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The real question is: do we really want a perfect MMR?

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  • MeltingPenguinsMeltingPenguins Member Posts: 3,435

    The devs got it a bit backwards right now. As in, sure, this is just a test, but, as long as they still declare things like tunneling, slugging, camping, and swf without any identification as such to be fair and square and legit and 'necessary' you can't really have a 'skillbased' system.

    Like, when you have people who get to red ranks within a week through tunneling, camping and slugging, do they have any skill with the killer they're playing? no.

    When survivors get to red ranks in a week cause they are continuously on swfs with voicechat (and maybe even got pulled by an experienced player) do they have skill? no.

    On the flipside: when you have people who let survivors go because they're good enough that the match would have ended fairly quickly (as in 4-6 hooks before the second gen) and they felt pity/compassion, are they bad? on the contrary.

    when you have survivors that know how to counter the various killers et all but take a lot of hits/hooks on purpose to protect their teammates and theoretically could get all of the others out, do they lack skill cause they got hit/hooked often and didn't do much in terms of gens? no.


    So, until the mechanics etc aren't overhauled a skillbased system won't pan out.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 21,675
    edited June 2021

    (I'm taking a short break, figured I'd pop back in.)

    Just because something is harder to do or more entertaining to watch/play against doesn't mean it's more skilled. A skilled player will find and use the most efficient ("efficient" meaning "that which guarantees the highest winrate for the least amount of effort) way to win. Using the most efficient way to win shows that the player understands the intricacies of the game.

  • stockstock Member Posts: 6
    edited June 2021

    Well it kinda works but the experience is not the best...

    For the survivor side, I used to be red rank and after a few of months of hiatus I came back to rank 20 which was not great, got up to 13 till they implemented this new ranking system and every since I only play against rank 1 killers, which is good but also bad. I still get my pip here and there but since I play either solo or duo every game is a try hard to survive, that is problematic not for me but for others as the rate of DC's is now very very high, the game becomes very much impossible to get out If a survivor DC's on his first down.

    Which begs the question, should DBD be competitive?

    I agree something needs to be done about smurfs and toxic swfs but in my opinion this is not the answer. If you want competitive setting join a community that caters to that, the addons roulette and map dependent RNG does not belong in a competitive setting so for that reason I'm against DBD matchmaking. The amount of DC's is what kills my joy playing this game.

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 5,306

    I think skill based matchmaking is a terrible idea without a non-competitive queue. The devs are very out of touch on this issue IMO.

    I have many friends who absolutely hate sweaty games but have thousands of hours. MMR will cause them to stop playing if it's going to put them against sweaty killers all the time.

    Even considering someone like myself who plays comp: every game I played on Nurse last night had every survivor with a minimum of 3k hours amd some combination of SWF. There is no chill possible for me anymore if this turns on permanently. Add ons are now mandatory, and I can't run a chill build. It's exhausting.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    You need 4 people online and wouldn't update your rank and bloodpoints gain

    To put it mildy, telling people to play custom games to have fun, is basically saying to play custom ow so you can be creative, I mean yes technically you can do that, but why don't you have it available in the first place without having to stage everything out?

  • OldHunterLightOldHunterLight Member Posts: 3,000

    Yes and no, most of those times I just find all players with IF and finish asap.

    I don't think this is sweating

    https://www.speedrun.com/dead_by_daylight/run/y2xjo0wm

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460
    edited June 2021

    If you are playing to earn Blood Points and Rank, it isn't casual. You are going up against other people, not usually your close friends. There is nothing casual about that, and it is UNREAONSABLE for you to expect them to give you casual games. However, you can get casual games twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week with a Custom Game and everything you need is unlocked for you. And for the record, with literally five minutes of time (or less) on Discord you can have total strangers willing to jump on and play in your custom game with you.

    All you have to say is, "I'm setting up a casual game right now for people who don't want to be sweatlords... any takers?" You will get more responses than you have room for. So let's put aside this false pretense that you want a casual game. What you want is an EASY game where your opponents are weaker than you and thus it "feels" like they aren't giving 100%. When in fact, many of them might be sweating as hard as they can, but you are just better than them. I'm sure they think YOU are the Sweatlords, when you think you are playing a casual game. Everything is relative.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    Do you know why custom games aren't used a lot in most videogames now days? Because you don't have the satisfaction of progressing, it's just another party game.

