Let me ask you this, what "hard evidence" would satisfy you? Because I don't have access to all of BHVR's data. Therefore all I can give you is my experience and what data they have given, but even then I make completely valid arguments about Freddy.
Everyone wants to contest how I came to my conclusion instead of my conclusions themselves. Explain to me how anything I said about him is wrong. That he doesn't have the best gen pressure in the game, or free passives no other killer gets, or semi-stealth, or anit-chase mechanics.
The counter to this is have people split up and be doing multiple gens at once. Freddy can only be in one place at once, so to counter that, spread out. 1 person looping well can run a Freddy in circles even with his traps. Don't be afraid of his teleporting because most of the time it's a mindgame. Also don't run towards a gen if you can help it because he can just teleport to it and hit you as you're running by.
Not really sure if you are making a joke or misunderstood something I was saying in the OP.
As you just said, you don't have access to bhvrs data. That is exactly where I'd look. Especially since the devs have told you to not only look at that chart. Unless I missed it, you don't even know what criteria the "win rate" is in that graphic. (This one I might have missed and it'd answer how many people escaped vs died.) The point of that question is, what constitutes a "win"? All 4 killed or just 2 killed? If it's only 2 that means 2 people still escaped and won. That would be pretty balanced, yes?
Free passives? I'm far more scared of killers that can expose you than I am of Freddy. I can run circles around Freddy lol but see, I don't use my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. See how that works?
As far as I can tell, I can still hit survivors which then puts them into the dream world. Maybe I have the mechanics backwards?
It's not "win rate' it's kill rate, therefore we know exactly how they get it. By killing survivors. The more survivors they kill, invariably, the stronger of a killer they are.
"Free passives? I'm far more scared of killers that can expose you than I am of Freddy. I can run circles around Freddy lol but see, I don't use my anecdotal evidence to counter yours. See how that works?"
A good Freddy will catch you because of snares, so I highly doubt this claim.
He will if you keep looping the same loop. Move away. I literally just listed to someone else how to counter Freddy. It's not hard.
Ok so how many games did he lose then? If that's the kill rate, that doesn't tell us if he won matches. All it says is he can kill.
My entire point here is, all your points are flawed *if* there's no data to back them up. I main Freddy. I still lose games. Somewhat often. And I'm not even in red ranks. I lose more than i win though. Having data of kill rate doesn't actually tell you if it's *win rate*. There's a difference.
And yes, kill rate can LEAD to win rate, but that's not definitive.
Doc has a 7% pick rate EWWWWWWW!!!!!!
Doc I have a far harder time countering than Freddy. His giant ass spark that gets a good portion of the map is aarrgghhhh.
Side question - what does bhvr consider a "win" for the killer? 1 kill? 2 kills? 4 kills?
Its because they have passive sleep.
Fox stated that if he were to change the dream mechanics that he would change that the dream time wouldn't count down until you hit them for the first time. But the timer just means you are in micro sleep. Which also means that Freddy could theoretically hunt you down. Removing the timer until the first hit would not canonically make any sense to his lore.
According to that chart we also need to massively have nurse buffed. Also pig is OP and needs a nerf. Also leatherface is better than spirit so she doesn't need a nerf and I'd totally fine.
Also. As a nurse main with 1.2k hours. She is by far the best killer in the game. Like miles away.
"Ok so how many games did he lose then? If that's the kill rate, that doesn't tell us if he won matches. All it says is he can kill."
A 'win' is subjective in this game. Kills are not. No one is basing their arguments on wins, they base it on kill rate and killer effectiveness.
"My entire point here is, all your points are flawed *if* there's no data to back them up."
Except I have 2 sets of data to back it up.
Wait, Freddy has lore here? [BAD WORD].
I'm a huge FredHead (it's why I main him) but it's obvious they used the remake version for him, which is bbllaahhhhhh. Microsleep is meh from a canonical perspective.
I figure they patterned him off the new Freddy for licensing reasons but man, I think OG Freddy would be amazing. And Nancy (instead of Quintin. Lame.) Bur since we have a Nancy, get us a Tina. Or even an Alice. Someone from the original series!
No. You don't.
There is not enough evidence. Good try though.
