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PGTW vs DS Bias - Discussion.



  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 14,020

    What do you mean by that?

    If you are suggesting we look at WHY DS is used so heavily and why it is almost always in a game, I think that'd be great. We just need to apply that to every perk.

    However, as we have seen in the past, sometimes changes are made to perks without considering why it was used in the first place.

  • ccactus623ccactus623 Member Posts: 214

    That's why you slug, I agree it can be abused but any real suggestion to change it can be abused

  • ccactus623ccactus623 Member Posts: 214

    If you only play killer you only have your games to decide. The more I play survivor the more obvious a lot of killers tunnel

  • SadLegionSadLegion Member Posts: 220

    I dont see how it could be abused if DS deactivates when survivor touch a gen/hex totem or unhook someone. Clearly they are not tunneled in that situations and killers cannot force them to do that.

  • 28_stabs28_stabs Member Posts: 1,474

    DS is anti-tunneling mechanic that is not fun to use, people only waste perk slot on it to get off hook and play the game a little more. If you think that players must stay on hook all game, you are disgusting.

    And PoP- no idea why devs nerfed it. It was ok.

  • ccactus623ccactus623 Member Posts: 214

    You could camp as a stealth killer or return to the hook. It's hard to balance around this

  • LittilAvindarLittilAvindar Member Posts: 255
    edited September 2020

    No, DS used to be a perk that people got, but it was complained about, so they reworked it into an actual perk. It may not have been DS at the time, but yes, it used to be that if you were downed immediately off a hook, you could stun the killer. I am not confusing it with BT, as I am very familiar with both perks.

  • SloppyKnockoutSloppyKnockout Member Posts: 1,505

    Yeah, and DS users can jump into a locker. What's your point?

    If the killer camped (even a stealth killer), they aren't going to touch a gen, or a totem, or be fully healed; and killers are actively punished point-wise for camping. You are grossly overestimating the amount of people who hard camp.

  • unluckycombounluckycombo Member Posts: 582

    So, you're saying that because I decided to tap a gen because I had distance on a killer while mid-chase (tapped it, mind you, not sit and repair it) I should get punished for stopping a gen from regressing? If I'm running a perk such as Secondwind, or I decide to pop an insta-heal during chase in order to preserve myself, I should get punished for getting back a health state? What about For The People on a killer that's proxy camping and doesn't see the now broken Survivor? I know there's another argument against locker plays for DS as well, but what about Head-On/Quick and Quiet locker plays? Should I not be allowed to use my exhaustion perk to attempt to gain distance on the killer, like every other exhaustion perk does? If I Q&Q into a locker because I broke LOS with them, should I get punished for trying to get value out of my exhaustion perk which requires a locker to use?

    What if you get hooked next to a Hex totem and it's a Stealth Killer who was proxy camping (Like Wraith)? You wouldn't hear them come back to hook, and you might have been able to get off a We'll Make it Heal or have at least attempted to cleanse the bones- if you're the first hook and didn't realize the killer would tunnel, should you get punished for 'Doing Bones'?

    My point is that DS might be used aggressively, but it's a sensitive perk. If you base it off of chase timers, then the perk is useless, because it's too easy to break chase (Old Legion showed that off- and it's honestly kinda funny that this is true considering how many times you can start a chase on a Survivor and you won't even know where they are.) making it too easy for the killer to abuse. Give it a shorter cooldown and you might get punished for being tunneled anyway because you know how to run a loop. Have it based off of some of the things you want, and it can still be too punishing.

    DS's problem is that it's too good to stop tunneling when going against a coordinated SWF, which are practically playing a different game then solos or casual SWFs. Nerf the perk too much for SWF level, and you might kill it for the majority of the Survivor base (Solos), and god knows they don't need any nerfs.

  • SadLegionSadLegion Member Posts: 220

    I disagree that you should be punished for healing or locker jumps. But your DS definitely should deactivate when you touch a gen or Hex totem. If you decided to stop regression or break a totem then take the consequences for it. Not a free pass

  • ToxicMyersToxicMyers Member Posts: 1,295

    Literally all your first points about if I do this with ds should I be punished I say yeah you should, you know ds in this situation wouldn't go well with those builds, or you just make a dumb play which gets you killed, that's like running self care and no mither than complaining with you can't heal. Honestly the timer should be like the deep wound timer, if you are running it stops but when you stop running it goes away in 30 seconds. And no, not just swf abuse ds, I have abused it, I have seen teammates who I don't know abuse it. Hell I even see people I played against abuse it. It's not a matter of who abuses it, it's a matter on why it can be abused and how to fix it.

  • ccactus623ccactus623 Member Posts: 214

    My point is you want this survivor perk that the killer can abuse. If you start healing under the hook and the killer comes back, billy blight or nurse for example they can see your DS is deactivated and tunnel you. Tbh if they just made grabs not active it, there would be more counter play. That way lockers won't work and there's a chance you could grap at a window or hook

  • Customapple0Customapple0 Member Posts: 629

    Literally DS is there to stop survivors from getting back on the hook in less than 60s.

    Is it fair? Yes, considering I’ve seen games where the killer just proxy camps the hook & tunnels the survivor out of the game in less than 60s.

