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Deathslinger's counterplay balance discussion - what changes would you make ?

KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

Since there's been such large amount of players claiming that deathslinger doesn't have counterplay I've decided to ask you all how would you change DS to fit your counterplay criterias. 

 I'd like to say that in my opinion deathslinger has counterplay which is based on predictions (a statement/action about what you think will happen in the future) just like for example nurse or spirit have, it's very difficult to predict but it is possible. Keep in mind that this thread is to discuss counterplay to his power and not his viability. 


Also please refrain from any ideas that would change DS to 115% MM Killer. Those are lazy changes that suck all fun from killer's power. It's like suggesting to fix looping strong tile setups due to strong window spawns by increasing MM speed of all survivors by 3% but nerf all fast vaults into slow vaults. Such lazy changes are never good idea, keeping DS 110% with good power needs to stay.

So please when you suggest some change do your best to explain what kind of counterplay you want DS to have and how would you reach it via your suggested changes. 


I'd also like to ask if @ScottJund could spare a bit of his time and partake in this discussion since he's one of the best known opposers to deathslinger's gameplay. It would be extremely helpful if he could share more of his views on this topic and possibly even give some changes that he thinks would make DS balanced. As seasoned DS main I'd really love to give my feedback if he has some ideas in mind to change DS.

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Comments

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007


    My thoughs exactly, people really like to suggest for example that giving him long ADS would somehow give him counterplay when only thing it would do is limit the potencial of his shots around tight corners while counterplay would still stay the same - predictions.

    I don't know what the problem is, that's why I'm asking people who have it to give some feedback.

  • MunqaxusMunqaxus Member Posts: 206

    I think an indicator of some sort a second or two before he fires his chain, just like Pyramid Head. Maybe his muzzle flashes red or a ground indicator appears. It allows the survivor to have a chance to do something. Right now, survivors can only guess where his shot is going and with quick scoping, all you can do is weave and hope you randomly don't get hit. ScottJund makes an excellent point about why Deathslinger is not fun to play against for survivors in his video "Boring Killers" - Are Survivor Complaints Valid. I highly recommend watching it.

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    But any indicator that slows down his chances to shoot doesn't change the counterplay, it only allows survivors to know that he'll shoot but they still can't react to it since it's fast and they don't know which direction he'll shoot. The counterplay is still making a prediction and even if you start dodging it's still a prediction that's needed to somehow evade the shot. Just because you know he'll shoot doesn't change current counterplay in any way, it limits his chances to shoot which doesn't require any imput from survivors so it basically isn't counterplay.

  • HectorBrandoHectorBrando Member Posts: 877
    edited July 2020

    Lower the speed of the projectile so there is a real chance to dodge it at certain distances and increase the slow down after faking take aim (so he cant fake it to force zigzag while eating your distance for free, same that happens to Huntress) as trade on make him recover faster after a reel hit and a missed shot, this would tie in with a higher number of misses from the slower spear.

    Overall he would miss more but the misses would be way less punishing.

  • Izo_QuartzIzo_Quartz Member Posts: 180
    edited July 2020

    Remove no-scoping, add a 0.6 second delay between aiming down sights and shooting. This gives room for survivors to react when Deathslinger is about to shoot. In exchange for this, there is no longer any cooldown for missed shots, and the addons that would normally affect this now reduse the delay between aiming down sights and shooting.

    Add an audio que that's different from the terror radius, for when he is within proximity of a survivor, similar to the huntress's lullaby. Perhaps the auidio que can only be heard when his ammo is loaded? Or maybe add a visual que for when Deathslinger's ammo is loaded or not?

    When it comes to counterplay against deathslinger, i think he has a very similar issue as the spirit, they both have the ability to zone out survivors without actually doing anything. By simply letting the survivor know your ammo is loaded, you can force them to run into dead zones in an attempt to dodge a potention shot. This is similar to how spirit can force survivors to leave any loop by just standing still.

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    No matter how slow you make it, it'll still be unreactable on any distance lower then 6m which is where he gets most of his hits. Long shots aren't very realiable and are also already reactable so he would never shoot if survivor is more then 10m away due to it beeing too slow thus impossible to hit unless facing very oblivious survivors.

    I think that slowdown after faking M2 would be OK change, it helps with the spamming of M2 issue so that would be welcomed. Yet still as a trade off I would suggest to add either increase for MM speed during ADS or your idea to counterweight such nerf.

    Thank you for your feedback, I like the change to M2 faking but don't know how well woul work the slowing of projectile. Probably not very much.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 4,427

    Honestly I'd just add a slightly better version or iri coin base..that way he shaves off some of his time waste and differs from huntress by going g for long shots..as he stands hes just weak

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    I've mentioned it before but increase to his ADS just limits his options for tight shots, survivors still can't react since his shot still moves very fast so the counterplay is still a prediction like it's now. But 0,6s isn't really a huge number so it would need to be tested in gameplay to see how it would affect him.

