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Brainstorming SWF vs SOLO balancing ideas

AnotherRandyAnotherRandy Member Posts: 274
edited November 2018 in General Discussions
This thread should collect all ideas you guys have to close the gap between swf and solo cuz I think this the one and only way to balance this game.

PLEASE DONT DISCUSS HERE!

Insert only your ideas here and discuss specific ideas separately to keep it clean here, otherwise this is going to be a mess. 

(I hope the mods here can help to keep it clean here and maybe stick it to the top)
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Comments

  • AnotherRandyAnotherRandy Member Posts: 274
    edited November 2018
    I start with:
    1) Kindred basekit (whatelse)
    2) show everyone that the obsession is affected by rancor (having red claws around the name or showing everyone the rancor survivor location after every gen like the killer)
  • steezo_desteezo_de Member Posts: 921
    edited November 2018

    I don't think you have to do much. Built in Kindred sounds good, then take away the ability to see killer perks when spectating. Those alone should be a good start to test, then add if necessary.. Maybe show perk loadouts of the other survivors at the start of the match?

  • Tzeentchling9Tzeentchling9 Member Posts: 1,796
    Built in Kindred, Bond, Empathy, Object of Obsession+Sole Survivor, Alert, Small Game, Detective's Hunch, Windows of Opportunity, Wake Up, and Open Handed is a good start to getting Solo Survivors up to the same power level as SWF.
  • Speshul_KittenSpeshul_Kitten Member Posts: 1,861
    You’d have to really add a lot of indicators that solo players could understand without actual verbal communication. Such as, generator auras being shown to percentage of completion (the brighter the color the more complete), constant location ques of the Killer, totem auras showing when a survivor passes by, etc.
    That’s the only way solo survivors would be on par with SWF. 
    It also clearly shows how overpowered SWF are.
  • lindechenelindechene Member Posts: 69
    edited November 2018

    My subjective impression is that the ability of SWF to communicate enables them to perform certain actions in situations where solo players would simply run away or hide.

    From my point of view the solution is not to add aura reading abilities for everyone.
    The game should at least try to remain as scary and unpredictable as possible.

    Instead my suggestion is to give all killers more advanced moves like a "grab" and cooldown based "360" attack that offer more options to deal with situations where SWF teams run towards or around the killer instead away.

    PLEASE DONT DISCUSS HERE!

    For comments on this idea please visit the separate thread:

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/29519/additional-advanced-attacks-for-all-killers-grab-360-spin


  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 11,495
    Just add in game voice com.
    Remove all the indicators that have been added during the last year.

    That's it.
  • se05239se05239 Member Posts: 3,919

    @Tsulan said:
    Just add in game voice com.
    Remove all the indicators that have been added during the last year.

    That's it.

    In-game voip will just turn DbD to F13 and that was a horrifyingly ######### experience, especially for the guy who played the killer.

    I personally think that any buff to solo will also buff SWF, because of how it works. Without third party software to chat with each-other, a SWF is basically just four random survivors in a group in terms of power. Adding that third party advantage will make the squad's power spike to greater heights, boosted further with the solo survivor buffs.

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 10,200

    Introduce ingame voice comm for everyone.
    Balance the game around voice comms.

    Even then SWF sitll has a really high advantage that they can choose their premades, other games consider this advantage so big that they even have separate ranked queues for solo / premade players.

  • M2FreamM2Fream Member Posts: 288
    Remove SWF fron public matches
    Give public matches a proximity based voice chat (8 - 12m)
    Give base kindred
    Give base empath (opposite of empathy: when injured see healthy survivors)

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 3,980

    @Tzeentchling9 said:
    Built in Kindred, Bond, Empathy, Object of Obsession+Sole Survivor, Alert, Small Game, Detective's Hunch, Windows of Opportunity, Wake Up, and Open Handed is a good start to getting Solo Survivors up to the same power level as SWF.

