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This should be a red flag to developers (Freddy OP!!!)

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Comments

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    To which I say your arguments are incredibly weak and poorly thought out. I actually go into great detail. Not to mention I have a second set of charts to further support my claims. You also never made this claim previously, whereas I could go back and show you where I said Freddy is too strong before last week.

    Again I came to the conclusions that Freddy was too strong on my own. My very consistent experience as/against him and then 2 sets of data is a lot more valid than your clearly facetious post.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    Which one would be safe to assume that all killers get relatively equal amounts of this stuff. It's not like Freddy gets more troll or AFK or bad MM more than some other killer. All things equal and he is still ahead.

    Also they said they don't count DC's.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    Thank you for this. Exactly what we have all been saying.

    "A high kill rate does not mean there is a problem, it suggests we should look at it."

    Which we have a previous set of data that correlates strongly with this one, and then all my arguments in the OP as to what is going on. All of which just further suggest there is a problem.

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436

    First 2-gen pop killer gives up.



    I'll that to my growing list of one-sided bad faith arguments.

    "Ooo, but moris." Keys

    "But match making" affects both sides.

    "But people die on first hook or afk." Killer afk's or teams to let people go, especially when being nice after someone 1 player DC's. Killer giving up (i.e. when 2 gens pop before first hook)

    "But survivor giving killer a pity kill." Killer giving survivor hatch.

    "But DC's" excluded, but even if they weren't a killer dcing would've counted as 4 escapes.

    "But boosted survivors" boosted killer

    "Survivors are bad, no wonder they die so much at red rank" then why are you complaining that red rank survivors are unbeatable. Also killers are bad too.

  • LufanatiLufanati Member Posts: 193
    edited October 2020

    I can tell you from experience that Freddy DOES get more a significant amount more trolls, afks, and suicides. Same for other powerful killers. I experience survivors giving up frequently against killers like spirit, nurse, Freddy, nd pyramidhead. A lot of survivors just don't want to play against a killer with slowdown, so they let you hook them and then suicide so they can be onto the next match. I experience the same thing with legion frequently. Survivors dick around against "boring killers" so they can go bully a clown or something in the next match.

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,037
    edited October 2020

    Your previous feelings/posts regarding Freddy are irrelevant to my comments regarding Pig's extremely disproportionate pick/kill rate, multi-faceted kit, slowdown add-ons, and anecdotal experiences - I'm not seeing the relevance of whether I made the claim before - Opinions can be formed at any time - I'm making it now.

    You're free to discuss or dismantle my claims regarding Pig at any time - They're in this thread.

  • CanasCanas Member Posts: 430

    Can we finally please buff/rework Plague into a viable state? She's been the least played killer in the game since she came out and consistently underperforms due to how unreliable her power is. She lacks any map pressure and can't even prevent genrushing.

    Her bp-income is abyssmal and her emblem-scoring equally bad. And her killrate always has been among the worst in DbD across all ranks, there's a reason why she's considered one of the weakest killers in the game. Also no new cosmetics since 8 months, instead they give us lazily recolored skins on the Rift locked behind their season pass system.

    I really love Plague's aesthetic and theme but from a gameplay and commercial viewpoint she's a complete failure.

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436

    Only 14? The the mental gymnastics I'm used to seeing here, I would've expected more bad excuses

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,037

    Your irrelevant diatribe aside, suicides on hook count in match statistics - DCs on either side nullify them.

    The point in question was whether suicide on hooks ate prevalent against these 'unfun' killers in matchmaking.

    It's not a killer vs survivor issue, regardless of whatever you're trying to frame.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    You're making it now... purely because of the chart. That is the key difference.

    Also, just to pick apart your Pig argument...

    1) She does not actually have slowdown. Survivors can do interactions at the same rate they just have an additional objective (maybe) to do. Freddy has a DIRECT effect on how fast you can do things, an ability no other killer has in their kit.

    2) "Multi-faceted kit" is the wrong phrase. Pig has 3 things she can do, put a RBT on a survivor, crouch and being undetectable, and do an ambush from crouch. You could could 2 of those as the same thing. Freddy does a lot more than Pig. Teleport, snares, pallets, stealth, oblivious, tracking (via snares).

    3) Freddy's add-ons are tiers above Pig's. Pigs strongest add-ons are gears, extra boxes, and timer, all of which are still RNG dependent and could be negated with just dumb luck. Rope/chains and paint brush are insanely more effective than her add-ons.