    The audio que is a fine change imao, it could work but some small buffs would have to come with it. I like the idea to give survivors more chances to hide from him especially when he's a good chase killer even when so many play him as almost a stealth killer.

    The change to somehow stop M2 spam is imao the best suggestion I've heard but they don't really affect counterplay which is the main complain from the community that I've heard. I can see devs eventually adding some kind of CD after you let got of your M2 if you didn't shoot and imao it would be a good change.

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    Hmm I can't agree with that. Iri coin isn't great I agree but it beiing baseline would be too much imao, especilly if it was a better version of it.

    I also can't agree on the statement that DS is weak, he's very strong killer when played by someone good with him. If you think he's bad you should look up gameplay of good slingers, maybe they'll change your views of him.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    Fix his terror radius for a start.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 4,427

    No they wont..numbers prove hes bad..hes got several issues thatll always keep him down

  • projecteulogyprojecteulogy Member Posts: 671

    His terror radius. Why it's still the way it is after multiple hotfixes AND the PTB I'll never know. Hmm Sounds more like fallible Dev priority. Otherwise he's pretty neat.

  • HectorBrandoHectorBrando Member Posts: 877

    Yeah but less than 6m shouldnt be easily dodgeable, he is 110 ms its not that easy to get to that distance in loops, it would be similar to Huntress in the sense that at 6 meters its almost impossible to dodge her in open space but in loops its still manegeable, being easier than Huntress at 6 meters is a trade from being unable to hit past 18 meters like her.

    I dont know maybe you are right and it needs to be something else, in any case they can always try internally several options and then chose the one they believe its the better.

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    If it's bugged 100% agree. If not, make more detailed suggestion for TR change.

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    Well my numbers are that I have very high kill rate in high ranks with purely him since I've git guted with him after his release. You've ofc entiteled to have an opinion, I'm just saying that he's more then a decent killer, not top tier but still good one.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 4,427

    Kill rates arnt really reliable in today's dbd dont you think? The matchmaking is a disaster and all the numbers will be looking higher than normal

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    That's what I think too. I can agree with some of them to a point, he's got very different playstyle if you want to properly counter his power. It requires you to make predictions or deny him LOS, both beiing pretty hard when vsing good DS.

    Still, asking them what they don't like and make compromises will only help DBD's health in the long run, so here I am.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    While you say not to discuss viability, slinger is far from uncounterable or OP. He has strong 1v1, but is slow and has no map pressure. He is a strong low tier to a light mid tier killer in my opinion. Slinger has many counters, his counters are pretty similar to clown. Pre drop pallets, or loop them normally. Slinger can't get you with his gun on most loops in the game, even if he can see over them. Looking behind you can also help, and if you're going to bring up his small terror radius, use spine chill. Also slinger is one of the tallest characters in the game, meaning survivors can see him over loops, but sometimes slinger can't making mindgames hard with him.

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    Reasonable but since he's not as lethal as huntress overall, mainly more consistent then her, beiing pretty much unable to earn hits 10m+ would need to come with some mobility or stall potencial as counterbuff since heightening his chase potencial would just make him broken chase wise at that point so that wouldn't be an option.

    It'll be interesting if devs eventually change something about him if anything to say the least.

  • thrawn3054thrawn3054 Member Posts: 3,375

    I'd give him a hum radius like Huntress. Not as far as her radius. Maybe 32 meters. My only real issue is with the M&A Slingers. His already small TR with the really quiet music pretty much makes him a stealth killer.

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    I see your point but I've faced some god tier level survivors with DS a few times and they had real trouble beating me. They've lasted quite well (based on which one of us predicted better) but still managed to catch them pretty fast overall. At least much faster then the likes of doc or billy would.

  • VeenVeen Member Posts: 705

    A terror radius?

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    I agree he has counterplay and isn't OP. It's very hard to pull of counterplay but still a counterplay. Good slingers imao can make him high B tier or even A tier if they godly with him. It boils down to experience of each side and which one reads the other better + good decision making overall.

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 2,007

    It's suble, you need to hear well. Still I wouldn't be against increasing his TR if some buffs came to counterweight such nerf.

  • MeltingPenguinsMeltingPenguins Member Posts: 1,721

    True.

    And... I main Deathslinger. He's one of the few killers I can out-manoeuvre as survivor, cause I got a decent feeling for when I'll have to dodge to the side or stop and move a step back/do a 90° turn even without looking behind me

    I'm by no means good, but I have managed to hold my ground against some green and a red rank (only to each time run straight into them the moment I think I'm safe... )

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