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This should be a red flag to developers (Freddy OP!!!)



  • AneurysmAneurysm Member Posts: 4,041

    Agree. I have no problem with killers being strong, but very strong and very easy and also licenced...dunno if I'd nerf him that much, just some more brainpower put into snares and some teleport restrictions so every gen perk doesn't become automatically insane on him.

    I got Freddy back when he was PTL and I loved him, was my first main + first killer I ever got to red ranks with but I don't even like playing as him now unless it's with pallets and a meme build (pill bottle + mad grit + agi + forced penance usually)

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    I actually really like the changes you proposed, but I am only asking for 2 tiny QOL changes in return.

    1: Make the dream world less dark for Freddy.

    2: When he teleports to a gen, show him his aura so he knows which way to turn after he teleports and remove the blood sound for more mindgames.

  • SunderMunSunderMun Member Posts: 2,791
    edited October 2020

    All this does is show the correlation between skill floor/ceiling with kill rate, regardless of pick rate.

    And it shows it consistently with what the community as a whole believes as a whole to be true, too:

    -Freddy has the lowest skillfloor, therefore is the most lethal across the ranks, (on average) since even someone who doesn't know any clever tricks with him, can still get good value out of them.

    -Nurse has the highest skillfloor, therefore is the least lethal across the ranks, (on average) since in order to do well with her, you need to know her mechanics well, and in the case of multiple maps, there are tricks you need to know and things you must know to avoid as there are consistent deadzones, etc. (also she has game destroying bugs that probably affect a significant number of her chain blinks, which doesn't help imo) Even at red ranks, most players who pick her up aren't really Nurse mains, so naturally her stats become deflated, especially when lower ranks are included.

    These stats don't show anything directly relevant to balance, but it is possible to extrapolate some educated conclusions from this.

    That said: I don't think a radius decrease for Freddy's snares would hurt him; in fact it would be an interesting way to even out the main difference between his chase power and that of the clown. He doesn't just use up resources that he needs to regain over time when putting snares down, so he can just freely spam them and they're so big that survivors have no choice but to run through them or take an incredibly wide turn along the loop (while most likely still being hit by the snares' gigantic hitboxes anyway) thus conceding a hit anyway, meanwhile the clown has 4 uses of his power at base. Sure, he doesn't get slowed down anymore, thus slimming the gap between his and Freddy's power ever so slightly, but even that aspect of Freddy is still far stronger than the version the Clown has. Yet Freddy also has massive map pressure in addition to having the Clown's power without the major downside that is having to reload and truly think about his power usage.

    -Also, Freddy isn't the only killer with add-ons that allow him to slow the game down. (Bubba and Huntress have add-ons that do this on successful power hits and they're not even that effective, while Freddy's version of this are) However, he is the only one that achieves this slowdown without even having to interact with the survivors.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 10,891

    They have said that they post those stats for fun, not for people to use as evidence or to make claims with.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    I don't mind strong killers either, but Freddy just has too much and is too easy and forgiving against all but the absolute top tier survivor groups.

    Freddy needs to be toned down and his affects move to his add-ons. It's just a bit ridiculous all the things he has in his base kit.

  • MapersonMaperson Member Posts: 1,461

    He has 32m radius, you can know if he is coming. So are you trying to say that it should be safe to stay on gen when he is coming? It will take him a lot of time to place snares like that, which is the goal?

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    Yea I'd be fine with that. I didn't propose any QOL changes because I honestly couldn't think of any, but yea less dark DW would be something I'd want.

    IDK about the teleport thing not sure if that would actually help. I like the idea of making it better somehow though. I just don't imagine an aura helping to stop that really jarring teleport effect.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    I suggested the teleport change so his skill cap can be increased, he would be able to use the teleport mid chase and mind game, which is actually fun.

  • Alice_pbgAlice_pbg Member Posts: 4,992

    I mean... did you read your argument?

    You are still twisting their words. They don't want you to draw a conclusions SPECIFICALLY FROM CHARTS.

    But if I have other evidence, including past stats...

    they said to not draw conclusions using their stats, and your first evidence is other stats that they also told you not to use to draw conclusions?

    face it mate, you created the discourse in this thread when you decided to use the charts the devs told you not to use(weakening your argument since it's at least partially based on faulty premises)

    and putting a literal bait in the title. You use bait, you get fish... why are you acting surprised about that?

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 10,891

    (i edited the .ini file)

    Forgive me if I am misinterpreting, but isn't this straight-up not allowed?

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099

    Eww, forever Freddy. I think swing chains is overrated ON ITS OWN, but with other perks and add-ons it isn't.

  • PigMainClaudettePigMainClaudette Member Posts: 3,842

    They could be toned back a little bit, and he quite easy, but I don't see that happening any time soon because of where Freddy was BEFORE the rework.

    And at the end of the day, he's still a basic M1 killer, and I'd much rather see him than Billy everywhere again. Or Bubba. Against a Freddy, I know that they worked in a chase (no, I don't see snare-spam anywhere) but the Saw Boys just chainsaw all the time and one slight bit of latency or one slight angle correction and I'm eating a chainsaw.