    4) As I said you came to this conclusion purely by looking at the chart. Which is what the devs said not to do. What I did was not that. I had the conclusion for a while, I am just using the chart to support what I am saying.

    You know full well that you are just strawmaning to derail the thread, and THAT is very intellectually dishonest thing to do.

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,037

    I guess you won't be addressing anything I've said, then.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    Here I edited the post but w/e

    _________________

    Also, just to pick apart your Pig argument...

    1) She does not actually have slowdown. Survivors can do interactions at the same rate they just have an additional objective (maybe) to do. Freddy has a DIRECT effect on how fast you can do things, an ability no other killer has in their kit.

    2) "Multi-faceted kit" is the wrong phrase. Pig has 3 things she can do, put a RBT on a survivor, crouch and being undetectable, and do an ambush from crouch. You could could 2 of those as the same thing. Freddy does a lot more than Pig. Teleport, snares, pallets, stealth, oblivious, tracking (via snares). He also has way better synergy with every top tier perk in the game, INCLUDING Pigs own Surveillance, and even to an extent Make Your Choice since he could, in theory, teleport back to a hook right after a save.

    3) Freddy's add-ons are tiers above Pig's. Pigs strongest add-ons are gears, extra boxes, and timer, all of which are still RNG dependent and could be negated with just dumb luck. Rope/chains and paint brush are insanely more effective than her add-ons.

    4) As I said you came to this conclusion purely by looking at the chart. Which is what the devs said not to do. What I did was not that. I had the conclusion for a while, I am just using the chart to support what I am saying.

    Now that I've dismantled your entire position I'm not going to discuss Pig because the thread is about Freddy. You know full well that you are just strawmaning to derail the thread, and THAT is very intellectually dishonest thing to do.

  • cannonballBcannonballB Member Posts: 301

    The problem I see with your conclusions are, they're all anecdotal based. You're using strictly your own experience without discussing with other people who play Freddy. The experience that 1 player has isn't representative of all experiences.

    I'm a bad bad player but I main Freddy. I get roughly half win half loss. The wins can be hard but the losses? When a team wants you to lose, you'll lose. This isn't a direct comment on balance, more I'm using the same anecdotal evidence you are. As far as I'm concerned, Freddy could use a buff because I'm not winning as many games as I'd like. 🤣😂

  • Nazeef13Nazeef13 Member Posts: 436

    As mentioned earlier, suicides on hook likely increase kill rate insignificantly in the stats as much as killer giving up decreases kill rate insignificantly.

    If one killer, (spirit or freddy), has more first-hook deaths/fewer killer give-ups, than other killers, it would probably be best to look at it as a symptom of their lack of counterplay.

    Similarly, how much does hatch giving influence the kill rate? Do stronger killers tend to give survivor's hatch more because they feel bad or satisfied for wiping the team so fast.

    These things tend to average out over both sides

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    More importantly than your experience is the CONSISTENCY of your experience.

    When I play Freddy at rank 1, the only teams that can CONSISTENTLY challenge me are 4 man SWF. Other groups might challenge me at times but it's not consistent. The only times I lose as Freddy, consistently, are when I make big mistakes or, sadly, because the game is failing (Xbox frame rates get worse and worse as you play, you need to reset the game every once in a while). Additionaly, as survivor Freddy is the most consistently difficult killer to play against. That means regardless of the player, other survivors, the map, the perks, or just good ole RNG, Freddy gives the most challenge CONSISTENTLY.

    On top of this it's not just my opinion. A lot of my friend share this opinion with me that Freddy is too strong. Some are killer mains with thousands of hours.

    So when I talk about my experience I'm talking about my experience, other's experience that I know or play with regularly, and the CONSISTENCY of all that experience over the last year or so, whenever it was they reworked Freddy.

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,037

    I guess my counters will never be read if you're not willing to discuss :(

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,037

    Not going to lie - Hatch giving is something that I did not even consider.

    Thanks for the insight.

  • cannonballBcannonballB Member Posts: 301

    Ok but opinions are still opinions, yes?

    Can you tell me how many people usually survive with a Freddy on average? Can you tell me how many games there are where some survivors escape and some don't? Can you tell me the various builds on the freddy's who've won and lost? Can you even tell me how much Freddy actually uses his power? This would determine if his power was too strong. Also, can you give me information on how many times survivors actually run over traps or get caught with fake pallets?

