How do you counter Tinkerer?
No problem :)
I was watching an OTZ game where at least 3 of them had it and literally escaped as a result of it. But I genuinely feel those situations are rare and I would rather play against that than DS. Deadhard is well designed in my opinion and killers are designed to catch survivors, so often they need to use it not because they made a mistake, but to delay the inevitable. DS requires you to be useless for a minute and the people who run it have no issue figuring that out, rofl.
You and I are on the same page. I cannot stress enough how annoying SB is to go against. You can’t work on a gen in the killer’s face with DH, as efficiently as if you had SB because you are one sprint burst safe to get away.
The fact that you have to be injured to be able to use DH vs being able to use SB healthy or injured pretty much seals the deal for me as to how powerful SB is.
Then propose something instead of just wanting the perk to be removed..
If you swing and miss on a dead hard then you've been baited. If the survivor make it to a pallet but you break it immediately he didn't gain much distance (eg, Bubba, Blight, Demo etc.)and in those instance any other exhaustion perk would have buy the survivor the same time if not more.
Bubba completely bypass DH with his chainsaw and you can insta down on T&L with him. Deathsligner can easily bait the dead hard, not even hard. Demo with Shred, if you aim properly, will hit the survivor regardless. Good luck using Dead Hard vs a Spirit. Nurse can bait it too and at worst it take you two more blink. Nemesis & Executioner could care less that you make it to a window or pallet. A good Clown isn't bothered much either. Trickster & Huntress doesn't give a ######### either about Dead Hard, the best you can do vs Huntress is using the immunity. Doctor can just shock you if he know you have DH.
Jesus it's almost as if the vast majority of the killer can deal with Dead Hard without much issue provided you know them a little bit.
Did I say the others don't do that?
They all do it, but Dead Hard does it in a terrible, terrible way.
Head On, Smash Hit, and Adrenaline are balanced because you have to earn their effects (through a successful locker juke, a pallet outplay, or by winning outright with three perks).
Sprint Burst is problematic because it counters stealth killers too hard and all but negates initial positioning as a relevant factor. That said, it's so easy to bait out that it's not necessarily the end of the world for a lot of killers (Pig is gonna have an aneurism, but Blight scoffs at it).
Lithe and Balanced Landing give similar raw distance to SB, but don't provide benefits right from the start, so it's fine. Problematic, yes, but less so, and if the "hold W meta" is ever addressed these perks would indirectly be made 100% fine.
Dead Hard cannot be forcibly burned (you need to commit to a chase through its natural lifetime to get that far), doesn't require good positioning (just face a pallet/window and you're good), and isn't something you really need to earn. You get into a situation where you should go down, and then you just don't.
Aside from bugs, user error, and some dubious builds (anybody gonna run Mindbreaker to sometimes kinda counter a perk that some survivors might be running?) it has no weaknesses. Low risk, and the highest reward out of any perk in the game, effectively giving you a bonus health state. Now remember you can use this 3+ times a match and everyone can run it.
I dont see a suggestion to fix it at all, just a complaint. Like 97% of all threads complaining, its either just crying about something or theres a suggestion so lazy it qualifies for welfare.
What do you want to do about it? you change DH, you have to change No Mither. Because then trying to get David's adept would be just a trash achievement. I firmly believe you guys are complaining over the latest stats. Where was all this complaining when DS had a target on its back for the last 3 years, more than half the game's lifespan?
People call anything that they think is an unfair advantage, cheating. The forum is filled with this type of thread. Maybe partake in some critical thinking and hash out a suggestion that balances it. Because while I do NOT use exhaustion perks(unless it calls for it in a rift challenge), I fully see the use and point of Dead Hard. Granted, when I started you could actually use the perk properly and not just sit on the floor exhausted like a Labrador after playing in the park :\
The majority of the killer cast has some way to counter DH. Deathslinger can shoot you faster than you can react. Pyramid Head's shockwave is way longer than a DH. Demogorgon's shred is wayyyyy longer than a DH. Doctor can shut down any pallet/window you DH to. If there are multiple Hag traps around DH will do nothing. I can go on and on about how DH can easily be made useless.
And then there are the perks/specific add-ons that completely counter it. Huntress's add-on, Blood Echo, and Mindbreaker.
I listed all of these ways you can counter Dead Hard (and there's a lot more I didn't list) but it just seems like you don't want to do any of those and just ignore them. You want to get every free hit on someone with DH without actually doing any work.
But Dead Hard is the same, ffs. Go use Dead Hard in the middle of nowhere and see where that lead you. One add some time to a loop in particular, the other allow you to bring the killer 1 or 2 tiles away. Lithe require a window or dropped pallet nearby to be effective. Dead Hard require a window or pallet nearby while injured to be effective. How is that different?