It makes complete sense, what about it doesn't make sense? The lore is supposed to be that he gets his power from people remembering him. If he never attacks someone he can't be remembered.
Furthermore lore should not supersede gameplay. It's a simple change that would make things better for both sides.
I do. Just because they said "don't draw conclusions" does not mean that the charts are meaningless. When you consider ALL this stuff the picture becomes pretty clear that Freddy needs to be tuned down some.
That's not how Freddy gets his power in the new movie. They never explain how he gets his power. He just really likes fear because it makes him all tingly inside, like Nancy did before he got flambe'd.
The old movies, him being remembered didn't really come into play until Freddy vs jason. If remembering was a thing, in freddy's dead the entire town remembered him.
You have 1 chart.
Vet me hard evidence and we will talk. Until then anecdotal evidence is useless. And that's all this forum (and to be fair, most gaming forums) has. It's ok - it's fine, but when pressed for facts, you can't use feelings.
So if "win" is subjective then I'd first like to know what the average is on kills per match. If he has 5000 matches and manages to kill at least 1 person every match, that's not really a bad thing. If he has 500 matches and kills all 4 every time, that's another. But he has counters.
Have I argued that Freddy is fine? Have I argued that Freddy doesn't need to be changed? I'm perfectly fine if he needs change. But I need to see something more than just whining.
Lol and yet none of this addresses the fact that you have no hard evidence. Just because you don't like being pressed doesn't mean it's an invalid argument. (By the way, you fall into group 4. Just an FYI)
The only bhvr stat you have is 1 graphic showing pick rate vs kill rate unless bhvr has actually shared their data with us all and I missed it.
The only echo chamber I see here is the anecdotal evidence chamber. Get me some hard data. Freddy is counterable, like hex perks.
They released a stat dump probably about this time last year, a few months after Freddy's rework, and even there he had a significantly higher kill rate at all ranks. They also included red ranks, where he was still the highest by a wide margin.
Comparing that one to this one it seems that EVERY killer's kill rate went down, but Freddy remains above every other killer by a statistically significant amount.
Also I never claim anything about counter play. YES he can be countered, I won't deny that, but he is still a very strong killer so much that he has the highest kill rate for well over a year.
Fair. Point noted.
I'll be clear. I do not know if Freddy is good or bad because I do not have enough information to determine that.
If I go by my own anecdotal evidence as well as the evidence I see of streamers, then I find I rarely get 4 kills, most of the time it's 1. I can't get to the other side of the map if my power is on cool down, so when they spread out I have no way of countering.
So as far as I'm concerned, Freddy isn't good enough. But I know better than to use my anecdotal evidence.
Bhvrs Stats aren't wrong. You're just taking them farther than they need to go, as even stated by them.
Ok THIS is getting somewhere! Tell me more.
This is good!!! This is data! Even if it's old days it's still something!! Now, give me some figures. Let's work out the math so we can provide stats to the devs that can show them where the breakdown is.
No freddy is not op. He is just very rewarding for being so easy to play. Look at the nurse statistic, which shows that this isn't taken from high ranks.
I must admit that i hate freddy. If you hate freddy i would recommend spinechill, its a very good and underrated perk that ruins his lullaby oblivous effect.
Most of his power actuelly comes from the sleep state, which ruins BT which is stupid, and makes camping good, so an easy fix would be to rework BT so it works on the hooked persons heatbeat.
Regarding to fixing freddy. I believe that the passive clock thing should be buffed, so they actually serve a purpose adding more time to be immune to freddys sleep.
But again, not fine if based on anecdotal evidence. It's backing up his "I feels" rather than "the data continues to show ..." See the difference?
Going to a dev and saying "his kit is bad because he can get anywhere fast. Then add perks and oh no! Now he can slow down AND kick gens to make them worse!". Yes. That's how the game is designed.
But going to s dev and saying "look. Your chart shows he has a pick rate of 3.(whatever) percent. His kill rate is 66%. Based on the other numbers you've given us, as well he really needs to not have 10 traps on the ground. 10 is way too many and he can put them everywhere. If you look at this data here, you can see that 85% of traps laid down are triggered. That's far too high if you have the ability to have 10. Don't you think a 50% chance would be more balanced?"
