do not include it in-game and buff killers then?

    If you believe voice comms is not cheating they I have nothing to discuss with you.

    BTW: how the hell do you ban voice comms? You survivors ever stop and think?

  • SnowbawlzzzSnowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,121

    Bullying billy is easy now. Hell, even back then you could bait out the chainsaw the same way you bait out demogorgon lunges.

    Maybe its because I run Iron Will, but I don't have much trouble doubling back on my scratch marks or ducking to juke a spirit. If you're on the safe side of a pallet before she does her little "mind game" standing still, you still have 180 degrees of paths you can take that aren't toward her husk.

  • caz_caz_ Member Posts: 218

    im talking about a "skilled billy" not just a decent/baby billy.

  • BovinityBovinity Member Posts: 1,522

    That's right.

    It's not the job of survivors to care about my fun (and they absolutely do not). Nor is it my job to care about theirs.

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 18,723

    "If you believe voice comms is not cheating they I have nothing to discuss with you."

    Okay, sure. Ignore the fact that this is called a General Discussions - and a discussion is definined as "the action or process of talking about something in order to reach a decision or to exchange ideas." - sure keep going with your viewpoint.

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 18,723

    Great! Now you've admitted you can't complain about genrushing, meta perks, or toxic actions, if you ever bring those up I'll be sure to quote you on this.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,487

    I really think we need to start steering away from using words like “bully”.

    I am really horrible playing Huntress and usually players can Juke me, because I don’t have a lot of experience with her. Doesn’t mean I’m getting “bullied”.

    Fun is suppose to be subjective, not everyone who finds a killer fun means that they think those killers are easy to go against. Some of my more fun matches have been against high tier killers.

  • BovinityBovinity Member Posts: 1,522
    edited July 2020

    I mean, you can go through my post history and see that I've always said that "genrushing" complaints are silly because they're just the survivors objective so of course they want to complete them.

    Using anything "meta" is just smart. I might not LIKE certain perks design or gameplay implications, but blaming the players for using them is wrong. If they piss me off, it's the developers I need to blame.

    As for toxic actions, that's a different animal. I don't go out of my way to be a jerk, I just don't (usually) think about my opponents "fun" when executing my strategy. (I let a metric ton of people out early in the crown event though, for instance. That was less about beating my opponents and more just a personal thing.)

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 18,723

    In which case my respect for you has gone up pretty dramatically.

  • NumB_16NumB_16 Member Posts: 78

    Wrong, clown is bad and still unfun to play aggainst. It has nothing to do with how strong the killer is

  • Rey_512Rey_512 Member Posts: 1,620

    You’re both right and wrong, OP.

    Fun should absolutely be considered when balancing a game like this. For example, nobody reasonable finds mechanics with ZERO counterplay (infinite mending Legion, deep wound timer going down DURING chase, etc.) fun. Before anyone says DS doesn’t have counterplay, yes it does - slugging and/or going for someone else. When you have absolutely zero options against a certain tactic then it becomes both unfun and unhealthy for the game. For example, camping Leatherface is not fun and I think that should be considered when balancing this killer (hopefully his new “charge mechanic” prevents this, but doesn’t seem likely).

    However, Spirit is not an unfun killer just because she is difficult to play against. In fact, her stupidly good addons were nerfed to even the playing field. I think she’s in a good place right now, except for maybe giving her a more reliable visual tell when she’s phasing (I think we all agree that her Stand Still at Pallet “mindgame” is ridiculous as it requires no skill to do). Gunslinger is a great chase killer but, like Spirit, is 110% and map pressure starts lacking.

    In conclusion, fun should be taken into account but for the right reasons. If a killer is unfun because a power/addon doesn’t have counterplay then it should be looked at. If a survivor just doesn’t want to learn how to face a certain killer because they require different counterplay, then NO - the killer is fine.

  • SnowbawlzzzSnowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,121

    The general usage of the word "bully" in this game refers to the ease with which survivors can abuse perks & items (DS, Flashlights, Saboteur) or just camp god loops. It's easy to bully any Huntress depending on the map. If there aren't enough opportunities to get hatchet shots in, or she runs out, she's slow enough that many normal loops become painfully long for her. Bully tactics work well against most killers, except for those like Freddy, Spirit and Oni, because being on the other side of a pallet doesn't mean you're safe.

  • DrDeepwoundDrDeepwound Member Posts: 2,061
    edited July 2020

    Yeeeessss , complain about deepwound, devs see deepwounds = boring, give us a power that actually downs people again.

    Oh how then the salt river will run deep and wide.

  • SnowbawlzzzSnowbawlzzz Member Posts: 1,121

    That last paragraph is a large part of my point. When Scott talks about why he finds deathslinger unfun, he paints deathslinger as having an assault rifle "he can just keep taking shots over and over again" when that's just not the case. Deathslinger has to slow down and reload after every single shot, and has plenty of counterplay in that you can bait out many shots around pallets. People also find being harpooned off a gen another example of him being "unfun" but if survivors had warning ahead of time he wouldn't be very good.

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 18,723
  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 18,723

    Please do because deep wounds are boring and I'd rather be downed.

    So long as it isn't old Legion.

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