    What I said I want isn't to only have chill games, but to go in dbd with the mentality "I'm going to play some dbd games to chill and maybe finally upgrade my goddamned hag to p3"

    Side note, you can't unlock prestige in custom games, which I'm unironically obsessed about. So stating that every casual player should play custom games, is basically asking half the player base to ######### off and let true sweaty gamers take their place. Which would hurt dbd, wouldnt it?

    Also what are you describing is like what some people want, a casual option in dbd and a ranked option, which would hurt both the matchmaking wait times and dbd as a whole, that's why the devs said they won't add it. And what you're describing is even worse, because you won't even be rewarded with bloodpoints.

    I really don't get why you think that way honestly, I admit I don't know how many people play dbd casually, but I bet that if you told that side of the community to play custom games because that will be fufilling for them, then they wouldn't really like that.

    I don't play only to have fun, I also wanna feel the satisfaction of playing against someone whomst I probably don't know (even better if I know them and we meet randomly) so I can progress through the game, unlock new stuff and have a good time

    Forgot to mention! Custom games don't even grand shards! So it will be impossible for someone to purchase fun characters without paying for them! And if you say that all casual players should buy stuff that could be purchased via in-game currency because they don't wanna spend time sweating, then that is really ######### up!

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    Then quit lying and saying you want a casual game. Those aren't for progression; they are just for "fun" and nothing else.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    Interesting that you didn't contest my points there. So you basically say that I don't want to have a game where it's casual and I can progress whilst having fun? I could be mistaken, can you please rephrase your sentence if I am? I'd appreciate it

  • T2KT2K Member Posts: 637

    I would love perfect mmr! And I do believe DbD needs it!

    Im a player who likes the mix of casual and competetive games. Till now I get awful matchmaking with players all over the place in ranks, skill and whatsoever.

    With a perfect mmr I could be paired up with players at my level. If I feel competetive, I would work on raising my mmr and get matched with also higher mmr players. If I feel casual, after some games my mmr will adjust. And problem solved for me Compared to right now its just a mess. But since the mmr testing is live I experienced actually good matchmaking. Sorry for the ones who had not similiar luck.

  • whammigobambamwhammigobambam Member Posts: 1,081

    The games will still be wildly varying. Do I want reliable teammates more consistently? Yes. Do I want good survivors to play against sometime without having to grind for weeks only to start all over again? Yes.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    Your points are irrelevant, and nonsensical. Casual games are low stakes. You appear to want your rewards and have it easy, i.e. casual. It doesn't work that way. If you want rewards, you have to EARN them. If you want to play for fun, you can do that anytime you want. Quit pulling our collective legs.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    It's also interesting that you've been increasingly more and more hostile. I apologize if my behavior is at fault here, but let me give a counterargument:

    In almost every game that has rewards there is an easy and a hard way to get them. In most competitive games, you have more than two options, one of them is money, the other one is playing a casual mode, which gives you stuff, but if you play a ranked mode it gives you the same stuff....but more.

    So what if I want to get rewards whilst having fun? Remember that in a videogame fun must outweigh the sweatiness. If it doesn't then the game will lose popularity extremely fast. Also, pardon me but, how big of stakes does dbd have? I'll leave that to you, but I think that the stakes here are extremely low. If you say that the stakes is how much pip you'll get, you describe every multiplayer game.

    Also getting rewards "easily" isn't necessarily a bad thing now is it? Why shouldn't a casual player gain access to content because they're casuals? Every other game simply rewards you for being more and more competitive. So for example, if you want to reach level 100 from level 90 in league, you can either play a lot of casual matches or play ranked matches, which will give you more exp than casual matches.

    You seem to think that having fun and getting rewards cannot coexist. But look at most multiplayer games, and you'll see that they coexist, and that's why they're popular. Videogames aren't designed as a grind simulator, they're designed to unlock stuff whilst having fun. If dbd turns full competitive without a casual system to balance it out, then we will have your philosophy which might destroy the game. The philosophy of:

    You will either sweat to unlock ######### or have fun and don't progress at all.