This example is literally the worst example I pulled out of my ass. You get the point.
want me to address all your points just so I can address this one thing? will that somehow mean that what I say will have a different meaning? No. it won't.
but apparently I'm not allowed to focus on one part of what you said...nooooooo... I need to talk about all the things to disagree on one point right?
so...sure...let's waste a bunch of my time to address this.
The fact that Freddy has a relatively low pick rate but a SIGNIFICANTLY higher kill rate should be a major red flag to BHVR that he is too strong.
why is that? all that means is only a few people play freddy. and apparently they got good at it.
IDC what you want to say about Nurse or Spirit, but Freddy is objectively one of if not the strongest killers in the game and there are multiple reasons for it.
why don't you care? do you not care about stuff that would show you freddy isn't the strongest killer in the game? so unbiased of you to take this position.
I must preface this with...
I was an old Freddy main at rank 1. I played him without Ruin or NOED and was still quite effective with him. However I would acknowledge that he was, at the time, the weakest killer in the game.
I don't see how this is relevant in any way shape or form. whatever level of skill you had with old freddy is not important when talking about new freddy.
I play new Freddy regularly at rank 1 and I find him to be hands down the most oppressive killer to play. Consistently. Like I win games regularly with 3 or more gens left, AND I rarely have to camp or tunnel.
fun anecdote. How can you measure how oppressive you are? do you think kills=opressiveness or gens left=opressiveness? how did you measure how opressive you are?
So why is Freddy so strong?
First is his teleport. He has the best map pressure in the game because he can instantly go to the gen you are working on.
No he can't. the teleport has a cooldown. and takes a while to finish teleporting after you start. giving the survivor time to hide.
No other killer can do this, save for Demo and Hag but they have to set up first which greatly reduces their pressure.
is billy not a thing anymore?
also... are you saying a hag with traps set up doesn't have pressure? have you watched high skilled hags play?
Every single gen slowing or gen tracking perk is borderline God tier on Freddy. BBQ, DIscordance, Surveillance, Tinkerer, Thana, Ruin, Pop (especially Pop). Yes these are good perks for many killers, but on Freddy they become exponentially more powerful.
same for billy.
high mobility killers can use bbq, discordance, surveillance, tinkerer, ruin and pop better than slower killers... who knew?
freddy is not even in the top 5 of thana users though... so bad example there.
Second is his snares. He has an anti-chase that is very similar to Clown. Say what you want about Clown, but a good Clown will catch you CRAZY fast.
no true scotsman much? So what? if I loop a clown a lot is not because I played well, it's because he's bad... right? yeah...great discourse to be had here.
well, if you can't loop a freddy, it's not because he's strong, it's because you're bad. (see? this argument is dumb)
Freddy is just a slightly weaker Clown in this aspect, as he can't plant a puddle in front of you during a chase. It is damn near impossible to run a good Freddy for very long around most loops just as it can be a good Clown. This is a minor issue however.
you mean you can't loop a killer with a strong anti loop power for too long?
Third is Dream World, or rather the fact it automatically gets Oblivious. This means that he gets a free BT counter, or any perk requiring a terror radius.
do you actually have any example that isn't bt?
it's just bt isn't it?
did you try waking up before going for a save?
Sure this hurts him too, but the perks he can't use aren't that great anyway (Unnerving, Insidious??? LOL). Infectious is probably the only TR perk that is good, but guess what? IT STILL WORKS FOR HIM! Yep try it, Infectious will make dreaming survivors scream. Oblivious doesn't stop that for some reason but it negates a lot of good survivor perks.
this is indeed wrong and should be fixed.
Fourth is stealth. He has built in semi-stealth due to him being INVISIBLE to awake survivors outside his TR and even sometimes in his TR.
that is on brand for freddy. hell... if you go with his actual powers, you shouldn't see at all while awake.
This means he can get really close to you while awake without you having a reasonable way to react. He is basically a Wraith.
you hear the terror radious and see him at that point. you have many reasonable ways to react. In many maps you can see any killer until he's super close either way, so I don't see what's so special about freddy here.
that and you spend what? 80% of the match asleep? freddy doesn't get to be invisible all that much.
