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Otz's community balance patch



  • SlashstreetboySlashstreetboy Member Posts: 1,688
    edited October 2020

    I agree it´s a mixed bag, but most of the stuff seems quite nice. An issue I especially acknowledge despite the "nuclear options" is the tremendous difference in Killer powers.

    With Trapper, before I took a break from him, I had to basically sweat my ace off against good teams, play to the best I possibly could to even stand a chance. With Oni, I can afford to screw up a few times and still be threatening. The gap is unbelievable, I can only imagine what it must feel like for a Nurse/Spirit/really skilled Hag main to mix it up one day and play an M1 Killer.

    This gigantuous difference in effectiveness makes it harder for the DEVs to make changes to Killers overall. For example, in my opinion the weapon wipe as well as the speed boost after a hit should be lessened. This would greatly benefit all the low/meme Killers which need something like that. At the sime time, Killers like Spirit or Freddy would become even more oppressive.

    Of course Wraith will never be as good as Nurse, for example, but the gap needs to be lessened to enable easier balancing calls.

  • SlickstylesSlickstyles Member Posts: 258

    It's useless if all totems are broken anyways so might as well get a guaranteed proc.

  • DaFireSquirtleDaFireSquirtle Member Posts: 172

    Yh I agree with you on ds. Their should be more things that de activate it. Such as totems or healing or unhooking. Cuz if you're doing objectives then you can't be tunneled.

    As for noed. I know your gonna get tons of survivors whining about how op it is and how unfun but I think it's fine. Hex perks are meant to be like that. Yes it's a high reward but it's also a high risk as if it's cleansed it's gone and that's huge losing a whole perk. Also you already need to have at least one dull totem remaining and it survivors do the totems that they see then you probably won't get long to use it or probably won't get to use it at all.

    Undying is fine. Honestly if anyone thinks this perk is op just give up now you must be that bad. Sorry but like yeah it's good. Yeah it has synergy but yet again it's high risk high reward. It that it's cleansed it's gone. Yea it's good but honestly making survivors cleanse multiplies totems isn't that big if you really think about it. Just don't touch this perk.

  • CheyeneKLCheyeneKL Member Posts: 376

    I think Otz is great but I hope devs completely ignore his patch ideas LOL

    NOED is completely and 100% fine where it is. Literally has brainless counterplay that any survivor can do.

    A bad killer leaves you plenty of time to cleanse totems, and a killer who rolls over you so that you feel like you have no chance to do totems- well, I wouldn't call a NOED proc undeserved for them. Either way, making sure you cleanse totems or familiarize yourself with totem spawn locations so that you can cleanse NOED when it procs isn't tough. Less experienced players obviously are at a disadvantage here but that's part of the game. I just don't think NOED is horribly unfair as a totem perk, even for how incredibly annoying it is when it activates. I've had dozens and dozens of game wins "stolen" from me by NOED and I still don't think it's a perk that really needs changing. If anything at all, maybe there could be a noise notification at the hex totem location for survivors after either 2 minutes of it being activated or revealed. That gives killers a little bit of pressure to go check on the totem (thus taking them away from the survivor they might be camping or the gates, etc) and gives a little bit of help to players who are completely clueless about where the totems spawn, without it just completely going away at 2 minutes like some people have recommended as a change. But IMO, NOED is fine where it is.

    I also have not run into any particular issues with Undying's aura reveal. Neither in solo nor SWF. But that's my experience and maybe others have found it to be incredibly overpowered. Perhaps the aura reveal could be kept where it is for when you actually touch the totem, and have the aura reveal shortened for when you just pass by one without touching it. I'm not sure why people have complained about Undying's aura reveal unless they have trouble running loops that have a totem in the same area? I haven't played a killer game with Undying equipped to know exactly how it behaves.

    As for DS, I do NOT support it deactivating in lockers as that is currently the only counterplay to killers tunneling for a mori or as PH if he has you tormented lmaooo

    Slugging is also the most boring part of the game and I 100% do not blame survivors for coming up with a way to ensure that they get to use their ONE TIME USE perk to either avoid getting hooked again, or getting slugged for a minute. DS is probably the strongest perk in the game for survivors, but it still was retrofitted to be viewed as an anti-tunneling perk, anyways. If a survivor plays well he won't even need to use it, otherwise it's insurance that he won't be ushered out of the game within a couple of minutes whether the killer actually tunneled him or his teammates just suck and fed him back to the killer within seconds of unhooking. Regardless, I do support a change of having it deactivate upon working on generators, but y'all want it gutted and I'm not for it.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,727
    edited October 2020

    I play both.