    Doing gens in your face? Lunge at them

    Unhooking in your face? Again, lunge at them. They might get the save but then they’ll be slugged on the ground, and chances are they haven’t got much time left on their DS.

  • unluckycombounluckycombo Member Posts: 582

    I mean, I didn't say break a totem, I said tap a totem... Hell, if anything, just go off of what another poster said in a different thread and just have DS go away after like 3 seconds of doing one of those actions- or even 2 seconds. (Or like ToxicMyers said and just have it work like Deep Wounds.)

    DS is kinda great in any build though. If I run Second Wind, I usually do it alone, not with any other healing perk- and while I don't personally use insta-heals, if you can last that long in a chase to get it off then imho you should be able to use it. Same with Head On- it's already not a great exhaustion perk. I'd just hate for it to be made weaker because now you can't use it in even more chases then before.

    Honestly I'd be totally okay with DS working like Deep Wounds- Hell, I'd love it. I really don't mind DS not having the invulnerability it does now, I just don't want the perk to be made entirely useless, or to take the utility out of some of the other perks in the roster either- because man, a lot of perks are hard to use effectively or yet value out of already, both for Killer and Survivor.

    Maybe it's just me then. I've personally never gone out of my way to abuse DS, and I've not seen people abuse it outside of SWF groups on either side. (Granted, some solo survivors try, but it usually doesn't matter. As I said though, might just be me- I've seen a lot of other, better red rank killers get decimated by DS, but they usually don't play like solos either. Once again though, who knows.)

  • unluckycombounluckycombo Member Posts: 582

    Yeah, honestly Survivors shouldn't just be able to barely tap a gen and stop it from regressing- but since that's how it is, I added it in my example since you're not commiting to an action.

    I think you misunderstood me on Hex totems and stealth killers though- or totems in general, I should have been more clear. I never stated that you should freely be able to cleanse the bones, Hex or not if you get hooked near them and come off a hook. In my exact words, I said 'attempted to cleanse bones'. Not cleanse them. 'Attempt to cleanse them.' Meaning, if a Survivor taps a bone, then they shouldn't lose their DS. (Unless, once again, it's like ToxicMyer's style of DS, because that sounds dope tbh.) For that specific example, I used a stealth killer since you won't always know they'll tunnel due to their powers and small terror radius- meaning it can be harder to tell that they're coming back to hook if you're solo.

    I'd never assume any stealth killer to follow anyone around for 60 seconds in stealth? I'm going to assume this has to do with either my point above, which I hope I better explained, or the break chase part- which you don't need to be a stealth killer to do, and I would expect that if they made DS pause in chase it would have a much shorter timer then it does now. (Like, 10 to 20 seconds kinda short.)

    I also agree lockers shouldn't be used for 60 seconds of invulnerability and you shouldn't be punished for grabbing them! I just wanted to mention Head On for that since I think a lot of people forget about it when talking about whether DS should be available if you hop into a locker- and I'd honestly just hate to see Head On get nerfed. The perk is already hard to pull of compared to other exhaustion perks lol.

    I also agree with the EGC/Final Gen powered argument. At that point, you really can't do much more then camping or tunneling if you want to secure your kills- and I don't think killers should be punished for that. Especially since, at that point, Survivors should have had plenty of time to at least get a decent amount of BP. Honestly survivors get way too altruistic in the end game- not sure why though. Maybe I'm just too soft because I'll sacrafice myself in end game sometimes to ensure the killer can get a kill confirm if he was really struggling that match, and I've been curbstomped with no kills too many times as Nurse, but that's just me.

    And yeah, I agree. DS is currently used way too offensively right now, and it's only counterplay is weak against sweatsquads with UB- since they can then save their UB until they really wanna turn the tides of the game. Honestly I kinda wish SWF would get nerfed a bit- something like the top four or five perks be banned for running more then two per group if you're a full premade, that way it isn't four people with fully decked out builds and comms versus one guy who's just trying to do his dailies on Wraith. (Which, I would hope will get better if they can fix their MMR system.)

  • BioXBioX Member Posts: 1,378


    When X is coming, people ask for Y, when Y is coming they ask for Z, when Z is coming they ask why X was forgotten.

    honestly this is just beyond stupid.

  • Dennis_van_eijkDennis_van_eijk Member Posts: 1,600

    Ds is a strong perk which I estimate 85%-90% of the survivors use it.

    The problem is that for the survivor there is 0 downside of the perk.

    It was designed as an anti tunnel perk except in most cases (at least mine) is that it is more of an anti momentum perk than an anti tunnel perk.

    I had games where survivors just made a mistake to many and when i downed survivor 1 again after downing and hooking 2 others, I got hit by ds.

    How is that still a anti tunnel perk than?

    Survivors who got unhooked in my face and run to a gen a go repair it.

    Cause yeah why not?

    They have ds an most of the times are also unhooked with bt.

    I agree and also thrown up that idea myself a couple of time, where if you're full health, work on a gen, unhook another survivor, etc, it should deactivate.

    Cause if you were being tunnelled you don't have time for it.