    That seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? I agree with the first three, Kindred, Bond and Empathy, the rest are way too much.
    Honestly Kindred is the main advantage swf survivors have, Knowing what other survivors are doing while someone is hooked is such a help.

  • Tzeentchling9Tzeentchling9 Member Posts: 1,796
    ad19970 said:

    @Tzeentchling9 said:
    Built in Kindred, Bond, Empathy, Object of Obsession+Sole Survivor, Alert, Small Game, Detective's Hunch, Windows of Opportunity, Wake Up, and Open Handed is a good start to getting Solo Survivors up to the same power level as SWF.

    That seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? I agree with the first three, Kindred, Bond and Empathy, the rest are way too much.
    Honestly Kindred is the main advantage swf survivors have, Knowing what other survivors are doing while someone is hooked is such a help.

    Sure, if you ignore SWF telling each other where the killer is, what gens they are working on, where all the totems are, what pallets have been used, and which doors are opening. To name but a few.
  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 3,980

    @Tzeentchling9 said:
    ad19970 said:

    @Tzeentchling9 said:

    Built in Kindred, Bond, Empathy, Object of Obsession+Sole Survivor, Alert, Small Game, Detective's Hunch, Windows of Opportunity, Wake Up, and Open Handed is a good start to getting Solo Survivors up to the same power level as SWF.

    That seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? I agree with the first three, Kindred, Bond and Empathy, the rest are way too much.

    Honestly Kindred is the main advantage swf survivors have, Knowing what other survivors are doing while someone is hooked is such a help.

    Sure, if you ignore SWF telling each other where the killer is, what gens they are working on, where all the totems are, what pallets have been used, and which doors are opening. To name but a few.

    Not quite the same though. Small game for example reveals totems in front of you no matter if a survivor has found that totem already or not. At least with swf one of them has to find the totem first. Also, I don't think their communication comes even close of being able to see the killer's aura everytime you look in his direction. That just isn't the case. And sole survivor? How do swf survivors have the advantage that sole survivor gives you?
    I also doubt their communication is so good that they can tell each other exactly where pallets have been broken and where not. Especially with maps not having so many unique locations. That's a bit extreme.

  • DragonredkingDragonredking Member Posts: 874

    How about they just put vocal chat in the game so that you don't need to had nonsense like making perks part of the basekit?

  • AnotherRandyAnotherRandy Member Posts: 274
    Seems like to many people are to stupid and not capable of following simple rules I set for this thread. "No discussion"  and people discuss like no tomorrow. No wonder why we never can help balance this game. What a community..
  • Rebel_RavenRebel_Raven Member Posts: 1,776
    As much as I hate the idea of it, the best option is either:
    1: basically make all aura reading perks base kit

    2: full blown, unrestricted voice chat since anyone that wants that will just go third party. Anything less will probably just make people go third party. 

    And doing either of that will require extreme changes to the power of killers, and it will have to be simultaneously done, or close to it. If not, I'm sure it will do massive harm to the killer population until balance is restored. Or the game will just up and die. 
  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 10,200

    @ad19970 said:

    @Tzeentchling9 said:
    Built in Kindred, Bond, Empathy, Object of Obsession+Sole Survivor, Alert, Small Game, Detective's Hunch, Windows of Opportunity, Wake Up, and Open Handed is a good start to getting Solo Survivors up to the same power level as SWF.

    That seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? I agree with the first three, Kindred, Bond and Empathy, the rest are way too much.
    Honestly Kindred is the main advantage swf survivors have, Knowing what other survivors are doing while someone is hooked is such a help.

