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No Mither ? No Way !

ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243
edited May 14 in General Discussions

This perk has been the laughing stock of the survivor community.

We've all been there where we spawn in and see someone else taking the perk and groan in shame as the 4k looms above.

We've also been there for whatever reason where we take the perk and live to regret it.

But, let's not forget, the perk is working as intended as a meme 'Hard-Mode' perk.


Should the perk be changed so that it's actually fun to bring, something that doesn't destroy the game for your allies, or should it remain a joke perk to challenge yourself with?

If the perk does change to become a viable pick to bring into the Trial, what should the rework look like?


What incarnation of No Mither would make it attractive for YOU to bring into your matches frequently?

What would keep you from saying... 'No Mither ? No Way !'

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Comments

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    What are some creative changes you'd like to see to make the perk better, @GoshJosh ?

    What would make you say 'Hmmm... maybe I'll bring this from time to time' instead?

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,806

    Like I mentioned above, you’d need to totally remove the permanent broken status for starters. You can’t even consistently go for unhooks while injured, if the killer is anywhere nearby. It also hurts the team versus an Oni or killer with Thanataphobia. I don’t mind if you start the trial injured, but need to have the option to heal throughout the trial.

    As @Sumnox also said above, it should also have 100% reduction of groans of pain. It’s weird it’s not right now for how risky the perk is to run. A weaker Tenacity effect would be fine too. I don’t agree with permanent endurance status effect, because it would actually be stronger than being healthy against insta-down killer powers and perks. Perhaps it could be earned and/or have a limited number of times it gives endurance. Or you have endurance only while broken as well.

    Maybe you get the broken status for 60 seconds when taking a protection hit, keeping in line with David’s play style and other two perks.

  • SlowpeachSlowpeach Member Posts: 530
    edited May 15

    Yeah the only thing I know this perk being used in a 'beneficial' way is one guy deliberately allowing themselves to be downed in a position that has only one eligible hook and then someone else sabotages that hook. The killer is now in zugzwang to use a chess term which basically means any move they make loses, if they pick them up they don't make it to a hook, if the killer doesn't, they get up on their own. They can also run other perks which make it difficult for the killer to transport or whatever.

    Granted the only winning move in this scenario is not to play and ignore the guy but that can take time to figure out. There are also a few maps and RNG where there's a lot of spots where this is viable. Heaven help you if THREE people are in on this.

    Considering this? It absolutely should have another effect entirely if it's best contribution to the game is basically bullying.

    Why does David have such polarising perks? Even We gunna live forever while not overpowered is still the best bloodpoint booster.

  • CleverotterCleverotter Member Posts: 74

    no mither more like no bitches

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,806

    I would actually argue WGLF is overpowered since its buff.. removes any ability for a killer to pressure by slugging. Ruins Twins all by itself. It should be nerfed in half to a 50% faster healing speed on slugs.

    Sorry to go slightly off topic.

  • dspaceman20dspaceman20 Member Posts: 4,251

    Not to go completely off topic but if dead hard is going to be nerfed then no mither should be reworked completely.

    No Mither was created with dead hard in mind. Could you imagine how David would be the absolute worst survivor if they made no Mither without dead hard

  • JohnWick1654JohnWick1654 Member Posts: 484

    I know half of the possible process to make No Water viable,

    Firstly the benefits need to own up to the hindrance, Broken but can pick themselves up,

    yeah, the killer can literally see you are broken and injured since the start of the trial.

    So picking yourself up isn't exactly the most exciting thing to run this for.

    If it increased gen speed or healing or anything like that, or had a different effect, that would be much better.


    The downfall would be inability to heal to full,


    or the perk could be even stronger, with the downside of the perk being the only one you could use, covering all 4 slots by itself.

  • KateMain86KateMain86 Member Posts: 1,419

    The only thing I would change about this perk is to hide the broken status effect from the killer so they don't know you have it. That would add some value to it.

  • CleverotterCleverotter Member Posts: 74

    Yes but also no other perk injures you at the start of the match

  • ReikoMoriReikoMori Member Posts: 2,236

    No Mither is the bane of Plague and Legion funnily enough. Like, it messes with your expectations so hard.

  • Megmain80Megmain80 Member Posts: 138

    The only change that needs to be made is it activates on the first hit and does not show a broken status to the killer.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    I wouldn't say it's the 'bane' of their playstyle. Those two killers are designed to keep players injured and waste their time by forcing them to mend or drink from fountains.

    While the Plague wont get many (if any) fountains from a No Mither player, they will still contaminate their friends, and the Legion still wastes the player's time with mending.


    In thew end, you're going up against anti-heal killers with the inability to heal. You're not doing anything but exactly what they want you to do in the first place. It's like having an 'Always Oblivious' perk against a stealth killer. Just because it's redundant to a degree doesn't mean you're countering them. Ya know?

