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You can't increase gen speeds or fix gen rushing without also fixing camping and tunneling vice-vers

dspaceman20dspaceman20 Member Posts: 3,443
edited November 2021 in General Discussions

Say what you want about these strategies but they are direct opposite of each others and are used as a way to help gain momentum to their side. These strategies counter each other. Because they are basically two side of the same coin. together that they even help perpetuate an unfun cycle (Ie killers tunnel and camp so survivor feel they need to gen rush and then killers need to continue camping and tunneling because of said gen rushing and etc etc)

I see people suggest that they should increase gen speeds or add second objectives to prevent gen rushing but again because these two strategies counter each other fixing one without the other would create a massive imbalance for one side. For example say that gen rushing was made impossible for the survivors to do. The killer basically have no repercussions for camping and tunneling and can easily implore on the the two strategies to take a survivor out of the game and get massive pressure that makes coming back nearly important. Similarly if camping and tunneling is solved but gen rushing is still a thing the killer would not be able to gain any momentum to help counter the gen rush thus making the game unbalanced towards the survivor side.

Furthermore the issues of prevalent meta perks like DS and BT and ruin undying is only made more annoying because of gen rushing and camping and tunneling. Since these perks are used to counter these strategies. They are ultimately band aid fixes to the problem and could easily be dealt with if BOTH of these strategies are handled.

It's an unfortunate truth but because of this we can't make any sorta change to either unfun strategy without dealing with both.

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Comments

  • RainehDazeRainehDaze Member Posts: 1,293

    Also, "you can't do this one thing without doing this other thing" only holds if you assume that there's an equilibrium at the moment.

    The part where multiple gens can already be completed and the killer gets one chase and hook is a clear indication that this isn't balanced.

  • dspaceman20dspaceman20 Member Posts: 3,443

    Yes I agree gen speeds isn't the issue but people continue assert that when they suggest to Increase gen speeds

    Also tunneling is most definitely a thing. The fact that the killer are supposed to kill survivors is irrelevant. Otherwise that's like saying gen rushing isn't a thing because the survivors have to do gens as quickly as possible to win

  • GrayEyesGrayEyes Member Posts: 379

    Fine I'll say it I'll be the elephant in the room tunneling and gen rushing both aren't aren't thing

    Think about it for a second in what other game are you called out and talked down on for completing your objective as quickly as possible? The answer is none

    Both aren't a thing but the maps do need to be fixed there ######### massive

  • RainehDazeRainehDaze Member Posts: 1,293
    edited November 2021

    "Tunneling is a thing that is a problem" is a lopsided assessment. The notion of taking someone out first being fixable is also pretty much impossible, since if you force the killer to spread hooks out, then the person who isn't hooked just has to play hide and seek whilst the rest of the team completes objectives untouched (and nullifying all obsession-based mechanics as a secondary casualty).

    Genrushing as a strategy being a problem is also a lopsided assessment. "Do gens as fast as possible and ignore bones as irrelevant" is fine.

    But the balance where multiple gens can pop despite optimal play from the killer, and all gens go before anyone could even be tunnelled out, is a balance problem. One side having almost no chance of winning without piling up enough mistakes on the other side is not good.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,397
    edited November 2021

    Genrushing isn't simply a strategy. Survivors are supposed to do gens before they can be killed.

    'Genrushing' refers to bringing stuff like multiple PTS and BNP with fancy toolboxes and slamming out gens so fast that the killer cannot realistically do anything. 'Rush' infers a gimmicky, cheesy play that requires substantially less effort to execute than it does to counter, as per 'rushing' in RTS games.

    'Tunneling' is just killers playing the game properly. If you wanted to make it so survivors were immune to being hooked unless you hook the other 3 survivors or something before, or whatever you are suggesting, you'd have to rebalance the game from the ground up and approximately triple killer power.

  • NickeleyeNickeleye Member Posts: 278

    Tunneling and Gen rushing are things. Smart things in fact. ..It's not about Gen speed. Map size and stupid rng combos are the real killers.

  • DemonDaddyDemonDaddy Member Posts: 3,292

    Tunneling is not an issue that needs correction. It's the survivor's responsibility to avoid the killer and escape chases, if your caught the killer is not obligated to let you make the match more difficult by facilitating a safe getaway.