    It sounds extreme, but think about it. if a single survivor has the aura of the killer, then the whole team has the knowledge in a SWF. There is a reason why killers complain about it so much :wink:

  • redsopine1redsopine1 Member Posts: 1,437
    First of I apologize in advanced I have bad grammar and this is tricky but I would say have unbreakable as a built in perk and to clarify why I say this I because often solo's are left to die as a 2-3 man team prioritizes there friends over a nearly full solo that just needs to be picked up before they can move and heal but they can bleed out because there ignored and simply have one of each character in a match and have only one obsession perk per character and have them active only on the obsession so no 4man teams with decisive or stuff anyone else want to add a few things to this like what perks should be one person only add below or make a thread and tag me in it
  • CarpemortumCarpemortum Member Posts: 4,511
    Oh oh I got it. Send your randos chat invites in the pre game lobby. Boom done thread over.
  • CornChipCornChip Member Posts: 540
    edited November 2018
    Buff solo survivors- Make kindred or bond base.. Probably kindred.
    Add walkie talkie items to the game that add push to talk.

    Nerf SWF- add a gen repair speed penalty to each player in a party of like 4% per person stackable to 16% (numbers to be tested by devs).

    Nerf nurse. 

    That's my 2 cents :) 
  • RepliCantRepliCant Member Posts: 1,436
    edited November 2018

    Since SWF vs Solo balance is the topic of discussion here, I hope you don't mind this lengthy post.

    We need to establish the difference between a SWF game vs. a Solo Queue game.

    There's also SWF, Solo, but SWF with Comms.

    SWF has the advantage of:

    • Medium Coordination
    • Successful Altruism
    • High Preparation - Perks, items, offerings, (sometimes "assigned roles")
    • Potential in powerful combinations to enhance the group as a whole (Stacking of Leader, Bond, Up the Ante, etc. All 4 ultra rare items, or purple. So on)

    SWF with Comms have the extra advantages of:

    • High knowledge and high coordination. (Who's in a chase? Who's on a gen? Who's going for the hook? Camping? Killer location? Where the Killer is going? - This can be acquired through comms and allow for excellent setup and coordination.)
    • Which literally is the thing that puts them onto the level of power they're in. Lack of knowledge is traded for agility in this game. When you have both, well.. we all know.

    Solo Queue:

    • Low Coordination - Perks exist to higher coordination or Solo Survivor survival
    • Low knowldge
    • Allies undependable
    • Prediction is key - is someone going for the hook? Should I stay on this gen then? Is the Killer coming here or is the Killer camping? - This can only be acquired through prediction or self-discovery, or in help from a perk. (1 slot = 1 buffs(s)/1 piece(s) of information/1 advantage(s) usually)

    Which....SWF with Comms ends up breaking the game to a degree. With all the supports Solo Queue games needs, bring Survivors to being more powerful onto the scale.

    The problem is: We can't ban comms, there's no way to enforcing it. Friends are gonna talk to each other one way or another, it's impossible to track. Which ends up really sucking because if we buff Solo to SWF level, then buff Killers, the atmosphere of a solo game will be ruined and could shift how you perceive the game. I mean, when I play with SWF I don't enjoy it. I enjoy the Solo feeling of either doing ######### all and all for me, or all for us and having a save build or a gen build, games where I have to predict, and sometimes people die on the first hook because we didn't know who went for them and in the end nobody did. Variation is important and if we give Solo the coordination SWF has it may just shift the environment completely. Just IMO

    When you picture Killers being on one end of a Justice Scale, and Survivors on the other one, ultimately Survivors have the upperhand.

    But, what if we put the scale to Killer vs. Solo Queue only games, do Survivors have that big of an upperhand?

    Maybe too many pallets, but without them, Solo games tend to be a wild variation in 4ks, 3ks, 2ks, 1ks, and 0ks. Short or long, where as SWF tend to have common patterns Solo Queues do not.

    I don't know what to think guys. SWF is overpowered and you'd be damned to think otherwise but what are some actual real ways to balance it? Kindred II is a good step forward, but like... it'd ruin those solo times of not knowing. Guess I'm a sucker for mystery.

