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Moris and Keys were never equals

Moris have ALWAYS been stronger than keys. Period

The only counterplay to a Mori is "don't get caught" and even the best players get caught so..... that's not counterplay.

Keys on the other hand have many work around and more conditions to use. ALSO, they WILL be changed, but they aren't as pressing an issue as Moris were. So it makes sense to change them at different times. The bigger issue was changed first and that's the way it should be.

Eliminating a player from a match in less than 60 seconds should never have been possible and it's small pp energy for people who just insta tunneled and one hook mori'd people

Comments

  • Cerebral_HarlotCerebral_Harlot Member Posts: 270

    Both of them had the unhealthy effect of denying certain states of the game for either side. Killers would not be allowed to play the last gens/endgame and survivors would not be allowed to play past when their second hook would be (though practically much earlier since there is no fear of ds).


    The fact that Mori's were changed so they no longer do this is objectively good for the game and I am looking foward to the devs changing keys to allow killers more gameplay during the last gens/endgame with them out, but obviously this is a more complex change that is going to take longer to do.

  • MadLordJackMadLordJack Member Posts: 8,818

    And when you put a key, an old Ebony, and 5 good players into a trial they key will come out on top because that's 3 gens in 2 minutes and they will leave their teammates hanging til the last possible second. Meaning only 1 gen has to be finished and then it's 3 people out.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,638
    edited December 2020

    That is extremely rare in public matches, even with SWF. When people bring keys against me, they usually don't get to use it. When I or a SWF-mate bring a key, we usually either die before we get to use it, or we use it in a game we were already going to win handily for some extra objective points.

    Even in a really sweaty game like that, though, the killer still has the opportunity to take the key out of the game. All you need to do is run Franklin's, down the person with the key, hook them near the key, and camp the key/hook until the key is gone. Then the survivors need to choose between feeding you free pressure and losing their key. If all four survivors bring a key then yeah good luck with that, but that's also going to be extremely rare given how rare keys already are in the bloodweb. I have personally never seen more than two keys in a game as killer or survivor in 1000+ hours. Still, agreed, in a game like that with a hatch offering your best case scenario is pretty much a 2k.

    It's not an automatic three gens in two minutes either, even against good teams, and especially against Ruin/Tinkerer or Pop. That assumes a slow first chase and that survivors spawn separately.

  • Demogordon_RamsayDemogordon_Ramsay Member Posts: 1,503

    So, Survivors being bad = Keys fine, nerf moris.

    Gotcha.

  • CanasCanas Member Posts: 430

    Moris are the only equalizer if you're up against a SWF sweatsquad. Now killers are entirely at the mercy of these groups.

  • AChaoticKillerAChaoticKiller Member Posts: 3,104

    I disagree it depended on the key user and if a swf was involved.

    A good swf will get at least 3 gens done maybe 4 on a losing game before they split up, find hatch, then 2-3 escape.

    Sure most of the time mori's are stronger but in competitive situations key's force the killer to lose.

  • Falkner09Falkner09 Member Posts: 346

    yeah because moris arent given out in the middle of a match due to RNG.

  • HopesfallHopesfall Member Posts: 828

    What is the counterplay to keys in chests? just bring Franklin's every match? sounds about as realistic as saying don't get tunneled huh

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,638

    No, nerf Moris because they were the single most unbalanced loadout element in the entire game. Also nerf keys, because they are strong and bother people, even though they don't bother me. Don't nerf keys because they're as strong as Moris, though, because they're not. Don't get mad at the devs because they didn't nerf keys and Moris in the same patch, because the balance of one is independent of the balance of the other and it's unrealistic for the devs to balance their game in a single Z patch.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,638
    edited December 2020

    If you're looking for keys in the middle of the match, you are almost certainly hurting your team. Red and purple keys are relatively rare from chests even with Plunderer's, and if you don't find one you just wasted a ton of time that would have been much better spent doing gens. If you do find a key, you basically paid it forward in all of the matches you tried and failed to find a key, didn't do gens, and died when you didn't have to. Plus, even if you do find a key, there's also no guarantee it will ultimately do anything to help you in the match. People with keys are commonly killed before they get to use their key, hatch escapes in the EGC often make the key irrelevant, easy escapes through the exit gates make the key irrelevant, Franklin's can cause you to lose the key, etc.

    The one real exception is if you're played yourself into a brutal corner three gen and you realize that it's just not likely for you to ever complete one of those gens. In that case there's really no reason not to look for a key. That should not happen unless your team is brain dead, though.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,638
    edited December 2020

    It counters itself. The default chance of finding a key in a chest is 7%. This includes green keys, though, so let's ballpark 5% for pink and purple keys. There are 3 chests by default. A 5% chance over three attempts gives you approximately a 1 in 7 chance of finding a key during a given match. In 6 of 7 matches, you basically threw the game by searching for keys instead of doing gens. In that 1 match in 7, sure, the key could save your life... or you still may have been better served by rushing gens. You could also still die without getting to use the key, you could escape through the gates, you could escape through the open hatch in the EGC, etc. All that to say that matches in which you find a chest key and in which that key saves your life when you otherwise would have died if you did gens are extremely rare. In the vast majority of cases, you're just increasing your likelihood of dying by searching chests. You more than pay forward those extra escapes you get from chest keys.

    Even with Plunderer's it's still only about a 1 in 4 chance of finding a key in a match btw.

    ----

    "But what if everyone runs Plunderer's and Appraisal and they stack coins!" - Yeah, they could make it extremely likely to find a key in a chest by doing that, but they'd be sacrificing eight perks and multiple offerings when they could alternatively just bring a key from their inventory.

    So, to summarize, chest keys aren't an issue. Keys in general, sure, but not keys from chests.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,638
    edited December 2020

    Sweat squads that are so strong you actually have no chance against as killer are extremely rare. I say this in part because I am not a god-tier killer, but I play at red ranks (relevant for matchmaking only) and when I lose even against good teams it's usually because I over-committed to a chase, inadvertently eat a DS or two, etc. Every once in a while I'll have matches where I feel I actually had no chance, but with matchmaking how it is there's also a fair chance that those players were just better than me.

    The other elephant in the room is that kill rates are ~68% at red rank, which is comfortably higher than at all ranks. If kill rates are that high and actually go up at red ranks, that to me says that these killer-stomping sweat squads have to be extremely rare. The only alternative is basically that those squads always smurf, which just isn't likely.

    ------

    Until we have a working MMR system and we can see how the game plays at the highest skill tier I don't think it's reasonable to draw conclusions about the killer having no chance in matches. It could well be the case against most killers on most maps, mind you, but too often it feels like a shield people hide behind, because it's easier than analyzing how they might have changed the outcome of a given match through better play.

  • VetratheneVetrathene Member Posts: 1,251

    I think killer still has a chance in any match, but they have to put in eight times the effort of each survivor to get there. Its more stressful, because it takes so much more concentration, thinking, and reading other players. It requires dealing with second chance perks that all work togther while gen slowdown perks don't. Its fighting uphill on a surface that can tilt nearly vertically, and isn't always fun.

  • notstarboardnotstarboard Member Posts: 3,638

    Yeah, I'd definitely agree with you there. In some games you can relax and mess around with the survivors a bit, but against good teams you need to be laser focused on not wasting time and making the right play.

  • VetratheneVetrathene Member Posts: 1,251

    Yep, and when one mistake can make or break a game, thats not very good for fun or balance in my opinion.

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