    However I would kindly ask that you don't try to derail what I was saying by adding an us vs them mentality to it.

    I have no problem with making borrowed time balanced so Freddy can't abusive negate it.

    I'm down for moris not being a super powerful as they always are.

    I even think his add on proposals are I think a lot of things in the Patch proposed are good however just because I don't agree with certain things doesn't mean I'm trying to pick a side.

    If you actually bothered to read what I wrote instead of jumping on the US vs them mentality. You would understand and that I never once really suggested a buff for any of the killer perks.

    My point about DS was that his proposed changes doesn't address the abusable aspects of the Perk

    My point about no one escapes death was that you can't add more conditions and restrictions whilst also weakening the perk. either scale according to it's conditions or find a more balanced condition to replace its current one. this is literally me stating the change needs to be applied differently

    My point for undying was that the only change it needed was to remove the Aura reading and instead added to Thrill of the hunt. This is literally suggesting a nerf for a killer perk

    Somehow you read that as nerf survivor perks and buff killer perks

    Post edited by Volfawott on
  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 3,030

    Just because you begin to do an objective while having DS doesn’t mean the killer can’t come back and tunnel you.

    This is why the timer remains after being unhooked. I have literally seen killers break a chase just to take out the person who was just unhooked. So the idea that one could simply touch another body while healing or a gen or totem and it deactivates is not fair when the killer can just play around that.

    We don’t give camping/tunneling those limitations now do we?

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,492

    There were too many times that it seemed like he was portraying to the babies to take it seriously imo... id rather see a player as experienced as Otz is help the less experienced rather then just say "oh this is doing too much and there's no counter to it, so you're right it needs nerf"

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 1,267

    Nobody, including Otz himself is asking the devs to give killrates before coming up with a "community patch" that nerfs survivors more and makes even more survivor perks less fun. 3-4 kills per game and still aren't happy.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,727

    I'm sorry but if you recently get unhooked and your first decision is to work the generator that is literally right by the hook you can't exactly shocked Pikachu face when if the killer comes back they go after you.

    Here's an idea after getting unhooked how about you make sure you're safe before you just go off and do objectives.

    If you feel like The Killers going to come back don't touch an objective or heal someone try to leave the area just in case they starts tunneling you. This way you make it harder for you to get to tunneled and you also have ds strike just in case the killer still finds you.

    You shouldn't reward bad play styles with immunity. The problem with decisive strike is that people tend to use it to play a certain way that would often get them killed if they did that without the protection

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 1,267

    Explain Tinkerer.

    Punishes the survivor for doing the objective and rewards killer for doing nothing. Killers tend to play a certain way with their perks but that is completely OK right?

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,727

    1) It goes off on a generator is getting close to being completed.

    2) the killer is not always going to be in a good position to take advantage of it.

    3) even then it can still be countered by the survivors using their eyes

    4) the killer can only deal with one thing at a time meaning if two tinkerer notifications go off the killer could not deal with both

    If someone gets off a hook and decides to complete a generator that is right by the hook that is for example say at 90% The Killers left in an awkward situation if they try to pull that Survivor off the generator they get hit with decisive strike.

    If the survivor didn't have decisive strike they probably wouldn't have made such a bad and risky play to begin with.

    Decisive strike is not comparable to tinkerer

  • UMCorianUMCorian Member Posts: 398
    edited October 2020

    My biggest issue with DS is since it's so powerful, you basically have to treat everyone as though they're running it unless by some miracle, no one is running any perks that flag an obsession at the start of the game.

    If Survivors don't run it, they essentially have a 5th "Phantom Perk" that I still have to play around, since the only way I'll learn if they have it is by eating it. If there was some way to know whether or not they had it, it would be a little more fair - but since you can't, you just have to assume everyone has it and not pick them up for awhile after they've been hooked more than once.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    Yeah It does, it's impossible to be doing a generator and still getting tunneled, I'm all for tunneling and camping nerfs, but DS needs a change.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 3,030


    I never said the survivor was working next to the hook they were just unhooked from. I said killers go back to track the survivor and will go out of their way to tunnel them out. Including but not limited to breaking a chase, even tho they didn’t have to.

    Also, DS isn’t strictly anti tunnel so why the hell are we even arguing the timer? You play around it, if you know someone just got unhooked.

    Here is an idea go chase someone else instead of nitpicking every little scenario in which DS could be used... I mean after all you have unlimited slug, unlimited camping capabilities.... but we don’t have to discuss how that in itself is broken do we?

    Until then DS is fine as it is.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 1,267

    That doesn't matter because you are still able to stop the objective from being completed because a perk punished the other side for doing it. A fast killer will always be able to get there. How is that fair? Imagine if DS could be used "multiple times" to stop your objective regardless of being tunneled. That's the power of tinkerer.