    Either separate matches of Solo Queues and SWF, or give Solo a series of buffs along of a series of buffs to Killers, or nerf us Survivors to the ground. Or nothing. Maybe idk what I'm talkin bout'

  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 11,495
    se05239 said:

    @Tsulan said:
    Just add in game voice com.
    Remove all the indicators that have been added during the last year.

    That's it.

    In-game voip will just turn DbD to F13 and that was a horrifyingly ######### experience, especially for the guy who played the killer.

    I personally think that any buff to solo will also buff SWF, because of how it works. Without third party software to chat with each-other, a SWF is basically just four random survivors in a group in terms of power. Adding that third party advantage will make the squad's power spike to greater heights, boosted further with the solo survivor buffs.

    Just voice chat for the survivors. Killer can't hear them. Then balance around that. 

    Devs are trying to balance op SWF by giving solo players more and more information. 
    A year ago I had to pay attention while playing. Now I just look at the screen while playing with 1 hand, watching my phone and I still get all the information. 

    Way to easy. 
  • Wolf74Wolf74 Member Posts: 2,959
    edited November 2018

    Solo survivor should just use their brain.
    Following some simpler rules will bring them on the same level as SWF.
    1. Use Self Care.
    2. Use an exhaustion perk (SB, DH or BL)
    3. Spread out, do different gens.
    4. Every survivor has to cleanse at least ONE (dull) totem.
    5. If you get chased, try to lose the killer.
    6. If you can't lose the killer, waste his time.
    7. If your outside a chase, do gens or heal.
    8. Only do safe unhooks and never try to combat a camper
    .:edit:.
    9. If you are on the hook and get camped, flap your arms

    Post edited by Wolf74 on
  • DreamnomadDreamnomad Member Posts: 2,847

    @se05239 said:

    In-game voip will just turn DbD to F13 and that was a horrifyingly ######### experience, especially for the guy who played the killer.

    The killer wouldn't be able to hear the voice comms obviously.

  • CarpemortumCarpemortum Member Posts: 4,511
    edited November 2018
    Wolf74 said: 

    Solo survivor should just use their brain.
    Following some simpler rules will bring them on the same level as SWF.
    1. Use Self Care.
    2. Use an exhaustion perk (SB, DH or BL)
    3. Spread out, do different gens.
    4. Every survivor has to cleanse at least ONE (dull) totem.
    5. If you get chased, try to lose the killer.
    6. If you can't lose the killer, waste his time.
    7. If your outside a chase, do gens or heal.
    8. Only do safe unhooks and never try to combat a camper

    6, 7, 8 are by far the most important ones people need to remember. 

    "I got caught on second hook ima just give up".
    No, buy your teammates some time, as youd want them to do for you. Hell, even running into a far corner to increase his time/distance to a hook helps.

    "I wanna follow for the unhook/troll/chase handoff".
    No, know where they are, but unless you're rushing for a flashlight save, it's just giving him/her another free target and reason to camp the hook.

    "Gotta unhook them asap/get those WGLF stacks".
    No, stay back count to 10 ffs. If the killer doesnt see anyone 9 times out of 10 hes hooking and turning to run for something else. Give him a reason to stay and unhooked arent safe. Alternatively if you wait 10/15 seconds and he keeps camping, GO DO GENS.
  • DreamnomadDreamnomad Member Posts: 2,847

    @Wolf74 said:
    Solo survivor should just use their brain.
    Following some simpler rules will bring them on the same level as SWF.
    1. Use Self Care.
    2. Use an exhaustion perk (SB, DH or BL)
    3. Spread out, do different gens.
    4. Every survivor has to cleanse at least ONE (dull) totem.
    5. If you get chased, try to lose the killer.
    6. If you can't lose the killer, waste his time.
    7. If your outside a chase, do gens or heal.
    8. Only do safe unhooks and never try to combat a camper

    These are good suggestions for solo survivors, but it wouldn't bring them anywhere close to being as strong as SWF. Take your final suggestion for example. SWF the person being camped can just tell the other players that she's being camped and thus not waste 1 - 3 other players time running across the map to find that information out. That is the difference between being able to properly punish a camper or not. If all that time spent running around was spent working on generators.