    To me Freddy and Doc are where killers SHOULD be, but maybe that plays into my preference for playing a more control-style killer and game.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    Oh well then sure I guess.

    When the data is that consistent, and when we have that extra layer, YOU CAN BE DAMN SURE that conclusions can be drawn from it. And as I've said several times now, my conclusion is based on PLAYING THE KILLER AT RANK 1. If I can't use the only data available to me to confirm my conclusion then what else would you like me to do? I could play 100 games as Freddy but then you could sit there and pick that apart too. You have to accept some data at some point, or else you are just refusing to actually discuss the issue instead of refuting it.

    Fact is you can use the data to make predictions. The devs cannot sit there and say "don't make conclusions from this data" if the data is consistent as it is. THAT suggests something is actually going on. If they want to give us more data I'd be happy to alter my statements but I'm working with what they are giving us. You can sit there all day and say it means nothing which is honestly complete and utter bullshit. You know that something is up here, why you refuse to admit it is beyond me.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 2,223

    Slowgen perks, the fact he teleports to the survivor objective at the drop of a hat, survivors passively sleep in like almost no time at all, makes him so overpowered. 3 kills every match at rank 1. If the hatch didn't exist he would be a 4K killer every match. Waaaaay too overpowered.

    He should be nerfed before they buff another killer, which btw is well above 2k per game.

  • MusicNerd_TCMusicNerd_TC Member Posts: 3,099
    edited October 2020

    I remember when I used to main old Freddy I would use this disgusting build.

    Black box, slowdown add-on, ivory mori, old Dying light, ruin and remember me.

    Tunnel the obsession out of the game and the game drags on forever.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 10,891

    Fair enough. I'd just be very careful with that to be safe.

  • xenotimebongxenotimebong Member Posts: 2,803

    You’re wasting your time. People here see “don’t use these stats and immediately draw conclusions” and think that’s the same as saying “these stats cannot be used for anything and are completely meaningless”. They don’t understand that stats require some context and a desire to ask questions instead of a black and white “high/low number bad”. I mean look at how many people are saying the stats are garbage because Pig has a high kill rate, completely ignoring that there are other factors that affect kill rate besides their personal tier list.

    For what it’s worth I agree, Freddy’s kit is too bloated and he deserves some small changes. Having a strong, mechanically simple killer is not a bad thing but he just has a little bit too much going for him.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    No Black Box gives it away. Against a good rank 1 SWF they will know what you are doing and body you. I had a group do this to me, they protected the guy all game while pounding gens.

    The real build was Dying Light, Ruin, Haunted Grounds, PWYF, Class Photo, Z Block, and ivory. You use Class Photo to find the obsession quickly and get everyone asleep if possible. Z Block makes you look like base kit Freddy. Once you find the obsession, catch them. PWYF and Haunted will make it easier, Ruin buys you some time to do it. Once they are hook leave so they get saved, then tunnel and mori them. Once they are dead the game is over, everyone will always be asleep thanks to Class Photo and it will take a solid 4 minutes to solo a gen. Game. Over. I never lost a game with this build. Closest anyone ever got was one group go to 1 gen left, but it was a 3 gen. I didn't have a mori that game, but generally speaking you didn't even need it. As long as you got the hook early enough you could camp them.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    Okay thank you. Good to know I'm not crazy. Someone else sees it too!

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 10,891
    edited October 2020

    I mean, I'm just gonna quote Peanits here (from an older post, to be fair):

    So just to reiterate one last time, I really would not recommend drawing any conclusions from these stats. These are averages, not specific and incredibly detailed data that you should draw any conclusions from.

    Not "wouldn't recommend solely use these to bolster your argument" or "make sure you're not only relying on these stats." Straight-up "wouldn't recommend drawing conclusions."

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    He explained in very clear words what you are doing, and then you do it again.

    "Do not draw conclusions" =/= "data is completely meaningless"

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 10,891

    It's not meaningless, but it is unreliable. That's why they recommend not drawing conclusions.

  • Alice_pbgAlice_pbg Member Posts: 4,992

    all I see from that data is that people play freedy and win more often than with other killers.

    it doesn't say why, it doesn't say how.

    I could easily use the same chart to say freddy has a very low skill floor and therefore more people are able to play him well, leading to more kills on average.

    and I could use nurse to demonstrate the opposite. her kills are the lowest because she has the highest skill floor in the game and therefore less people are able to play her well, leading to less kills on average.

    just because you say "this proves what I said" it doesn't mean it actually proves what you said. You are just looking for a way for it to fit the conclusion you already have

    not exactly the quote I was looking for, but it gets the idea across.

    You already think freddy is op, so you are looking at things only in a way that shows he's op. instead of looking at what things actually are and adapting your conclusion accordingly.

  • xenotimebongxenotimebong Member Posts: 2,803

    This is exactly what I was talking about with my comment, thank you for proving my point.

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 10,891
    edited October 2020

    But if the data is unreliable, then you SHOULDN'T use it. It's not good data. It's not WORTHLESS, but it by itself without the context of multiple factors is not useful.

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