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Maybe Generator SPEEDS Aren't The Problem

One thing that it feels like every killer on the forums is complaining about at some point is to do with generator speed and how quickly they are completed. Now granted, 2 survs on a generator with a Prove Thyself and a BNP Toolkit can be pretty quick, but that's not what I want to focus on with this thread.

What I instead want to focus on is an observation that I've had with a LOT of DbD content creators and their killer games. I've noticed a disturbing lack in kicked generators in their games, especially when compared to my own play. I see then walk right by generators that are mostly complete and I internally scream "KICK the DAMN GENERATOR." But this got me thinking, is it the fact that killers aren't kicking generators outside of Pop Goes the Weasel in general? Or the fact that regression takes so long to have a noticeable effect on a generator?

Even the reworked Hex: Ruin, reworked not nerfed, gives a fantastic regression to survivors for ditching a generator, but even then it's only at half the rate that they fix the thing with. Now granted that you can keep survivors, especially twitchy solo players, off a generator for a good, long while. The issue is though that damaging a generator currently gives you a quarter of the survivor's progress per second and can be completely cancelled by a small tap. The character model doesn't even have to TOUCH the generator to cancel this!


Now it may just be because I'm a very special type of killer who also runs Surveillance and hasn't pushed into red ranks for several reasons, but I personally find kicking generators to be fairly effective at stalling out survivors. Not so much against better teams, but against the average assortment of solo players, I find it brutal.


Question is then is this: is it time that the regression speed of a generator be increased slightly and make it more enticing for a killer to damage a generator? Killers need to apply pressure, so what better way than depriving a Survivor team of their objective!

Now, I'm not at all saying something like a 50% increase, as Ruin would now be faster at regressing than a Survivor just working on a generator, and let's be honest, for a lot of people generators feel too slow on the Survivor's side but quick on the killer's and that maybe just changing something that people already don't like isn't the way to go. Buffs, not nerfs. I'm thinking more along the lines of a 10% increase, 20% at most as anything further may be a bit too far and how some killers can traverse the map in mere seconds.

So, who's up for more interactivity between sides? Killers kick generators more and the game gets back some of the tactical element! This should also slow down games so that more people can play the killers they WANT to play, rather than just sheer bandwagoning onto whatever's the strongest killer that takes the least amount of effort to learn.


I'll see you in the fog.

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Comments

  • Kumnut768Kumnut768 Member Posts: 789

    i would just say shrink maps increase regression times, thats how i'd do it

  • ZozzyZozzy Member Posts: 3,624

    Kicking a gen without pop is literally pointless. swf will call over a buddy to finish a 90% gen and you just extended your chase time by potentially 1 minute +

    Base gen regression is 1/4 of a solo survivors repair speed.

  • TheRockstarKnightTheRockstarKnight Member Posts: 2,103

    This. Strong tiles and big maps are the problem.

    SWF exacerbates this issue by being able to constantly and consistently communicate/rely on each other, but Solos who know how to do gens and split up are almost as dangerous.

    Unfortunately, a sizable portion of the player base are solo/2 man Survivors who mess around and/or make mistakes constantly. Those people need those safe loops and big maps to have a chance at winning and telling people to just "put in the hours and practice" isn't going to make a lot friends.

  • CrypticghoulCrypticghoul Member Posts: 504
    edited September 2020

    I'm going to somewhat echo what others are saying in that getting pressure started is difficult. If the first person you find is competent at looping/running then the game can feel like it's over if they're not making huge mistakes and your killer can't down them quickly like Deathslinger, Pyramid Head, or Spirit.

    The first down (or just injuring a bunch of people so they'll stop doing gens and heal) is just so crucial to get asap because until that happens there's 3 people working on gens. Even just holding down W away from gens being worked on and throwing some pallets can be incredibly detrimental for the killer if the other 3 are just cranking out gens.