    Hell I would even care if the timer won't go down when you got off the hook and being in a chase almost instantly.

    The problem I find with the devs and a lot of people in the dbd community is that for example when ruin got changed, killers should stop complaining about it, but when killers talk about to change ds, all jell breaks loose.

    Why was ruin changed?

    Because ALMOST every killer in red ranks was using it.

    Instead of looking behind the reason for the excessive use it they just throw it on a bs reason that it is an unfair perk for beginners and the don't really help the veteran players when ruin was still up.

    Which btw happens only when you play in swf otherwise you won't get match that easily against a red rank killer.

    Now ds is when compared with d ruin also over used and is very op in combination with 1 or more perks.

    So why should ds not being reworked then?

    Simply because about 80% of the player base plays mostly survivor.

    And they don't want to puss of the majority of the player base.

  • MrLimonkaMrLimonka Member Posts: 545

    Like I said - DS is a one time use, PGTW can be used up to 11 times in a match. So it is quite obvious to me - the timer for DS should be longer than PGTW. People who complain are exaggerating.

    Besides, you can't really compare these two perks, because they are very different, it's like comparing apples to oranges

  • MasonOliver123MasonOliver123 Member Posts: 211

    Actually they’re quite similar - DS being the stronger of the two by far the momentum change it can cause and 4 survivors use it -

  • EqMonkVeeshanEqMonkVeeshan Member Posts: 416

    yet here we have an actual scoring event to do just that with protection hits...... sorry the gameplay suggest other wise that it is intended for survivors to do just that.

  • UMCorianUMCorian Member Posts: 528

    Sure, but protection hits need to have a consequence. Perks that make you invincible force the killer into lose lose situations.

  • MrLimonkaMrLimonka Member Posts: 545

    Just because two perks are strong does not mean they are similar. Not at all.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 5,144

    First of all your comparisons of Pop goes the Weasel and DS are not fair. A killer can always use Pop to their free will after they hook a survivor within the time limit, DS only activates if they get downed and picked up within one minute after being hooked. Yes, they do have immunity, and with Unbreakeable it's particularly strong, but those are also two perks, not one. I'm not saying a nerf to DS would be bad, but I play killer at rank 1 constantly and I just don't see how the perk is that terrible, and I have at least the comprehension abilties to understand why they nerfed Pop in this patch but not DS.

    The fact that people still claim that the devs are so survivor biased is just baffling to me though. And you know, because BHVR is so survivor biased, they made a huge patch with many map changes that pretty much all were in favor of the killer, and slightly increased repair time for survivors if they team up on a gen. Because they are biased they also made many other good changes for killers in the past, like the removal of pallet vaccuum, the decrease in pallets on a map, the increase of healing time from 12 to 16 seconds, and big buffs to Doctor, Leatherface and particularly Freddy. Yes some killers and perks have received nerfs in the past, and a few survivor aspects have been buffed as well, but how on earth does one come to the conclusion that the devs are survivor biased?

    Also, I don't quite see how the survivor perk buffs are better than the killer buffs. If they do it right, Thana could actually end up being a good slowdown perk, and the buff to Trails of Torment also looks pretty damn good.

    One more thing, Almo replied to a thread as to why Pop was nerfed, and gave an understandable reasoning for it. At least it's understandable to those with actual brains. Yet then someone had to draw direct comparisons to DS and people started talking about how Almo got burned and how their reply was stupid and shows their survivor bias, which is honestly just so stupid and cringe at this point. And now you are wondering why the devs aren't communicating more and explaining why DS wasn't nerfed? To a community that has way too many immature man childs?

    Just because one perk gets nerfed doesn't mean other perks that could be nerfed for similar reasons need to be nerfed in the same patch. You don't know why DS wasn't nerfed. Maybe they are still uncertain as to how to nerf the perk properly. In the end it's the only reliable perk to help against tunneling that you can use on yourself.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 5,144

    He didn't screw up. Immature minds like you just think he did something terrible because they get offended by anything. He explained the thought process of why Pop was nerfed, you can disagree, but that reasoning is there and it's at least understandable. The fact that they didn't nerf DS in the same patch for the same reasons is not the end of the world, and doesn't mean the devs only care about survivors.

    Just look at how so many immature people are going crazy over his response, how are you people surprised that he hasn't replied anymore regarding this topic?

  • UnbeatableAshUnbeatableAsh Member Posts: 101

    DS is a pain in the ass, but hopefully they change object too. That ######### kills matches.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 14,020

    How many times do you get 11 PGTW in a game? By the time you get 8-9 PGTW's, you've already won the game.

    DS buys you more time than Pop does.

  • HoneyBadgerHoneyBadger Member Posts: 18
    edited September 2020

    "My god 5 second stun is so bad" Most of y'all grow a pair because life ain't fair sorry you're trying to squash matches or trying to tunnel ds only buy you 5 sec if you can knock survivor down you can do it again. Most of you need to grow up pgtw and ds are completely different perks. Stop this we vs them debate because it's sickening

  • SloppyKnockoutSloppyKnockout Member Posts: 1,505

    Yes, cause DS only happens when you tunnel. Play both sides, then you're allowed to have a valid opinion.

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