  • mrmain21mrmain21 Member Posts: 48

    One could say that the killers objective is to protect the generators to ensure the exit gates never get powered. So therefore quick gens don't need to be solved?

    I agree with OP in many games, especially tough ones, tunneling often will grant 2 kills. Camping isn't quite as effective, but if the team is being efficient and trying to finish a gen first, the killer coming back to interrupt a save and force struggle to then just kill them off hook is so incredibly effective and works on strong teams. So during that time the killer chased someone off a generator and probably took a health state from them to then leave chase and force 2nd, then kill.

    You can go to any stream and see this happen all day, because it is so effective even against super strong players. If you make it harder to do the gens then even strong teams will be 3kd or even 4kd consistently against an equally skilled killer.

    So I do agree with op and I also agree with others in rebalancing maps, some more filler pallets and less pallet gyms or nerfing HOP loops.

  • PredatedPredated Member Posts: 2,458

    It's literally a fix, not a buff. This is one of the only times that a mechanic has literally been fixed, yet people claim it's a buff. Yet when window blockers were added, people call it a fix, even though it was objectively a nerf.

    And yeah, Tunneling is obviously a thing. If a survivor gained 8k BP because they have been chased from the start of the match untill the end of the match, they were tunneled. Your objective as a killer is to kill all survivors. Focusing on only 1/4th of your objective, is literally tunneling.

    And while I agree that in the normal flow of the game, having 1 survivor dead at 2 gens is often a really good step to kill at least 3 survivors, that is ignoring the fact that when all gens are finished, the game isnt over. There still is quite a large portion of the game remaining. I cant tell you how often I have won the game with 4 survivors left and 0 gens remaining without even bringing NOED. I cant tell you how many games I have lost even though 1 survivor died with 3 gens remaining.

    But there is 1 big problem: you're assuming you deserve to win. You dont. If you are playing against players of your own caliber, you should lose 50% of the game. And that isnt even applying the fact that with MMR, a 1k could be considered a win. If you're facing 3 potatoes with 700 ELO, and 1 survivor with 1900 ELO while you are 1000 ELO, then you kill the survivor with 1900 ELO, you gain MMR even though you only killed 1 survivor.

    You have a personal definition of a win, while that definition of a win is in itself entitlement. If I play Treasurekeeper Bubba, I win as long as the item remains in the game. I'd lose if the item leaves the game. Survivors are going to be bored as heck and wouldnt really consider it a win, even though by your own definition, you won.

    It doesnt even really matter if the majority of the community agrees with you, it's not something that is set in stone. If you consider an increase in MMR to be a win, depending on the players in the match, that win condition could be a 1k or a 3k. If you consider the pipping system to be a win, a 0k could be a win. If you consider having the most BP in the match to be a win, a 4k could be a loss.

    Since MMR is the only way to face better or worse opponents, meaning it's the closest thing we have to a win/lose condition, dying as a survivor means a loss, even if 3 teammates escape, and gaining MMR counts as a win, even if 3 survivors escape. Meaning any specific win condition you have in mind, is an entitlement.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,397

    'Quick gens' in isolation? Not a problem. You should be countering.

    SWFs running fancy toolboxes and popping 2 gens within 30 seconds of a match starting? Problem. There isn't any real way to counter that.

    Killers making sure a survivor dies ASAP by not constantly dropping chase with someone that you've already hooked? Not a problem. Play better.

    Killers facecamping with Insidious Bubba on the first hook? Problem. There isn't any real way to counter that.

    I watch quite a lot of high MMR streams. Killers win and loose. DbD is a snowbally game by nature.

    Rule of 3: if a survivor isn't dead by the time 3 gens are done, you're almost certainly going to get 0-1k max unless you brought NOED or survivors make a blunder. If a survivor is dead, you should get a 3-4k unless you make a blunder.

    Again, what you are describing as 'tunneling' is the killer's only realistic way to win in many matches. If you were able to convince the devs to make killers a bit less of an uphill battle against teams that know what they are doing, then - sure. We can talk about some more 'anti tunneling' perks. Until then...Rule of 3.

  • MylaMyla Member Posts: 1,551

    If those problems magically go away it won't stop people from being camping or tunneling. The game is built in a way that allows it. Game could be perfectly balanced and a someone can just wake up on the wrong side of the bed and decided "Hmmm I want to be a giant D today"

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,397

    Sometimes a 'fix' amounts to a buff.