    Of course, this is assuming all the survivors are finding and hopping on gens efficiently and that the person being chased isn't making more than a couple of mistakes, which shouldn't be assumed with randoms. The game can quickly snowball uncontrollably in the killer's favor if there are 1-2 people hooked and more injured or getting chased.

    A couple of proposed solutions:

    Corrupt intervention base kit.

    The generator repair speed penalty when several survivors are working on a gen is made global when there are more than 3 gens left. Ex: 3 survivors working on 3 different gens will all get the -15% penalty to repair speed per survivor. Might need to be lower for people not doing the same gen. Edit: If anyone is on a hook this should be disabled.

  • Chicagopimp2019Chicagopimp2019 Member Posts: 458

    I think you hit it right on the head. Map size is a tremendous indicator of what kind of match is going to be. I had one match on a large map where I did almost a whole lap around the map without finding any greens being worked on, only to finally return to my starting location and have the gen completed in my face. Smaller maps definitely have a greater sense of urgency to them, both as a killer and survivor.

  • MikeasaurusMikeasaurus Member Posts: 2,308

    When I play killer I rarely kick a Gen anymore without PGTW because it's kind of meaningless to me. I could kick it, but someone could easily just be hiding nearby to undo that damage within seconds of me leaving. I'll sometimes use Overcharge in hopes they'll mess up and give me a little more regression, and a chance to know they were still there, but kicking a gen is a waste for me. Not only that, but I've noticed these past few days, I barely see any survivors doing Gens together anymore. I always run Discordance, and I'd say 2 in 5 matches it activates. So, I tested a theory and started using Tinker's instead of Discordance, and wouldn't you know it, while chasing a survivor, 3 Gens activated the perk after a couple of seconds of each other. It's getting to a point now that applying pressure, since people love saying that, is getting tricky. Not every killer can easily get to gen after gen, and sure, downing someone would apply pressure in theory, but again, gens are becoming more important even over saving now. An idea I had for kicking gens could be that a base kick (No perks affecting it) could apply a speed debuff to the gen when they try work on it, maybe a 10% slowdown for X seconds. PGTW could have a similar %, but a longer slowdown effect. Increasing gen times isn't going to solve much, other than annoy survivors because let's face it. 80 seconds doing a Gen is pretty boring and increasing it would be torture. But who knows what solution would be right these days.

  • gatsbygatsby Member Posts: 2,276

    The problem is more that Killers have to run one of two specific perks OR hardcore slug and camp to create enough map pressure to keep Survivors off gens.

    Perks like Overcharge and Huntress Lullaby probably need to be looked at to provide more viable options for gen regression perks. As well as the Devs looking to make more anti-gen perks in general

  • HopesfallHopesfall Member Posts: 828

    i love being on Mother's Dwelling and having Tinkerer proc 3 times in 10 seconds

    the best feeling

    i quit using the perk because it was just a morale killer, you see it proc that many times in short time frame.. it's just a defeating feeling. pathetic game design

  • TransverseCasterTransverseCaster Member Posts: 459

    Even not in SWFs there's often someone that comes running along just to quick repair. I use Overcharge to get some value out of it sometimes. If I don't run something like Overcharge or Dragon's Grip there's really not a point like you said, without Pop.

  • VSchmittVSchmitt Member Posts: 571

    That's it. I can't stress enough how gen speed or even regression speed aren't the problem. Maps are the problem. ######### coldwind with intertwined loops is a great example. There are maps that I can run a killer for 30s without dropping a pallet, it's dumb and the killer can do so much against it.

    That's the reason I'm learning nurse. F. Loops. F. Pallets. F. Jungle gyms.

    But yes, maps are the real problem in this game. They're way too safe when the survivor(s) know how to loop.

  • TransverseCasterTransverseCaster Member Posts: 459

    Red Forest is kind of an exception though. It's just so big that's the one danger with playing it. I play mostly stealth characters that are pretty slow so I know what you mean. Freddy, Billy, and Demo players probably aren't phased.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 4,995

    Kicking a gen does have value but only when you know you are chasing the survivor away from it with no other survivor around.