When used properly Lithe, Sprint Burst & Balance Landing allow you get away from the killer without the need of a pallet, Dead Hard extend the usefulness of a loop. Dead Hard might force you a mind game on the killer's side but that's about it.
DH doesn't require set up, again set up requires a certain prerequisite to be met before activating it. This is activated on will, hence it doesn't require set up.
Dead hard secures the loop, SB still means you could be hit before reaching the vault.
The I frames are what makes it different. You gain distance and get I frames.
Dead Hard is important for a couple reasons other than just, extending chase or making the next loop.
It's one of the only ways to possibly escape the basement.
It allows players to make risky plays while injured with a chance to escape. For example, playing a Sabotage / Breakout build or generally trying to make save plays, flashlights, ect. Often times the "saves" don't pan out, bad timing or, the Killer is running carry perks and Breakout never pays off. So all you've really done is given the Killer another free chase after he just downed someone and, plays like this can throw the game. Without Dead Hard risky plastyles would be very punishing and they would be attempted even less. Driving the game into an even more Meta state as everyone switches to using Sprint Burst and we all just hold W.
i mean sure, as long as they fix the map designs
Make it deactivate after certain amount of uses. 2 maybe 3 times
Bruh not getting downed is literally like a 3rd health state or at the very least like styptic agent... what do you even mean.
Just because you lack the creativity of playing around tinkerer it does not mean there is nothing you can do. Knowing the Killer has tinkerer opens up MANY possibilities. For example: If you know the killer is a frequent checker after Tinkerer triggers, just leave the gen at 70-75% and hide. You will make the killer waste so much time, especially if he interrupted a chase because of it. You can also block the gen with repressed alliance to counter a tinkerer into pop. I'll admit its not a direct counter as in you can do something that the perks does nothing, but you can for sure turn it against the killer. If you are in a SWF you can also exactly know if you could just finish the gen or not.
There is literally NOTHING you can do against dead hard. No mindgames, no killer power can stop you from using it to be safe. There is no interactivity whatsoever, its just you knowing you will loose 20-30 seconds more (if you are lucky) of time. And this happens every time. Lets be nice and say DH extends a chase for 20 seconds on average in perfect use. Lets also even be nicer and say this happens maybe 2 or 3 times in a game, because maybe not all Survivors have it or just not many more situations happen were DH is useful like that. Thats at the very least 40-60 seconds of more chase time. There are 3 other survivors meaning you get 120-180 seconds of gen time for completely free and just because of one perk. Thats 2 gens done for free and i am not even beeing overly drastic with these numbers. Most killer perks are not even close to giving you that much time. No regression perk is even close to beeing that strong on average when in comes to time gain. Ruin beeing up the whole game on a killer with great pressure MIGHT be able to, but ruin beeing up the whole game is rare. Its not extreme rare but it is rare. Survivors extending chases with DH is not. Its extremely common.
You mean that perk that can be removed before it ever procs? With now like 3 different perks, as well as maps, to assist with it's removal?
But hey, why run one of those perks when you could just run Dead Hard, right?
I mean quite frankly, I don’t care about DH. I almost always use balanced. I just think it’s ludicrous that a perk that leaves you exhausted on the floor 30% of the time can never be truly the strongest in the game.
Dead Hard is fine. It's a fair perk, that gains distance much like other exhaustion perks. It's just as situational as the rest EXCEPT for Sprint Burst, which can be used whenever if you know how to use it properly. Yes, there are more situations where DH can be used, but there's plenty of situations where DH won't buy nearly as much time as a decent Lithe or Balanced Landing. That's ignoring the times you end up exhausted on the ground. People always say it's skill-less, but a well timed dead hard is far more useful than a poorly timed one. Just see all the times people say "nice dead hard" sarcastically. DH won't do nearly as much damage in a dead zone as... you guessed it, Sprint Burst, which doesn't care about your dead zone.
Dead Hard - an exhaustion perk that gives you free distance and iframes for...what? What did you do to earn it exactly? Literally nothing. In fact, you might even call it a reward for failure.
Ruin and Tinkerer? Fair enough, which is why I don't use the two together (I actually never use ruin or any hex perk, not a fan of them), but even THOSE have to have their value earned from them more than dead hard does.
Pop? You quite literally have to earn even the chance to use it. By hitting a survivor twice and hooking them. No comparison here.
