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Our Multiple Objectives and How "Efficiency" Ruins Them

PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842
edited October 2020 in Feedback and Suggestions

Quite a few of you might have seen before in other threads about the current emblem and ranking system that I have actually defended it as a decent way to ascertain someone's place within the game. When it works and we don't get horribly mismatched games.

People commonly view this game with ONLY TWO OBJECTIVES: Do generators (Survivor) and kill all survivors (Killer). Now, while these are indeed the advertised objectives, they are not the only ones. They are what I dub the ULTIMATE objective. The thing that you are trying to achieve overall. There are many more objectives in this game, yet it seems like they are easier to meld together as a Survivor than a Killer, if half the threads on the matter are to be considered gospel. Which by the way, they aren't. If my boosted playing can double-pip against two reds, a purple and a green at rank 16, then so can you at any rank. I missed a few seasons of killer and de-ranked, Summer in Aus Liquor is brutal and I have very little time to myself then. I'm working my way back up. I've been playing since Darkness Among Us, so I'm not new and when I did play more Killer, I reached Rank 7 max.

The main issue that I currently see amongst all forms of play in this is that solo Survivor is the easiest to rank up with, and a co-ordinated SWF is actually harder than playing an off-meta Killer. There are also several factors including killer selection alone, then topping with perks, as to how the concept of "Being Efficient" with your ultimate goal is actually hurting your rank, gameplay and perception of the game.


Here's a quick rundown of the objectives so we know what we're talking about:

SURVIVOR

Lightbringer - Self explanatory. Generators and exit gates.

Unbroken - Surviving as long as possible/escaping.

Benevolence - Altruism and WORKING AS A TEAM with heals, protection hits and unhooking other survivors.

Evader - Dodging the killer, through chases or stealth.


The "Efficiency" Issue

Now. The most notorious case of "Survivors being efficient". Gen-rushing. Gen-rushing is literally busting out the generators in the least amount of time possible. Because the game is going so quickly, there are no* chases for Evader, no* hooks or heals for Benevolence and LITTLE** Lightbringer as you have not been on that many generators or hooks. You did not play the Survivor game of working together to keep the team alive, of evading a killer when they came near in order to keep yourself alive as long as possible.

In an ideal match of Survivor, you want to actually be healing and even unhooking other survivors and taking it in turns to be chased so that hook totals are spread out early game. In an SWF Comms scenario, everyone can coordinate with the team in order to have minimal people doing a task other than generators, denying players more of said emblems. Yes, it is all getting done, but by one person at a time.

*No emblem in category, Bronze at best

**Bronze, or Silver at best


KILLER

Gatekeeper - Keeping generators unfinished.

Devout - Hooking survivors, not killing strictly, but hooking.

Malicious - Injuring, downing and interrupting Survivors.

Chaser - Getting into and ending chases.


The "Efficiency" Problems

That's right! There are MULTIPLE for killer! And it's easier to point out too.

1) Kills as an Ultimate Goal - Killers on these forums seem to prioritise the ability to kill over everything else. It is in their name after all, so it must be right, right? Wrong. One of the BEST things that you can do as a killer is actually to hook everyone multiple times. Survivors on Death Hook also tend to panic a bit from time to time, as a simple slip-up can lead to their death, a thought that does plague them. Stack that and you have a panic ridden team who are now watching everyone drop in quick succession.

2) Instant Downs Seen as a Good Thing - YOU GET HALF YOUR CHASER, FOR DOING HALF THE WORK. Yes, you are getting hooks quicker, but the fact that you are halving another emblem in order to be more efficient with another. Literally sacrificing emblems to be faster on others. So many times has a Bubba, Hillbilly or Plague complained that they got their 4k and only got something like Brutal Killer yet strangely omit the number of Chainsaw/Broken downs they got while doing so, and in relation to the number of hooks.

3) Not Stopping the Survivor's Primary Objective - You know what the point of healing is for Survivors? It's to deny killers their ultimate objective, yet Killers do little of the counter for the Survivor's one: Kicking the DAMN GENERATORS. I even made a thread about this recently saying that regression speeds for kicking generators should actually be buffed to make this more enticing as current regression isn't up to scratch unless you're like me and hardcore run Surveillance unironically. By not regressing generators, you are allowing to keep their progress and complete their objective while they freely try to deny yours.