  • KateMain86KateMain86 Member Posts: 1,419

    Oh I wouldn't mind still being injured. The killer wouldn't need to see it with the perk on. Maybe that can be something else the perk could do in that it makes you not appear injured on the icon even though you are.

  • humanbeing1704humanbeing1704 Member Posts: 7,550

    No mither is interesting

    Sometimes a killer will think of it as a easy tunnel but if you give them a long chase you made em lose the game

  • ZachcjjjZachcjjj Member Posts: 455

    i like no mither as it is and i even liked it pre buff because i think some memey/ fun perks are good

  • ReverseVelocityReverseVelocity Member Posts: 1,506

    No Mither is a perk I like to run occassionally, and it can be really fun to use. The fact that the killer can't slug you (and they KNOW that) can actually be of huge benefit to your team, although at a pretty big detriment to yourself.

    Sometimes I throw myself at the killer while they're chasing a teammate who has been hooked more than me, and it puts them in a Catch 22, they either have to let me pick myself up, or lose the more valuable chase. It also makes you excellent bait if you're a good looper, as a lot of killers can't resist the easy looking hook. Is this more effective than regular protection hits? I don't know, but it sure is fun. Just be prepared to die for your team most games.

    That said, I think it should give you a 100% Pain Sound reduction, and the ability to crawl while recovering. This would make it easier to slip away unnoticed when slugged and pick yourself up. Also, a big helping of bonus bloodpoints when you escape with the perk would be really nice.

    I don't think the perk needs a full rework, a hard-mode option is cool to have and the perk is pretty iconic.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    @ReverseVelocity @Zachcjjj @GoshJosh @Sumnox

    My esteemed comembers of the community and No Mither


    What do you think of this incarnation of the perk:


    ~

    Description: “You can shake off even the roughest punishment when you’re pushed.”

    Begin the trial injured and Broken for 90/60/30 seconds.

    While Broken, gain the ability to revive self from the Dying state and gain Endurance for 16 seconds.

    Escaping and Surviving the trial grants all other survivors +100% Bloodpoints.

    Once restored to full health, this perk activates:

    Taking a protection hit while Healthy causes you to become Broken for 30 seconds.

    Upon recovering from the Broken status, this perk deactivates.

    Flavor-text: “’He lamped me good before I could do so much as stand. Didn’t let up neither. Just kept throwin’ himself at me ‘til I was on the ground. Didn’t expect me to get back up so fast, lost him some good teeth for the trouble.’ – David King”

    ~


    Once you are healed, the next time you are Broken, you gain Endurance.

    You basically get Borrowed Time+ If you take a protection hit.

    The tradeoff is that you start injured and the killer knows what you're up to.

    You give your allies a bunch of BP if you make it out alive, though.

    By causing survivors to spawn into the match injured and unable to heal - and punishing them with prolonged injury and less pressure upon taking protection hits, this perk retains its ‘Challenge Mode’ doctrine and promotes extremely dangerous and foolhardy behavior to those who take it. Keeping in the spirit of David’s defensive and patently dangerous take on altruism allows this perk to generate high stock for survivors that are able to work around it. By granting Endurance in particular circumstances, killers will be encouraged to tunnel the No Mither user to remove the threat of the perk from the game - but will find them difficult to hold down when used in conjunction with certain killer interactions as well as synergies with other survivor perks. While there is potential to force powerful situations, this perk has the potential to backfire horribly, which also makes it less attractive for certain team types. Granting bonus bloodpoints to allies allows it not only to act as a consolidation ‘Sorry I spawned injured and possibly screwed everything up’, but it’s also a great incentive for good-willed players to bring the perk into the trial.


    Thoughts?

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,806

    It doesn’t work, because base recovery takes 30.4 seconds - which you would already be recovered from the broken status, even if you somehow went immediately down at the start of the trial. You would actually want a longer broken status to gain the ability to pick yourself up from the dying state, which makes it counterintuitive to have a shorter broken duration for higher tiers.

    The bonus BP wouldn’t work either, because there’s always the possibility that other survivors would die and/or escape before you - therefore not being calculated into their final scores. Unless they somehow programmed that.

  • SumnoxSumnox Member Posts: 605

    I do like the idea. the numbers could be adjusted, but I like that other people win if they help you make it, it's a good idea in a world of selfish randoms.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    Would 120/90/60 second initial and 60 second broken on protection hit make it better?

  • xBlitzAce1989xxBlitzAce1989x Member Posts: 336

    I'm not going to spoil it for you, but CERTAIN builds on CERTAIN maps make No Mither very useful. (No Mither, Soul Guard, Boil Over, Flip-Flop.) It works very well on one particular map and before anyone says it, no, I'm not talking about the RPD. I've run the build multiple times and yes, it works. You need to find the perk combo that works for you. Not anyone perk is completely useless with the right build.