    What I'm asking is:

    You will either unlock stuff faster whilst sweating, or unlock stuff slower whilst having fun.

    Ps: please explain what "quit pulling out collective leg" means, because I see that people don't entirely disagree with my points :)

  • T2KT2K Member Posts: 637

    I have to say, I see it like @Moundshroud.

    This goes for every game, not just dbd. If you want casual games centered around fun, you play offline, casual mode (like kyf), or you play online/ranked/competetive and get stomped for playing around. Theres no reason you should be provided with anything but fun when you playing around and want fun.

    If you say you want to maximize your bps and at the same time have a casual game, its just a stomp game. And I can guarantee you most of the time at least one player has a miserable time.

    I dont think its good matchmaking if one side gets stomped.

    You just want two things that dont go well together in view of a healthy matchmaking.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    In most multiplayer games you have the option to progress whilst having the option to either sweat or play casually, and it works. I can think only a few games where you can choose either the one or the other.

    But I can think a ton where you can choose both. Examples: in rainbow six siege you can get points by playing a casual mode, an unranked mode and a ranked mode. The only difference is that you get a bit more points on the ranked than the unranked and casual. And it works for them (same with exp)

    In league it's the exact same thing, you get more exp and a bigger boner when you win a ranked game rather than a normal game.

    I would mention ow but I don't remember if the same thing applies there, even tho I'm sure it does.

    Go through your games that have a multiplayer system and see if any of these have the same features I mentioned.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    Those other games are also irrelevant. What you fail to grasp is what is casual, i.e. easy for you is miserable for someone else. They are not having fun. The only way you get a "casual" game is if someone else gets a wicked hard one. Thus, MMR seeks to create balance. It means you and your opponents should be evenly matched and thus your rewards are EARNED.

  • T2KT2K Member Posts: 637

    Yeah there are some that give you progress. Not denying it.

    But then it would be the question about why kyf doesnt give you any bps, wouldnt it?

    Also you spoke of maximizing your bps while playing casual. And even in your examples you said you get a lot more in ranked in those games. If you want to apply this logic to dbd it means you have to sweat for it in online mode.

    So you are left with

    -sweating for a lot of bps

    -casual for a few bps

    And the fact you can find games where you chill and get a lot of bps put of it, is the prime example of bad matchmaking.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    You don't need to necessarily win a casual match. A casual match is basically a match where both teams don't directly intent to try hard. If you've played any other game that has two different modes, you'd know that. So, the other side doesn't necessarily has a bad time, does it?

    Let me give you an example, I play pig and someone crouches and points at me. At that moment there are two different alternatives that we can picture, in the first of I attack the survivor which gives him the message that I wanna sweat, so in order for him to make the game less boring, he will either kill himself to try to have a more casual game, which is unlikely, or he will make the chase as lengthy as possible because he wants to give his team, which might be tryharding, a chance to tryhard and improve their ranks.

    In the other scenario I will crouch and allow him to boop my snoot, giving him the impression that I don't take the game seriously. In that case most of his team won't take the game seriously if we all goof around and have fun.

    I can try hard as ghostface, or I can constantly tbag during chases to make the game more fun.

    In a lot of multiplayer games, the ranked mode features players extremely close to your mmr, whereas in casual the mmr is a bit more open, which makes fun and enjoyable games.

    So no, I don't want easy games, I want casual games, where I can have fun and the other team can choose to have fun. Which will be extremely hard to do if I get faced with extremely high mmr people, won't it?

    Also when I want rewards in a casual setting, I don't mean getting rewards when I bully a baby nurse, I mean I want rewards even tho everyone in the game was goofing around

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    Or you can add another mode that is a casual mode, where people don't necessarily take the game seriously, but that is something the devs don't want. If they add bp in a custom match everyone would abuse that.

    So we can't have bp and exp granded in custom games, and we can't have two modes in dbd. So what's left?

    Either we will completely destroy the fun that one side of the dbd community has so we can leave more place for sweaty players, or

    The matchmaking should not be perfect so it can create fun games sometimes and sweaty games other times

    Am I incorrect?