4) Mori's - "Buh keys!" BUH NOTHING. For Survivors to get a 4-man escape, they have to do all 5 generators. In other words, you have to be losing so badly that Survivors can coordinate themselves over to the hatch. The best they can generally hope for is a 2-man escape with 3 generators done, which is still most of their objective. Annoying? Yes. But Mori's are just outright worse. Mori's only require one hook and then you lose out on Chaser, Malicious and Devout. A mere 3rd of your objective on one survivor, or a 12th of your ultimate goal. A Mori shortcuts the game WAY more than a key does, and I never use either because of how much they shortcut it.

5) Tunnelling/Camping is "Efficient" - Targeting an injured survivor is indeed quite a nice prospect. You have to do less chasing after all, since apparently Gatekeeper is the only emblem we need to worry about. Removing one opposing player from the game is also great for applying pressure as there's now less to worry about. But you've now sacrificed Malicious and probably a good portion of that oh-so important Lightbringer as everyone else is still on generators since you have targeted just one person. Same goes for camping. You get even less Malicious since you have no more hits, less Devout as you have now killed someone in ONE hook and WAY less Chaser as you've only had one or two hits total on that survivor.


So what does the ideal Killer game look like? Well, slugging is a must. Sorry, Survivors. It's just the way it has to be. You gotta eat some dirt from time to time. As a Pig main, there are two ways I apply slowdown with sheer gameplay alone: Slugging (at 4 alive, never the last two) and the Reverse Bear Trap. If you slug at 4 Alive, then that's one out of the game, eating dirt and waiting to be recovered and another now off to heal them. Two left. You go to a generator, find one on it, and chase/down/hook them. One left. One person out of four possibly on a generator. Letting Survivors heal up is also not a bad thing, as it can give them a false sense of security! A Survivor at Healthy is probably likely to make a mistake as they think they have that safety net of a second health state. You've now got another dose of Chaser and Malicious too, if they do heal up. Don't be afraid to kick a generator too, as if it is left alone for a while, those extra seconds can be valuable. Regression of a generator is still regression, no matter how little it is.

As it is, Killers aim to just go Chase-Down-Hook-Repeat. They are missing out on a lot, if all they do is bounce off injured survivors or even target the same few. By simply playing Gen-Protector with my top 3 most played Killers of Pig, Doctor and Legion, I can do better in the eyes of the Entity than half the killers on these forums. It's also playing hard into Decisive Strike, where people have claimed to be "too efficient" and got hit by it. I do not believe that you can hook 3 other people, get back to that first one, and still get DS'd unless they were farming in your face. Feel free to prove me wrong with a gameplay recording. It might give me incentive to cut off my 2ft ponytail that I've had for over a decade now.


Point is here, for both sides, the best matches are where both sides compete to complete all of their objectives and use their perks and mechanics to slow the other side from doing theirs. Funny thing is that it also plays into what the other side WANTS in order to do well for the current ranking system! Slow down and enjoy yourselves.

Just not Forever Freddy or Infinite Mending Legion, though, they were too far.


You have four emblems to focus on, four objectives. Generators, surviving, healing and dodging Killers for Survivor. Protecting generators, chases, hooks then killing Survivors for Killers. Don't miss the forest for the trees.

I'll see you in the Fog.

Post edited by Gay Myers (Luzi) on

Comments

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    ALSO! 69th discussion. Nice.

  • KingFrostKingFrost Member Posts: 3,014

    Best way to defend generators? Kill a survivor.

  • GoodBoyKaruGoodBoyKaru Member Posts: 15,403

    Except whilst you're busy on 1 survivor 3 of them have no pressure applied and can hammer gens, then one goes for the save and the other 2 continue to hammer on gens. You eat a DS because you're trying to get someone out as early as possible, which then causes enough time to be bought for all 5 gens to pop. 3 survivors escape, leaving their one friend on the hook to die as you get 0 emblems.

    Tunneling isn't that good of a strategy to win unless you're playing Pyramid Head.