Finally, he is the ONLY killer in the game with add-ons that affect gen speeds.
You have already been told this is wrong, so I won't bother repeating that
This is the big one. He has 3 add-ons that do this, and while they were nerfed that is not good enough. They shouldn't exist, period.
and all 3 of them are not good. they were before the nerf, but now their effect is minimal.
They look super strong because freddy's other addons are just crap in comparison. save for a couple of them.
Don't get me wrong, at first I loved them because my main tactic with old Freddy was to use range add-ons and tracking perks like Surveillance and Nurse's to permanently keep survivors asleep for that sweet 50% action penalty. It was a strong tactic, however since I had to put them to sleep myself it was fair since I had to be active to get that reward. But now you just fall asleep in 60 seconds OR when he hits you. You are going to be asleep more than 50% of the game easily, and usually without any action on the killer's part. Basically he just gets this stuff for free by equipping an add-on.
he gets 50% reduction for free? really? wanna run the math with me on that one?
Let's summarize... Freddy is basically a combination of Hag, Wraith, and Clown with built in BT counter and passive slow down that no other killer has access too.
Replace hag with demogorgon. freddy is limited on his teleports while hag isn't.
Pig has access to a bt counter and argueably the best slow down in the game. You really need to stop with this "no other killer can do the same" thing that you keep doing... did you not check? ever?
My entire point here is that Freddy just has WAY WAY too much in his base kit
he has a teleport and snares.
anything else you talked about isn't base kit
wanna see a quick list of killers that have a similar amount of things base kit?
pig has stealth, slow down and a dash attack.
billy has the highest mobility in the game and an instant down.
ghostface has stealth and an instant down.
demo has a little stealth, a teleport, full map detection and a dash attack.
so no... I don't think freddy has "WAY WAY too much in his base kit"
and that is why he has such a significantly higher kill rate compared to other killers.
that's your opinion. I think he has that kill rate because he's easy to do well with.
You can say "don't draw conclusions from data alone" remember that I told you I play new Freddy at rank 1 and my experience is that he is oppressive.
different people think diferent killers are more opressive than the others.
why do you think your experience means more than anyone elses? Which metric did you use to determine that?
Furthermore, as survivor, a good Freddy with a strong slow down build is one of the most difficult killers to beat.
a good killer with a strong build is hard to beat? wow...
next you'll tell me that a good 4 man SWF survivor team is hard to beat...
Literally your only chance against a killer like this is to run in a 4 man SWF,
I play solo and have beaten several good freddys.
but I guess they aren't really "good freddys" right?
the good freddys are obviously only the ones that have beaten me... definetively... right? /s
which anyone who plays this game could tell you is already broken, but I digress.
So what is the solution? How do we fix this?
You have yet to demonstrate the problem
I'm not just making this post to complain, I'm making it to offer a suggestion.
we all know you are doing both
Now I have been writing down my ideas for changes to Dead By Daylight I would like to see that I believe would improve the game. It's a lot, I will just copy and paste what I wrote for Freddy. Let's take a look...
Survivors no longer passively fall asleep at the start of the game and do not see the sleep clock until they are hit and put into the Dream State at least once.
to me this is perfectly fair
Dream Snare radius reduced by 20%.
I don't see how this would change anything.
Oblivious removed from Dream World.
what does the dream world do now?
Nightmare can be always seen by awake survivors within 32m.
again, perfectly fair.
Remove stacking penalty on Snap Clap wake up action.
I would add a limit to how much the penalty goes. but removing this would make the clocks entirely useless.
Cat Block, Z Block, Pill Bottle, Paint Thinner, Outdoor Rope, Jump Rope, and Swing Chains reworked.
Cat Block inflicts Haemorrhage on sleeping survivors. Healthy survivors that are asleep will bleed.
so make it z block? it's still crap...
Z Block inflicts Mangled on injured survivors that are asleep and blocks the aura of their dream clock outside of 32m.
do you wanna remove the slowdown effects or add more of them? seems contradictory.
also... I think removing the clock aura works against freddy. let them waste a minute running across the map to wake up.
Pill Bottle makes the Nightmare; disappear intermittently to awake survivors; invisible to sleeping survivors outside of 32m.