  • xBlitzAce1989xxBlitzAce1989x Member Posts: 336

    I run it only when I bring an offering for a specific map (not the RPD.) There's another map that with the right build, will allow you to wiggle out of Iron Grasp if given enough time. I'm not going to mention which map because I'm noticing a lot of entitlement on the boards from Killers that always expect a 4k and when even one Survivor escapes, "OMG it needs to be nerfed!"

  • GoshJoshGoshJosh Member Posts: 4,806

    Well, maybe I wasn’t clear. If your only option to Unbreakable is while broken, you probably would want it to last even longer - and probably stay permanent like it is now. That’s a key feature of the perk right now. So reducing the broken timer for leveling up the perk would be kind of bad. There shouldn’t be an incentive to stay broken, in my opinion. It’s a powerful and bad status effect to have as a survivor.

    I’m also not sure if you’re saying the endurance would last 16 seconds from taking a protection hit? If so, that’s kind of a bad trade off to be broken for a long time.

  • ValikValik Member Posts: 1,243

    I'm uncertain what reality would have a killer not pick you up instantly upon downing you if they see you with No Mither.

    Upon that, if you're running into a no-hook corner in every chase, you're doing more to waste your own time than the Killer's.

    Just a guess, but you're probably talking about Erie of Crows, because that map is horrendous in every which way.

    The idea with the change would be to incentivize players to heal up to activate their ability to become broken on a protection hit, which would grant them Endurance for 16 seconds.

    The synergy with other perks as well would make it a powerful addition to certain builds. Healing an ally with For The People and gaining Endurance, for example - or having Deliverance grant Endurance for a risky self-unhook. Renewal + No Mither would give you an extended BT when Unhooked.

    But you'd have to heal up to find use. It's very difficult to use well - but it at least has function.

    It is not an incentive to stay broken but is, rather, a very strong incentive to heal up once the timer expires.

    It also is a flat buff against certain killers and perks.

    Plague cannot full-infect you in chase and then swing for a hit. Weighty Rattle on Twins will allow you to tank a hit within 16 seconds of getting pounced on with Victor. Legion Pin Legion can't 5th hit you if they tried.

    Hilariously, if someone used For The People on you after getting hit by a Rusted Chains Cannibal - you get away scot free.

    By allowing players to heal up at certain times and granting them Endurance in particular circumstances, it can become a game changer.

    Especially in end-game trades. Taking a protection hit at the hook can very easily place the killer in a lose-lose situation if you bring BT.

    By allowing players to - in certain circumstances - ace the killer with this perk given the tradeoff of spawning injured and having to heal in very specific circumstances, it can be both powerful as well as challenging to employ.


    No Mither, in absolutely no reasonable way, is a slug perk.

    If there was a little 'Bill' icon beside the portrait of every single Survivor with Unbreakable equipped, no self-respecting killer would ever let you hang around on the ground. They're going to pick you up.

    No Mither, is not designed to give a bonus to slugs. It is designed to force the killer to hook and kill the person who took the perk. The idea of the perk is - you always go down in 1 hit and you don't get any second chances. It's a challenge, not a bonus.

    So long as you are broken, you will be able to recover - true.

    But the only way to find value out of this is to place ambiguity onto the perk from the Killer's perspective.

    If the perk made a player ALWAYS 100% able to pick themselves up, they won't be slugged in the least, because a killer will understand and see as much.

    If the Broken status effect is timed, however, a Killer may take the risk and gamble that the 30 seconds or so it takes to pick yourself up may wait out the timer. By placing a timer on the perk that killers cannot see, there will be many more interactions where the killer may underestimate how much time remains on the broken effect and slug a survivor only to see them revitalize to the injured state.

    Without the ambiguity of a timer, there will be virtually no instances where a killer is going to leave you on the ground.

    If the timer is too short, killers may leave you on the ground often - but you wont be able to revive.

    If the timer is too long, you will reliably be able to revive - but killers aren't going to let you do it.

    There has to be a happy middle ground where killers will often feel misplaced confidence or take their reasonable chances while survivors that bring the perk will find certain instances where they can find Unbreakable value from the perk.

    However, the design to allow players to self-revive perpetually is not at all a bonus of the perk, it is part of its 'Hard mode' detriment. Replicating the perpetual Broken and perpetual self-revive makes the perk markedly worse for players - especially when compared to others.

  • xBlitzAce1989xxBlitzAce1989x Member Posts: 336

    Nope not that map either. It's Ormond. It's not 100% guaranteed but it works at least 75% of the time. I don't run the build to be a jerk either. Matchmaking has been absolutely terrible for the past few months and I'm usually on my own unless I'm playing in Co-op. Dying on first hook because people are too busy hiding in corners gets old after awhile... and two days ago I was slugged and left to die on another map. Two Survivors decided to work with the Killer and completely ignored me (I 100% reported them all.)

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