    Dead Hard was a meta (arguably the meta) perk with all it's former quirks.

    Now, not only is it effectively a zero risk third health state on a short cooldown, but constantly feeds killers fake hits and eats powers, which cannot be fixed due to it being a validation issue.

    Hence: buff.

    If a bug is unfixable, then it needs to be treated as a feature.

    And no, my goal is to kill all the survivors before the gates are done. Removing one survivor from the equation is the easiest route to this goal quite frequently, ergo: optimal play, ergo: meta.

    Now, this can be done in a cheesy manner (tunneling off hook) or how I do it which is simply prioritizing them in chase. I'm not sure what you expect killers to do - do you want them to just avoid chasing someone because they were recently unhooked? Prioritize other survivors? No.

    I play to win and to have fun. If I go easy on people, I get teabagged all the way to the exit gates and told to uninstall in postgame. I'm going to take control of the game as firmly and as soon as I can, then I might decide to be nice. Which is the only time I've ever been thanked by survivors.

    And don't strawman. I don't believe I 'deserve' to win. But that doesn't mean I'm going to just avoid chasing people and let the other side win either, any more than a survivor is going to give me a pity hook when they 4-out me.

    A win is a 3k or more. A loss is a 1k or less. A 2k (which almost never happens) is a draw. That is both my definition of a win, and the commonly accepted definition of a win. And thus, that is going to be my goal ingame. Plus, you won't pip past Iri 3 without getting Ruthless at least, which on a lot of killers is nearly impossible to do without a 3k.

    I think we have very different definitions of 'entitlement'. But I will say that if you're telling someone how to play the game outside of cheating or being a jerk, then it's not them with an entitlement issue...

    BHVR have made it clear that they consider facecamping a problem and are working on a mechanical change to discourage it.

    They've also made it clear that proxy camping and tunneling are perfectly acceptable.

  • MylaMyla Member Posts: 1,551

    Not the point. Point is people are acting as if fixing Gen times or problems in the game would suddenly magically woosh camping and tunneling away. That'll never happen.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,397

    I think that it would definitely help.

    Again, speeds aren't the issue. Maps still having infinites, perks like CoH which can counter an entire killer kit by itself (Wraith), Dead Hard, SWF stompcomps, over half the killer roster needing serious buffs/reworks and the sheer speed at which gens can be done with certain perk/addon combinations is the issue.

    You aren't going to make tunneling go away, because - again - that seems to just be optimal play as a killer.

    Camping is usually about as much fun for the killer as it is for the survivors, and they take a penalty for it. I think a lot of killers camp because they are frustrated and sometimes, after several bad matches in a row, it seems to be the only way to actually feel like you stand a chance of getting a kill. There's a reason you see more camping Bubbas and Pigs than you do camping Nurses or Spirits.

    Mark my words. Make it less frustrating to play killer. You'll see a lot less facecamping.

  • Gamedozer7Gamedozer7 Member Posts: 1,848

    Omg someone that understands the actual meaning of gen rush.

  • MylaMyla Member Posts: 1,551

    I didn't list the other issues and focused on speed because I'm too lazy to list problems with the game that has been said all over and over again. As I said game could be perfectly balanced and it still won't fix those stuff.

    Would it make less seen? Obviously but again won't stop people from being wanting to do it for the funny.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,397

    Shrug. Anymore than it would stop survivors being flicky flicky with flashlights and giving photosensitive players issues.

    I'm saying that I think the majority of playstyles that survivors find objectionable are a product of killers feeling like it's the only way to win.

    Honestly, it's like 'tunneling'. It's basically used as a catch all term for 'I lost and I'm unhappy about it'.

    Camping the hook and immediately downing the survivor after the unhook is vanishingly rare, and you have several perks to negate this.

    Genrushing...actual genrushing doesn't really have a counter unless you are playing a very specific killer/build. Which is why you see endless streams of Nurse and Blight at high MMRs.

  • Gamedozer7Gamedozer7 Member Posts: 1,848

    Exactly its use for when gen go fast thats not gen rush BnP and PTS make gens move so fast its almost impossible to build any pressure as a killer. I wouldn't even call it true gen rush either as I was there at the hight of SC and old BnP meta. 2 minutes 5 gens gg.

    I just find camping boring i can't stand there and wait I can't do it in Fps either

  • Johnny_XManJohnny_XMan Member Posts: 5,474

    Agreed through and through.