Paint Thinner reveals the survivor's aura for 4 seconds upon falling asleep.
this seems very meh... how often do survivors even wake up?
also... what about the pallets?
Outdoor Rope greatly increases interaction time for each successive Snap Clap.
so...what should be base kit in an addon? totally not silly...
Jump Rope causes the survivor's dream clock to move to a new location every 30 seconds.
even less incentive to go to the clock?
totally what freddy wants.... /s
Swing Chains causes Dream World to inflict the Oblivious status effect.
Garden Rake and Prototype Claws Dream Tokens reduced to 8.
why? pallets are easy to deal with already, why reduce them?
Prototype Claws aura reading removed. Prototype Claws inflict Hindered for 10 seconds on survivors that interact with Dream Pallets.
damn...what a nerf.
but fair... it's totally not in the survivors control if they get revealed or not right? and freddy is ALWAYS looking at them /s
Kid's Drawing adds 5 Dream Tokens.
totally...yeah... I absolutely would use this. totally not useless. /s
you somehow made the meme addon less useable...damn...
So let's unpack this.
The first line is actually a slight nerf and buff to Freddy, as one of his only drawbacks is that you KNOW it's a Freddy right when the game starts. This would give some leeway at the start of the game for survivors, and also give Freddy more element of surprise opportunities. Though of course once he hits someone they would see, but the point is he would have a bit more spook at the start. Once you hit them the clock appears and it functions as normal.
and again, this is fine
Making Dream Snares smaller means it would take better planning in their use. I feel like I can just spam them without care and they do more than what I need them to do. At least require me to use to skill here.
again, this would literally change nothing.
Next. we basically take away all the "fluff" from Freddy's base kit. The goal is to shift most of them to his add-ons.
and that, is a terrible goal. making a killer more addon reliant is never good.
Pill Bottle is a bad add-on IMO, it does nothing for him.
Didn't you spend quite a bunch of time saying his stealth is too good?
You should really update your stuff instead of just copy-pasting it.
This new version would do something for him. Notice how for most of these things while I offer to take away something from his base kit and move it to an add-on, I'm actually buffing it in the process because it now requires an add-on and therefore can be a tad better.
you literally made it worse mate.
you nerfed the range. and gave it nothing in return.
This all opens up new builds for Freddy. I enjoy add-ons that change how a killer functions over straight up making something they do faster or stronger. It leads to more interesting emergent gameplay.
and yet it's not what you did with your changes. all you did was limit freddy.
The dream pallet add-ons I feel are redundant. You don't need 3 of them, hell 1 is enough. So let's take Paint Thinner and do something else with it
I agree he doesn't need more than one.
but you also made paint thinner [BAD WORD]...
what I suggest is reminiscent of old Freddy and I would enjoy this as both killer and survivor.
so enjoyable to see an aura every 10 min in game...great stuff.
people don't wake up genious... it won't activate more than maybe 10 times total in a match. and more than half of them will be when you won't be able to use the information, wether because you are already chasing someone or because it's literally the person you are chasing.
and the ones where you aren't chasing someone? it's the guy that just came out of the hook. so you made a tunneling perk... survivors love those...
I only kept 2 dream pallet add-ons because I honestly couldn't think of another thing for Claws to do.
that's sad... I can give you like 5 different thing right now...
1- reduces the sleeping clock time by a set amount
2- decreases teleport charge time
3- reduces lullaby range
4- shows the aura of asleep survivors in a small range
5- gives freddy the ability to "unteleport" meaning, after a very small amount of time after he teleports, he can press the power button again and return to where he was before the teleport
All the slow down add-ons are gone and in it's place are add-ons that are still really good but not stupid to play against.
"still really good"... HA!
when was the last time you saw someone saying survivors focusing more on doing gens instead of going to clocks to wake up is good for freddy? or doing gens instead of waking each other up?
Giving Oblivious in Dream World as an add-on is acceptable. Base kit it is not.
and why is that? bt counter? other killers also have bt counters in their base kit mate.
you need to give better reasoning
Finally we make his lame BP add-on a bit better.
it's funny that you think you made it better... there' literally no reason to use it over literally anything else.