    Rather funnily (I know, this may come as a shock), the best way to defend generators is to... actually, physically, go to a generator and defend it! Chase away survivors and begin regression depending on its progress.


  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    @GoodBoyKaru is right.

    It's also why I suggested the one tactical slug with 4 alive, and literally an explanation of how that goes down. Like I also said, I'm that weirdo that usually runs Surveillance, so kicking a generator and having survivors freak out while I return silently is actually extremely beneficial to me.

    If you tunnel or camp out one survivor, you have two or three literally with nothing to do but generators. It is literally more beneficial for both sides for you to literally walk to the other side of the map and kick the furthest generator even if you're playing someone like Trapper or even Deathslinger in terms of the emblem system.

  • bubbabrothabubbabrotha Member Posts: 1,116

    Could you add a TL;DR? If not, fine, but I'm pretty tired lol

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    Gotta go for work in 15, and I also don't use them so people actually read the full thing.

    Basically it's a case of if you rush one of you ultimate objectives (Generators or Kills) you are sacrificing at least two emblems, and a majority of what the game has to offer. This goes for both sides. Gen-rushers, Campers and Tunnellers deny Chaser/Malicious, Benevolent/Evader with middling Lightbringer. Killers who are "super efficient" deny less Benevolent and Evader, but are still hindered as two health states are more ideal for emblems. Billy, Bubba, Plague and any Exposed effects are also terrible as they halve Chaser and Malicious.

    If we slow the game, and go for all four of our emblems, then there will be way less problems.

  • bubbabrothabubbabrotha Member Posts: 1,116

    Ok, thx. Btw, where do you live if you work at 10 pm?

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    It's 12:30pm for me, because I'm in Australia. I start 1pm.

    Most of the time I post full threads, it's about 2am and I'm about to go to bed.

  • KingFrostKingFrost Member Posts: 3,014

    Or, and hear me out -- you go and get into a new chase and down another survivor because kicking a gen on the other side of the map is a poor use of time. Best way to defend gens is hook survivors. It takes more people off of generators, and as soon as one kicks the bucket the game slows down immensely.

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    So does slugging.

    Like I said, by not kicking generators you are sacrificing Gatekeeper.


    The whole point of this entire thread is that the mentality you are proposing literally deprives all sides of their emblems and a large portion of mechanical counterplay!

    If you force a survivor off that generator while it's regressing, that's more time you have later. If they start tapping gens, then run Surveillance or Overcharge! I can't tell you how many times forcing a far-off survivor off their generator has helped me.

  • finitethrillsfinitethrills Member Posts: 619
    edited October 2020

    Just to point out, Swf also CAN far more effectively coordinate spreading out hooks and saves far better than solos can, and coordinate low percentage rescues much faster as well. If they are so inclined, they can maximize their emblems far better than 98% of solo queue

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    Easier to pip, not escape. And plenty of personal experience

  • GhosteGhoste Member Posts: 1,429
    edited October 2020

    Nice write-up! But... Do people actually care about emblems? Rank means nothing to me personally. All of this doesn't apply if your goal is to escape or 4k.

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    Like them or not, they are our current system and I think that they're important because they cover ALL aspects of the game.

    Part of this is to also share that there is more to this game than escaping or a 4k. When I play a normal game as survivor, I can double pip even though I died. I did my job and was rewarded for it. In an SWF, then gens pop quickly, we all escape but there were hardly any downs and hooks. I've also had a 1k where I got Merciless as Legion, proving that kills aren't everything.

    Like them or not, same with rankings, you are still forsaking a large portion of the game if escapes and kills are literally the only things you strive for.

  • calciumstructurecalciumstructure Member Posts: 13

    Really good post imo. It's so damn satisfying to get those games where you get all red emblems after a long and maybe slightly excruciating trial. Getting a simple 4k or an easy escape in a 5 minute match just ain't fun to me, I much prefer to drag things out a bit. For survivor, get saves, chased (even if I suck ASS at them), do gens, everything that survivors SHOULD do; and for killer, enter multiple chases and get multiple downs, as many hooks as I can, etc. It's fun to actually do ALL of that. I will never understand killers who just want the quickest 4k ever or survivors who want the quickest escape of their life, that's boring as hell.