    Imagine the worst possible slow down build on a Camping killer and gens at a slower speed than they are now. I don’t know how anyone would think that is fair.

  • Gen speeds are definitely a problem, but for as long as Huntress and Nurse remain very strong killers the gen speeds will not get changed I'm sure...

    Guess we'll just have to buff every other killer in the game

  • dspaceman20dspaceman20 Member Posts: 3,443

    Ok can I ask. What would happen if gen speeds was slower but tunneling and camping wasn't touched or vice versa?

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,397

    'What-iffing' isn't usually a productive line of reasoning, especially when two things are almost certainly connected to each other to some degree.

    'Gen speeds' as a whole don't need to be touched. Certain addons, perks, loops and the like are what needs to be touched, and a part of that is going to have to involve reworking and buffing a lot of killers.

    Once that is done, if 'camping' is still a problem - you can revisit the issue.

    Again, I'm not sure what you even mean by 'tunneling'. I get accused of 'tunneling' if I hook the same person twice in the same match or interrupt someone healing. It appears to be a nothing-term that nobody can really agree on what constitutes it.

  • dspaceman20dspaceman20 Member Posts: 3,443

    What ifs are good to help us determine what's best for things not just I this game but I other things I life. It allows us to wonder about the worst case scenario that is possible to happen. And hopefully avoid that scenario if possible.

    I agree gen speeds are fine and other things instead needs to be touched in order for things to be balanced. I also think tunneling is fine. They both are nessacary to balance each other out.

    And I think we have as a community come up with an acceptable definition of tunneling, which is also supported by the change to DS. Tunneling is when you target a survivor that was unhooked even when there are others to target.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,397
    edited November 2021

    If you don't do something because of the worst case scenario, then you end up doing nothing.

    And no, again - what you are describing proves my exact point. It's ridiculously broad. For example, if I play Hag - I'll bop whoever triggers a trap. I'm not going to stop and check whether it's someone I already hooked.

    If I find 3 survivors healing, I'm chasing the one furthest from safety.

    If it's a choice between chasing 1 person with 2 hooks and 1 person with 0 hooks, unless I'm already in control of the game I'm chasing the 2-hooker. It just doesn't make tactical sense not to.

    These are all things that happen incidentally during a game and make sense. There is play and counterplay. A risk (DS, BT etc.) and a reward.

    Facecamping Indisious Bubbas? Yeah, now that's a problem because there isn't really any reasonable counterplay.

    There is tons of counterplay to tunneling.

  • RainehDazeRainehDaze Member Posts: 1,293

    Or: maybe we shouldn't be trying to balance out a tactical gameplay decision in the same breath as adjusting how fast a task completes.

    They're only indirectly linked; trying to solve both at once won't get anywhere.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 5,397

    Then we fix the balance and see what happens to the meta, surely?

    Trying to artificially change the meta by further hampering killers...I don't think that's a good idea.

  • dspaceman20dspaceman20 Member Posts: 3,443

    I agree. Your coming at me as if I'm saying that tunneling is a bad thing and a tactic that shouldn't be used. I'm not saying that. Yes it's ridiculous to not use the tactics when it's best too. But that doesn't mean it's not tunneling. If your playing hag and the survivor triggers your trap happen to be the one recently unhooked and you out them back on the hook then you tunneled the person. That's not a bad thing. It doesn't matter the situation that leads to the recently unhooked becoming hooked again. It's still tunneling. Just call it what it is and be done with it.

  • MigrantTheGreatMigrantTheGreat Member Posts: 1,258

    Your trying to address 2 different things that don't even correlate.

    Gen speeds are a core issue while camping and tunneling is a playstyle.

    Camping and Tunneling should take a team effort to prevent but the community is more focused on the 1v1 and not the 1v4.

    Gen speeds aren't the problem. The problem essentially lies in.

    1. Survivors not having enough obj prior to gens

    2. Map sizes

    3. Poor killers designs

  • RainehDazeRainehDaze Member Posts: 1,293

    I was agreeing with you, it was just meant to be another way of phrasing the problem: you can't try and address tunnelling and gen rushing at the same time, because they're completely separate components of gameplay and problems for completely different reasons (where tunnelling is even a problem--which often seems to be "it's not fun" rather than "it's too strong").

This discussion has been closed.