    This is another reason I love perks like whispers because it lets me know if they actually left.

  • VSchmittVSchmitt Member Posts: 571

    Yeah, entering a match wich you think in the first second "ok, how will I 3-gen this map" is really frustrating, but is something you get used to as a killer. Planning on how to "lose".

  • RaSavage42RaSavage42 Member Posts: 2,743

    I have this before

    But the regression rate should be increased but not be the same as progression

    That is the reason I don't kick gens much

    I have yet to figure out how to articulate a change for regression rates

    Plus I would like to see an additional effect on Brutal Strength

  • KebekKebek Member Posts: 3,676

    No, gen speeds are fine, kicking gens would do pretty much nothing unless it was regressing at the same pace as reparing which is a really bad decision. If you kick a gen survivors are trying to force you're wasting your time no matter how fast it regresses. You can only gen good regression on gens if survivors completely leave the 50%+ finished gen you just kicked which only potato survivors do.

    It's the early game that is problematic. First 2-3 gens basically get done for free since killer needs to get the ball rolling in a map filled with pallets while beiing pressured by 4 survivors split on 4 gens at the same time without anything else to do. Slow survivors down in the early game so that they can't get free gens with a perfect 3 gen split and gen speeds are golden.

    Once killer gets his first 2 hooks, gens slow down a lot as long as he can keep up juggling survivors so either fixing early game or lack of pressure from saved survivors is what gen times need. If those problems are fixed, several other issues will lessen in impact such as tunneling (not saying it's going be gone but tht killers will feel less preasurred to tunnel in attempt to slow the game down) to better manage last 3.

  • HopesfallHopesfall Member Posts: 828

    Rotten Fields

    Ormond

    Groaning Storehouse

    Midwich

    Badham

    Haddonfield

    Azarov

    Fractured Cowshed

    Disturbed Ward

    All are trash maps where the gens are so spread out, "pressure gens" becomes a joke. Red Forest definitely is not an exception.

  • RaSavage42RaSavage42 Member Posts: 2,743

    I also think that gen affected by Ruin should still regress even after Ruin is cleansed

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,636
    edited September 2020

    What is the problem with gen tapping? Kicking a gen that someone is right next to makes no sense. There are basically two scenarios that make sense for kicking a gen:

    • You have a perk for kicking gens that can provide you value.
    • The gen has some progress on it, you have reason to believe there are no survivors in the area, and you're not in a chase.

    In neither situation is gen tapping an issue. If the former, you're theoretically getting value out of the kick even if a survivor taps the gen. If the latter, you should be able to regress the gen enough to make the kick worth it. If you kick the gen as you're chasing a survivor around a tile and they tap it as they run by, that's just a good lesson not to kick the gen when you shouldn't.

    Base kit Overcharge or base kit (weaker) PGTW are just rewarding highly mobile killers that in theory should already benefit more from kicking gens. That doesn't do anything for killers like Deathslinger that people already want to have more map pressure. I'm just imagining how terrible it would be to face a Freddy with these as base kit...

  • TransverseCasterTransverseCaster Member Posts: 459

    None of those maps are bad if you look around a map first thing and take a look at gen placements. Take Ormond for example: It looks spread out evenly but it is not. There are three close to one side of the map and three on the other, with one always in the middle. This means you can four gen if you move quickly and run Pop (and I'll admit, get lucky on chases because chases are hard there). Haddonfield is the other hard case, because of its unusual layout and decent hiding spots. I think you're problem might be people going mid. Most maps are easily bisected. My best advice would be to run more stall perks or just look for the three gen areas. I divide maps like this:

    Green Areas: Go to guard area. Usually has 2-4 gens very closely together, patrol this beat regularly and try not to stray too far from it unless you're in a promising chase. Injured survivors are always promising.