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    Again, nothing but irrelevant points. If you haven't setup a custom game, you have no idea if the other person is "trying hard" or not. You just like to tell yourself that because it sounds better to your ear than admitting that you are making other people miserable. There is a line here; on one side of it there is me, the guy who wants an evenly matched game and to earn my rewards. On the other side there is you, who wants "casual" games where nobody tries so hard but you reap the SAME rewards I do. Why do you feel you DESERVE the same rewards and progression other people have to work for? Where does this ENTITLEMENT come from. Where I come from, you reap what you sow and you earn what you get.

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 5,306

    Believe me when I say it takes more than 5 minutes to set up a custom match in DbD. You're lucky if the lobby doesn't crash half the time when everyone is on PC. Good luck when it's cross platform and some people have cross progression linked. I've seen it take an hour before with multiple support staff on hand.

    But more to your point, it's often the perks and killers casual players aren't finding fun. Nobody wants to play against a Ruin/Pop/Tinkerer Deathslinger, for instance. With enough hours, that killer can exist with that build and have a relatively high MMR and get matched with 4 friends who are just trying to goof off with flashlights, not necessarily trying to win, but who also get boosted to that MMR because memeing around in a SWF will beat most killers. The killer and the survivors are playing very different styles but achieving the same MMR.

  • CLAUDETTEINABUSHCLAUDETTEINABUSH Member Posts: 2,210

    First of all, I tried to be polite but your language shows me that you won't stop being aggressive, so sit down kid and allow me to explain myself

    What I want is to be able to have fun, unsurprisingly, you CAN have fun whilst the opposing side has fun. It is possible, in a CASUAL SETUP. I suppose you only sweat your games so you feel that it's impossible to have FUN in a video game.

    In most successful games ever developed you CAN have the same rewards that sweaty people have, whilst playing CASUALLY. So what's your problem here? Am I the entitled one that I wanna have fun AND unlock stuff, something featured in literally most multiplayer games?

    If someone has irrelevant points, then that would be you dude. I showed examples, games where you can unlock stuff whilst having fun. What did you show huh? You just said "oH yOu cAnT hAvE fUn AnD uNlOcK sTuFf!1!1!1!!1". I have evidence that it is possible, I showed examples. Show me your proof, come on then. You should be incredibly entitled to demand that other people must get less stuff because you tryhard on your games, and people who wanna have fun and enjoy themselves should go ######### themselves and play customs instead.

  • T2KT2K Member Posts: 637

    I do think you can abuse it, although I would argue it doesnt matter when you look at the absurd amount of grind in this game :D

    I also agree that most likely we are left with only one mode to earn bps, pips and shards for all eternity.

    And here I disagree. And I think this is the point what its all about. You say, you can only have fun games because of the unbalanced matchmaking. I say you can have fungames with a balanced matchmaking.

    I know those kind of games where you fool around, equip wglf, a flashlight and hope for a bad killer. I got plenty of them and they were crazy fun for me. And I can have those kind of games in a high working mmr too. But I dont expect to escape in the end then or that I can troll the killer for the majority of the match.

    And I can use silly meme builds as killer as well in high rank or mmr. I can have fun times, but I dont expect to get a 4k out of it.

    So how are you not abe to have fun when going against your caliber of player? pls explain to me.

    A working mmr system would only provide the playerbase with less stomps, but not less fun. And dont forget, sweatlords have fun in competetive matches, so they play sweaty. Chill gamers in casual games, so they play chill. In mmr you are less like to be paired in a sense of sweaty with casual.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460

    That very well may be true, but that is the GAME. We all roll the dice and take our chances when we queue up. If you want to be assured you don't run into a specific Killer or certain builds, that is what as CUSTOM GAME is for exactly. It allows you and your friends (or the strangers you gather round) to set personal limits and rules to which you all agree. You can play and have fun. If you want to EARN rewards, you take the same chances as the rest of us.