  • DzeikorDzeikor Member Posts: 704

    I agree with all this,survivors focus too much on escaping and gen rush forgetting they gonna leave the game with barely any bps and no pip.

    Same for the killers who camp on first hook,they will probably depip because they did almost nothing the whole game.

  • CalamityJaneCalamityJane Member Posts: 487

    This is still looking at things through the veil of what you want the objective to be.

    You say it's not just do gens and get kills because the emblem system exists to tell us that saving teammates and stalling the game and getting a lot of chases are also objectives.

    Well you're still skimming the point that the system punisheds you for being efficient, not because it's a shortcoming of the system, but because that's the design.

    The devs want you to play in a way which achieves your goal but is fun and fulfilling for all 5 players. Why is saving others and healing them rewarded? Because not getting people off the hook is really ######### for them. Why arey ou encouraged to get a lot of chases rather than chase an unhooked injured person and down them? Because it sucks to get tunneled. Their goal isn't a game where people show that Nurse can slug and get a 4k minutes into the game, it's one where the Nurse doesn't want to do that because she'll get ######### all bloodpoints that way.

    The only one I agree with is that punishing killers for using their power when their power 1-hit-downs is ridiculous.

  • KingFrostKingFrost Member Posts: 3,014

    Kicking Gens is a waste of time unless you've got Pop Goes the Weasel or you're in a 3-gen. You're much better off getting in another chase and getting another hook.

    Also, you can get plenty of emblems points just by killing people. Survivors emblems aren't my problem. The only way a killer can deny emblem points to survivors is if they camp and refuse to allow an unhook or if they're an AFK Wraith or if they just slug everyone. Survivors have a lot of control over their own emblems. You only get Gatekeeper points by keeping survivors off of gens. Kicking Gens provides extremely little benefit to gatekeeper.

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    We are arguing the same point, but for different reasons.

    We are both in agreeance that yes, the emblem system wants you to cover all aspects of the game and punishes raw efficiency because it is designed that way. What I'm arguing here is that it is a good thing and more players should be paying attention it, as it is more of a clearly defined win condition than something vague and exploitable like "X Kills" or "Escaping".


    I didn't skim over being punished for efficiency as that is the entire point of this. You are being punished for focusing so hard on ONE OBJECTIVE OUT OF FOUR. Yes, it is what I did indeed call the "Ultimate Objective", but similar to something like LoZ: Breath of the Wild, you are highly encouraged to go and gather some gear before taking on Calamity Gannon to actually stand half a chance, the Emblem system encourages you to do well in all areas of the game.

    Healing a teammate isn't just good because not doing it sucks for them, but they are also able to be a distraction for longer. THEY can occupy the killer with chases while you work on that generator and get it done. Later, you take the chase as they've had more hooks. You work as a team and are rewarded as a team.


    Gen-rushing and killers going kill-crazy are something that gets complained on here a lot, so I've just gone "Here's a way to stop that, PLAY THE FULL GAME." It's like I said at the start, by focusing on the ultimate objective of kills or gens, we are literally ignoring so much of what this game is.

  • arcnkdarcnkd Member Posts: 446

    Only because Survivors (primarily) and the Devs FORCE you to have to play that way or not be rewarded for your time. Because they didn't want this game to be what they originally designed it to be after it was released. They decided: Nah, let's change it so it's '######### around with each other for a few minutes' instead of 'try to kill; try to live'.

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    You know that this is an issue for BOTH sides, right? And you're not at all forced to play that way. Just encouraged if you care about ranks or the grind. In a custom game, go nuts.

    I've wondered before why my Pig, a killer who's apparently "low tier/bottom 5" is so effective. It's because I play the game as it wants to be played.


    Don't shoot the messenger. I'm just sharing my finding.

  • arcnkdarcnkd Member Posts: 446

    Oh, no I wasn't shooting the messenger. I was just stating it is literally because that's how you are forced to play the game to make any progress (bloodpoints; I don't care about the arbitrary ranks personally). Because the Devs are the type that want to Force how we play the game to fit their idea of how it should be played; instead of letting players play how they want and get rewarded all the same.

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