    DS is only a one time use. Tinkerer has no way to turn it off and can be used multiple times. Totally unfair.

    If you suspect DS, why aren't you hitting them instead of grabbing them? Killers love to invent these scenarios that try to portray a perk as being too strong when in fact you are using the fully meta loadout that is oppressive.

  • Dead_by_GadflyDead_by_Gadfly Member Posts: 3,774

    Ohtz missed a lot imo, he focused way to much on perks/killers when those things shouldn't be touched till the base game is fixed.


  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,727

    It has been described as an anti tunneling perk by most of the developers.

    After repeatedly stating it's an anti tunnelling perk they can't really switch the narrative now

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,727

    When a generator is close to being completed and a healthy survivor is on it I usually don't have the luxury of just giving them two smacks.

    If I hit them what usually happens is they just end up completing the generator whilst I'm recovering from that hit.

    Let me put it to you in a very basically if you are comfortable enough to go on a gen or a totem and just casually sit there you are not being tunnelled so you have no need to have the decisive strike time as still going.

    If you think you're at risk of the killer immediately coming back and tunneling you don't get on a generator

    Also if you're going to try to bring up the US vs them mentality you can't really whine about creating situations when you were complaining about the undying and ruin combo.

  • SlickstylesSlickstyles Member Posts: 258

    Uh no. It has been described as an anti-momentum perk. It's the community that labeled it as an anti-tunnel perk. A dev even had to make a post to set the record straight. That doesn't mean it shouldn't be up for a rework though.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099
    edited October 2020

    Uh no, the community has evidence of other developers like McLean saying it was meant to be anti tunnel. The old DS was anti momentum, if the new DS was really anti momentum, it wouldn't activate if you were unhooked recently.

    Just ask someone like Scott Jund, he has evidence of devs saying it was meant for anti tunnel.

    Post edited by MusicNerd_TC on
  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 1,267

    What stops a wraith from hiding, watching, and waiting for you to touch a gen and then tunnel? You want survivor to not touch a gen for 60 seconds? I am not allowed to work on the objective but you can? Sounds like a horrible balance idea. Survivors aren't supposed to be totally defenseless.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    The ability to look and listen for the wraith stops him.

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 3,030
    edited October 2020


    They didn't say you could only use it as an anti tunnel perk. In fact, it's not. You can take the stun and still tunnel the same survivor out.

    It was stated by one of them that the community is the one who keeps saying it is strictly an anti tunnel perk, not them.

  • VolfawottVolfawott Member Posts: 3,727

    You know I find it hilariously ironic that you accuse me of coming up with situations to justify complaining yet right now you're coming up with situations to justify you're flawed logic.

    Someone can't to make a point about how abusable decisive strike is without you jumping down their throat and saying that they're making up situations to justify complaining.

    However you're perfectly fine to complain about things like the ruin and Undying combo or you're perfectly fine to make up situations to justify your own logic when it comes to someone's argument.

    Honestly I originally put this post up to actually have some discussions and talk about what people thought about these suggested changes however if you're going to be so hypocritically biased and narrow-minded I'm not wasting my time I'm engaging with you further.

  • CallmehandsomeCallmehandsome Member Posts: 425

    Comparing tinkerer and DS is laughable. We all know DS is miles above tinkerer in terms of power. If devs announced tomorrow that devs will nerf both DS and tinkerer survivors would throw fit.

  • CalamityJaneCalamityJane Member Posts: 487

    If that happens with DS then you are guaranteed to lose a kill if they're unhooked endgame with DS. You can't leave them for 30 seconds, you can't slug it out, you just lose. That's not fair nor balanced.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 1,267

    And rightfully so, DS has already been nerfed so many times it has lost the meaning of decisive strike. Further nerfs to one side to increase the killrates even higher is what is laughable. Tinkerer directly punishes the survivor for doing the objective and rewards killer with undetectable status for doing nothing. Certainly sounds so much stronger than DS to me.

  • CallmehandsomeCallmehandsome Member Posts: 425

    Right.. then we should advocate that both the perks get nerfed. Sounds fair right. But honestly DS needs small tweaks that it disabled once you go touch a generator. You obviously aren't being tunneled

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 1,267

    Giving it tweaks to make it convenient for one side is wrong. Giving it tweaks so the killer can abuse them is wrong. It's not strictly an anti-tunnel perk. You have something in your hand, it shouldn't disappear for arbitrary reasons to make it convenient for the killer.

    Tinkerer should have never been buffed though, it is now unfair.

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