    For you number 4 suggestion, SWF can instantly communicate how many totems have been destroyed. That means no wasted time looking for totems that don't exist. For your number 5 and 6 suggestions, that's great advice, but it is even better if the survivor being chased knows which gens are being worked on so they don't lead the killer to another survivor on accident.

    The number 3 suggestion is much more efficient if you are on voice comms. Then you don't need to waste time running around finding a gen that isn't already being worked on. Even if you were able to convince all 4 solo survivors to use the same strategy, that is no substitute for actual communication in game.

  • CornChipCornChip Member Posts: 540
    Wolf74 said:

    Solo survivor should just use their brain.
    Following some simpler rules will bring them on the same level as SWF.
    1. Use Self Care.
    2. Use an exhaustion perk (SB, DH or BL)
    3. Spread out, do different gens.
    4. Every survivor has to cleanse at least ONE (dull) totem.
    5. If you get chased, try to lose the killer.
    6. If you can't lose the killer, waste his time.
    7. If your outside a chase, do gens or heal.
    8. Only do safe unhooks and never try to combat a camper
    .:edit:.
    9. If you are on the hook and get camped, flap your arms

    So basically git gud - _-
  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 3,980

    @Master said:

    @ad19970 said:

    @Tzeentchling9 said:
    Built in Kindred, Bond, Empathy, Object of Obsession+Sole Survivor, Alert, Small Game, Detective's Hunch, Windows of Opportunity, Wake Up, and Open Handed is a good start to getting Solo Survivors up to the same power level as SWF.

    That seems a bit extreme, doesn't it? I agree with the first three, Kindred, Bond and Empathy, the rest are way too much.
    Honestly Kindred is the main advantage swf survivors have, Knowing what other survivors are doing while someone is hooked is such a help.

    It sounds extreme, but think about it. if a single survivor has the aura of the killer, then the whole team has the knowledge in a SWF. There is a reason why killers complain about it so much :wink:

    I get that, it makes sense. I do think that once a survivor finds a totem, the aura of that totem should be seen by all survivors. But that would also mean that Hex Perks finally need to be reworked to work differently.
    That with the aura also makes sense, but it does require at least one of them to run that perk in order to see the aura of the killer. Also, I doubt swf survivors always communicate about where exactly the killer is. You can't always exactly pinpoint him, describing his exact location is also hard since many areas on a map are not unique. So saying something like killer is at a jungle gym won't really help a lot. I don't believe swf survivors have that much of an advantage really.

  • ReneAenslandReneAensland Member Posts: 838

    @Tsulan said:
    Just add in game voice com.
    Remove all the indicators that have been added during the last year.

    That's it.

    No.

  • DocFabronDocFabron Member Posts: 2,408
    edited November 2018
    Wolf74 said:

    Solo survivor should just use their brain.
    Following some simpler rules will bring them on the same level as SWF.
    1. Use Self Care.
    2. Use an exhaustion perk (SB, DH or BL)
    3. Spread out, do different gens.
    4. Every survivor has to cleanse at least ONE (dull) totem.
    5. If you get chased, try to lose the killer.
    6. If you can't lose the killer, waste his time.
    7. If your outside a chase, do gens or heal.
    8. Only do safe unhooks and never try to combat a camper
    .:edit:.
    9. If you are on the hook and get camped, flap your arms

    Well the thing is... We have to buff solos to SWF level if we want to see hefty killer buffs. If we keep solos as they are now, we'll only see killers get miniscule buffs that contribute nothing.

    If solos were to get built-in Kindred and voice comms.. I imagine every new patch would have some really good buffs. We might even see secondary objectives be added quickly.
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