    Your conclusions are all anecdotal evidence with 1 specific chart that BHVR said literally do not do what you're doing.

    Sorry man, but your and your friends anecdotal "evidence" doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny. Especially if the hard evidence you have is 1 chart and the rest is "I feel like" or "I think". These are not facts, they're your observations. That's it.

    You have no argument because you have no basis for comparison. You have no idea what is and isn't right with his kit. You don't even know how often his powers are used.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    Copy paste them I'll reply. I don't have the time to read through 9 pages sorry.

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,037

    I think I'm just going to make a new topic and get some community opinions/insight.

    Hope to see you there :)

  • cannonballBcannonballB Member Posts: 301

    Yes. I did. It's still all anecdotal evidence. Anecdotal evidence means jack if you're trying to use facts for your arguments.

    The fact of the matter is, you are using your own experiences to say something is right or wrong. He does not have any data to back up his arguments. Just vague statements of "this is my experience". Cool story bro, but what about those that don't have that experience?

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227
    edited October 2020

    "Can you tell me how many people usually survive with a Freddy on average? "

    34%. I got that from the chart because that's what the chart literally is.

    "Can you tell me how many games there are where some survivors escape and some don't?"

    Why does this matter? He has very close to an average of a 3k, meaning 1 person is getting hatch enough to lower it and then Freddy is losing a 3k just enough to keep him below it. He is still ABOVE every other killer, including objectively strong killers like Spirit, Nurse, and Oni. And just as devs made a point about why Nurse's kill rate is so LOW, I could make the same points about Freddy's is so HIGH.

    "Can you tell me the various builds on the freddy's who've won and lost?"

    Honestly irrelevant. We aren't looking at builds we are looking at just Freddy. If I was saying "this particular build on Freddy is OP" this would be relevant to discuss.

    "Can you even tell me how much Freddy actually uses his power?"

    Again irrelevant. Freddy not using his power is basically an m1 killer, but even then he has passive effects that other killers do not get.

    "Sorry man, but your and your friends anecdotal "evidence" doesn't actually stand up to scrutiny. Especially if the hard evidence you have is 1 chart and the rest is "I feel like" or "I think". These are not facts, they're your observations. That's it."

    My observations of my own experience, other's experience, the consistency of all that experience, AND 2 sets of data to validate that experience. They are facts at this point.

  • cannonballBcannonballB Member Posts: 301

    Ok let me rephrase this. Please, what kind of hard evidence do you have? Other than your gut feelings (which can easily be wrong or ignore other sets of data that are relevent)?


    Do you have ANY evidence other than "my friends and I see him win a lot with strong perks so he's bad". This isn't evidence. Irs your gut feeling. I don't care if you've played literally 24 hours a day 7 days a week since it released. You're still using 1 *small* set of data. Your own. That's it.

  • cannonballBcannonballB Member Posts: 301

    If you want to win arguments and debates, bring facts. Anecdotal evidence gets you nowhere and I see a lot of anecdotal evidence on both sides here.

  • Micheal_MyersMicheal_Myers Member Posts: 1,143

    You do know that Killers are supposed to be "OP" and freddy still has counters. I've escaped multiple and multiple have escaped me.


    So it ain't that hard.

  • DARKBOI777DARKBOI777 Member Posts: 21

    Forgive me I didn't read the whole thing but from what I seen your right Freddy is crazy good and I can say both tinkerer and discordance are disgusting on Freddy I don't play this game to be over competitive but there is no lying how strong that is hell at one point I believe I use to use on Freddy BBQ discordance tinkerer and bloodwarden I believe it called to be fair I'm no pro at the game I'm only purple rank but my experience with this have been op as hell but like I said I don't play overly competitive I just used perks that sounded good for my playstyle

  • Micheal_MyersMicheal_Myers Member Posts: 1,143

    Plus how could Freddy hit a survivor if they weren't in the dream world? You are pretty much making Freddy 100% useless based on the "he must hit them first" yet it is known he can only attack when you are asleep.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 8,227

    Let me ask you this, what "hard evidence" would satisfy you? Because I don't have access to all of BHVR's data. Therefore all I can give you is my experience and what data they have given, but even then I make completely valid arguments about Freddy.

    Everyone wants to contest how I came to my conclusion instead of my conclusions themselves. Explain to me how anything I said about him is wrong. That he doesn't have the best gen pressure in the game, or free passives no other killer gets, or semi-stealth, or anit-chase mechanics.

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