    Yellow Areas: Go here when all of your Green Area is clear and unworked on, or if you detect movement for sure and you do not think you have been spotted too soon.

    Red Areas: Ignore these completely. This guarantees that at least 1-2 gens will fall in this area, and sometimes even 3, but you simply cannot guard every generator everywhere and still chase. Just let them go. It's better not to stress about them at all, even if your friction is minimal in the beginning.

    With this sectioning in mind, Pop probably is the go to for any character you play. It'll ensure your green areas stay clear even against decent teams. If you're going up against a SWF with OoO then it's always a gamble, but barring that it's always done me well.

  • OmegaXIIOmegaXII Member Posts: 2,060

    One of the reason why i don't use corrupt. It's hugely overrated imo.

  • MonsterInMyMindMonsterInMyMind Member Posts: 2,167

    Yeah gen speeds aren't the issue i agree its 100% chase times that are the issue.

  • Hex_LlamaHex_Llama Member Posts: 1,327

    When I started playing survivor, I was surprised by how slow and boring the gen repairs felt, because the gens seemed to pop so fast when I was killer. I agree that just slowing them down more isn't really the answer.

    As someone who's bad at both sides, I think the match often gets decided around the time the third gen pops, and whoever has the upper hand at that point tends to keep it unless they make a mistake.

    If you're looking for a solution where there's more of a chance for reversal in the last half of the game, I don't think universal buffs or nerfs would do that -- I think you'd want more of a dynamic response where whoever's losing at the midpoint gets a buff. In that case, though, the game becomes less strategic and more free-wheeling. I'd be okay with that, since I think the game's more fun when it's a little random, but I know a lot of people would hate it.

  • Kind_LemonKind_Lemon Member Posts: 2,559
    edited September 2020

    Don't touch gen regression speed. That's a terrible idea. I like long games as survivor, and I tend to kick gens regularly as killer (just for points, mostly), and what you are saying would basically further kill any kind of stealth around completing generators in DbD.

    I played against a Huntress on the game in recent memory who had almost a three gen, and the match took what felt like hours longer just because of how much the gens would regress between when she came to check them and by the time one of the two survivors left came to work on it again. It's painful to know that you're playing all of your cards right and showing that your knowledge of routes and paths is better than the killer's but be trapped in the same match just because gens regress when kicked. It probably wasn't any fun for her, but game mechanics told her that she should keep trying even if that wasn't going to prove her skill. I eventually escaped through the doors (after Meg bled out and Huntress closed the hatch). Don't make experiences like that more painful for everyone involved.

    Real solutions to "genrush" come in the form of preventing pallets from being used the instant players load into the match (eg. an untethering animation for every one that would "prime" pallets for use (this also prevents stupid survivors from dropping important pallets early) or causing survivors that sprint to alert the killer of their presence through a loud noise indicator if they're far enough away and the killer hasn't started a chase yet / hasn't had a chase within the past 60 seconds). Changes like that would definitely affect how survivors behaved around gen completion, becoming less inclined to just run to a gen and sit on it without preparing any escape options before the gen interaction.

  • ClickyClickyClickyClicky Member Posts: 3,536

    Yeah regression has always been one of the major problems.

    If a survivor puts 60 out of 80 charges into a generator, that generator will be staying at 60 charges without some kind of regression.

    Base regression is very bad. 1/4th the speed and survivors can stop it with a tap. Chances are other survivors will know about the gen and stop it from regression, especially in SWF. Maybe not so much in solo if its at the edge of the map.

    That's why Ruin and Pop are so strong. Ruin gives you the fast, automatic regression and Pop just forces a hard chunk off of 25%. Even surge is something, hitting 3 gens theres more of a chance of survivors not knowing about 1 regressing, but then surge will sometimes only affect 1 or 0 gens.

    Ideally you want something to help with regression unless you're planning a snowball build.

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