NOED? You could make an argument for this, but NOED is a second chance. Killers don't have a lot of unearned second chances. NOED might be the only one. The entire survivor meta is unearned second chances aside from things like Smash Hit and Deliverance. NOED has a huge downside in that it can disappear before it ever gets any use, though.
If we're going to start comparing perks on either side, it's not going to go well for you.
At the end of the day, it may be an inconvenient truth, and survivors fear of not actually being as good as they think they are plays a huge rule here, but things like Dead Hard, and most exhaustion perks in general, are unhealthy for the game in the same way Bloodlust is (which needs to go as well, btw). Exhaustion perks are quite literally survivor slowdowns. But with even less earning requirement.
It can be frustrating yes, i'll admit that! Fair enough! But i am still pretty sure that on average people are able to use it 2-3 times in a match for extending chases. All exhaustion perks do of course. And maybe DH is not even the best one when it comes to all the numbers across the board. But it is the one with the least interactivity. If a survivor sprint bursts to a loop, they will extend the chase for a similar manner. But at the very least i know i can get them with mind games, hiding red stain , good play etc. I might not and still loose. But at least i know i have a chance.
And we are not even talking about all the other scenarios: DH is also a free escape once gates are opened. No other exhaustion perk can do that. You can avoid traps, ranged attacks etc. No other exhaustion perk can do that.
If you get hit with Sprint Burst ready or hit before a window while using Lithe you're bad at using them, what make you think those player will be better with Dead Hard.
And again Dead Hard does require to be in a loop with a pallet or window and the later it is in the game the less pallet there is. Also if the killer use a perk against loop like Bamboozle or is a killer that give no ######### about pallet or window (there are plenty) Dead Hard will give you less time than Lithe or Sprint burst.
I am a fan of an idea someone else proposed where dead hard is a boost to speed when going healthy -> injured, the numbers would probably have to be fiddled with some to make sure it isn't just a better sprint burst. I'm also a fan of removing the dash, extending the i-frames, and mini-stuns the killer if they swing into you during dead hard. However the latter would need to be done with fixing the networking problems that cause exhausted on ground. I'm not a fan of ideas like blanket nerfing it or making it so you can't interact with pallets/windows after dead harding as they would just throw it into the trash perk pile. We already have enough garbage perks on both sides, I don't think we need to add more.
You really do not want to admit it, do you? Getting the killer to waste time breaking a pallet or using their power is already enough. Lithe and Balanced are predictable and will only work one time. Whenever I get to a window or a pallet I can easily extend the chase for at least 20 seconds. Dh covers up my mistakes when I run into a deadzone or got too greedy at a loop. It is literally a crutch perk
Sprint burst is my go to but at least requires some kind of strategy to use at at full potential.
You must be a top tier killer if you can apparently predict and outplay dh since most killers I face are not able to.
Did the killer catch you in the open by his own game knowledge ? Or maybe by several of the killer wallhack perks or add ons that were introduced into the game ?
Chili, Nurses calling, Mirror Myers naming just a few.....
And getting away with Sprint Burst, Lithe or Balance Landing without having to drop a pallet doesn't make the killer waste time? You're dishonest with your reply, even better you don't even need to drop a pallet as early with those exhaustion perk.
It's more of a passive counter than direct (like hiding in a locker to counter bbq) but survivors working on different gens. Can't chase 4 different survivors at the same time on multiple tinkerer notifications if you are spread out. You can't counter the undetectable status though.
I'm confused how it offers a free escape. While you are trying to down them in the exit gate?
IME survivors wait till the last second to dead hard into the exit zone anyways, and at that point even if you knocked em down while running, they are probably in that zone where they escape (unless you are playing slinger and reel em in).
Anyways, my 2 cents is as someone who plays killer/survivor 60/40, dead hard is a non issue imo. If someone is looping you for x amount of gens, and they truly use dead hard for distance, the best play is truly just leave the chase patrol the gens and go after other survivors. If they are in a dead zone, bait it out. DH plays to dodge attacks are so predictable - Otz, tofu, etc do it all the time. But seriously - choose your battles. You are putting no pressure at all if you chase one survivor for a while and you make the survivor waste their dead hard and get exhausted and have to recover.
Huntress hatchets fully charged could hit you when you use SB.
Deathslinger could predict you when using SB.
Both of these are possible with good killers.
However, dead hard would make the hatchet go through and the gun bounce of you).
The last point we agree on, but that's still not set up. Again no specific requirement is needed to activate it.
Well then, we better nerf pallets and window vaults that cause killers to whiff an attack. Oh and survivors that wait till the last moment to use Sprint Burst, that cause killers to whiff. Whiffing an attack as killer is not a 3rd health state bruh.