This is just to offset the fact his snares just got worse.
technically, yes they did.
also, the terrible addon no one would ever use is compensation for the nerf? damn... you are cruel.
But even if the addon wasn't terrible, you literally didn't solve the thing you consider to be the problem with them.
so a terrible reward that does nothing is compensation for a dumb nerf that changed nothing... quite fitting
These are just my suggestions, obviously they won't be implemented but something like this would be a good change for Freddy. If you guys have suggestions you are free to put them here.
Be aware I'm not looking to argue with anyone about whether Freddy is too strong or not.
I know that. You have already decided he is and won't listen to anyone telling you otherwise no matter what they bring to the discussion.
totally not a terrible person to have a discussion with... /s
He very much is
You have yet to demonstrate this
and the chart above confirms it.
it does not.
We need to discuss ways to fix this.
No we don't. Because you have yet to demonstrate that there is something that needs fixing.
besides infectious fright working on sleeping survivors, that is indeed bs and should not be the case.
well then... there it is. I replied to your entire first post without mentioning the chart (besides when you mentioned it first) wasn't this a great use of my time?
can we focus on the part I wanna talk about now?
Or is there any other bs reason we can't?
Saying "devs said blah" is not a perfectly good reason,
first, yes it is. the data came from them.
second, I gave you other reasons. you are just too stubborn.
especially when I can point to the previous data dump and demonstrate a clear pattern with Freddy.
you actually haven't done that. You said he is too strong and said the stats confirm it.
you didn't demonstrate a pattern between them and didn't even attempt to. You are just holding the stats up as shield to protect your opinion from people calling you out on it.
You already decided freddy is op and took things that don't demonstrate that, as proof that he is.
and is now acting like a child when people correctly tell you that this is not that the graphs shows.
because the strenght of a character, is not part of the graph.
the graph only shows 2 things. how often a character is picked and how many kills he gets on average.
ANYTHING ELSE you get from them, are your INTERPRETATION of things, NOT what things actually are.
LEARN. TO. READ. GRAPHS.
THAT IS THE RED FLAG.
the pattern you didn't demonstrate?
guess that means there isn't a red flag, since you failed to provide the pattern.
My argument in the OP was drawn from not the charts.
Just because the chart isn't your only reason, it doesn't mean you didn't present it as an argument.
I said you drew your conclusion from it. at least partially. and you did.
"and the chart above confirms it." - what is this if not you using the chart as an argument?
You claim I am doing that when I am not.
again, "and the chart above confirms it." - what is this if not you using the chart as an argument?
That is exactly what strawman is. You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart.
1st- I never said you drew your conclusions solely from the chart. I said it was partially from it
2nd- the definition of a strawman is
is a form of argument and an informal fallacy of having the impression of refuting an argument, meanwhile the proper idea of argument under discussion was not addressed or properly refuted.
which is ironically, what you are doing right now...
You claim I am doing that...
You draw attention away from my actual argument to make the (false) accusation that I am drawing a conclusions solely from this one chart...
these are all examples of you strawmanning me.
This entire time my point has been that
and yet you failed to address that time and time again.
up until this comment I hadn't even expressed my opinion on if freddy is op or not, because it was completely irrelevant.
If you use the wrong strategy, but reaches the correct answer, it still means you used the wrong strategy.
and when I criticize your strategy, the answer is irrelevant.
Not once do either of you actually address my points
Because that's not what I was trying to do.
or try to refute the evidence
Your only evidence is anecdotes and the graphs.
How can you say I didn't try yo refute the evidence when the graphs are part of it?
other than to say basically "this is completely inadmissible as evidence of anything because the devs said so".
and again, strawman.
How many times do I need to tell you that the graphs don't show that freddy is op just because you want them to?
if you wanna say "Freddy is the most lethal killer in both graphs, therefore he is op" then you MUST accept the argument "Nurse is the least lethal killer in both graphs, therefore she is the worst".
We both know the second argument is BS. Why do you think yours is any better? (spoiler alert, it's just as BS as the nurse one but you refuse to see it)
Now, mister "you need to address everything"... I'm looking forward to your reply to absolutely EVERYTHING I said in this post.
If you don't address everything, then anything you say can be dismissed by me. (that's how it works right?)