  • Sunbreaker7Sunbreaker7 Member Posts: 580

    I want balanced matchmaking, one in which I don't get paired with or against players whose rank/skill is way off from mine. I am rank 1 in all seasons both with survivor and Killer and I often get matched against beginners who get destroyed. You can imagine how boring the game can be for me at times when this happens. I don't want it to be normalized.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460
    edited June 2021

    A couple of things, I suspect I'm twice, perhaps even three times your age. If you want to call me kid, I'll take it as a compliment. Second, Dead by Daylight is already a WILDLY successful game with the setup it has NOW. The DEV know exactly what they are doing. More importantly, they know WHY they do the different things they do and are working, behind closed doors, to deal with unintended consequences and issues of every choice. You are the one asking for a change, and thus the ONUS is on you to demonstrate why it is required. So let me break this down for you in a way that you MIGHT understand.

    1. There is already an option for casual games; it is called Custom Game.
    2. You don't get to earn the same rewards as everyone else without taking the same risks and putting in the same work.
    3. Comparing DbD to other games is irrelevant because they are not setup like DbD in way shape or form. Comparing apples to oranges doesn't support your argument. It simply makes you seem ill-suited to make arguments.

    Again, why do you feel entitled to the same rewards, for taking less risk, than other people? And for the record, substituting the word "casual" in for "easy" may be all the rage these days, but we all know what you really mean so you might as well be direct. You want easier games and to reap the same rewards as people who have to earn them. It isn't going to happen. There isn't going to be a separate "Casual Mode" for you to earn free stuff because that would further delay and upset the Queues.

    More to the point, the term "casual" is ENTIRELY subjective. Nobody agrees on what it means. If a so-called "casual" queue were created, what is to stop people whose idea of casual is 10x more cutthroat than your idea of play? Wouldn't the foxes just go to the henhouse for easier prey? After all, you would make their games VERY casual. Do you see my point yet? Do you understand the irrelevancy of your argument. Without a specific, agreed upon set of terms and rules, there is no such thing as a casual game. All parties must be in agreement and know it is in force. The ONLY way that happens is a Custom Game. See how we went full circle?

  • edgarpoopedgarpoop Member Posts: 5,306

    But I think that's what people are getting at: it doesn't *have* to be that way. MMR isn't going to take care of one of the biggest core frustrations among the playerbase. Player A wants to try hard and player B wants to mess around. DbD is literally the only multiplayer game I can think of with only ranked competitive matchmaking and nothing else.

  • MoundshroudMoundshroud Member Posts: 4,460
    edited June 2021

    Your arguments aren't bad and you clearly can follow what I'm talking about. But I submit it does HAVE to be that way. There are only so many Players in the Queue, and they must fulfill the requirement of both roles. The DEV won't even separate SWF from Solo because they know the devastating impact it has on Queue times. They test it all the time; they just don't tell us when they are monkeying around with matchups. I don't blame them. The easiest fix for SWF would be for Team to be in its own Queue so they could unlock a 5th Perk for Killers who take them on, to offset the SWF 5th Perk (Comms). However, this would denude the available Players in both groups and make everyone slow and miserable. But wait... there is more...

    Let's say they do create a Casual Play Mode and a Competitive (the standard) Mode. How would that be defined? Would some Killers be outlawed in the Casual Queue? That doesn't see fair to the people who paid for them. Would some Perks be outlawed? Would some Builds be outlawed? I mean Offerings and Add-on(s) are a little easier to manage, but even that is kind of wonky. More to the point, most people define casual in this nebulous way. It simply means they don't want people coming at them giving 100%. It is, as I stated in another post, entirely subjective. What is to stop someone who gives 100% from going into the Casual Queue? How do you measure someone giving 80% as opposed to 100%. What if my 80% is equal to 200% of yours? I'm not making a joke; I'm deadly serious. Things are the way they are because they HAVE to be. Dead by Daylight isn't setup, as a 4v1, to work in casual mode.

  • T2KT2K Member Posts: 637

    But if you tryhard you most likely go up in mmr and get matches with other tryhards. And if you want to mess around your mmr will go down and you get matches with other players who mess around or are not that good. How does mmr not take care of it?

    If you mean player a and b in one swf together, that would be another topic.

    If you mean a as killer and b as survivor, mmr helps here too.

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