No, I think you just confused yourself. Or you're doing a very good impression of looping my statements.
Remember when you said the killer tunnels because gens go fast? And I said the killer tunnels to win, even if they didn't have to because they like winning. And then you brought up old Undying and the threads of the past like it was proof otherwise because it's the only thing you brought up in response, which even if they did complain less, you're only singling out camping as a strategy people didn't do with old Undying, not tunneling, which means this whole exercise essentially went nowhere.
I am definitely feeling the 3AM crust brain right around now.
Honestly, if we just replaced all killers' legs with 0.4 m/s roombas the game would be infinitely better.
You are suggesting that a reduction in complaints about camping means there was less camping going on. I point out that DH got fewer complaints when CoH was released.
The point is that a reduction in complaints about camping =/= there's less camping going on.
Also, you should mention that Killer's were camping because hex:ruin + hex:undying pretty much gave the killer the game. Why do you need to camp and tunneling when you can do anything you want to win.
There are still tons of complains about DH, because nothing changed in that regard. CoH is just another extremely powerful perk, that got nerfed twice, but the nerfs didn´t address the core issue of the perk. However, the forum was full of threads, where people claimed CoH is useless now. Which it isn´t. But just, because the forum was flooded with those complain threads, doesn´t mean the amount of DH threads went down. Its just that the CoH threads were more visible.
But we should go back to the original thread, which is about gen speeds.
Okay, i see the issue here. As i said, killers need to get a survivor out of the match asap, because gens go to fast. There is simply not enough time to spread the hooks, since survivors have often completed all gens by the time the killer got 4 hooks. Undying Ruin aleviated this, by making it more efficient to spread the damage and constantly switch targets. So far we agree, yes?
We also agreed, that some killers would camp&tunnel regardless of using the perk combo. Because reasons. Just like survivors would gen rush a match with party streamers/cakes. But this isn´t how the majority of the playerbase plays, is it? Most killers enjoy a match that lasts somewhere around 12-15 minutes. Which nets a decent amount of bloodpoints for everyone. But thats simply not possible with the current gen speed.
Survivors dictate how fast the match goes and no amount of slowdown perks changes this. A killer could get a good start, get 2 hooks before the first gen is completed and still lose once survivors focus to finish gens.
There are still tons of complains about DH, because nothing changed in that regard.
Yes, there are now, but there were fewer when CoH was released.
CoH is just another extremely powerful perk, that got nerfed twice, but the nerfs didn´t address the core issue of the perk. However, the forum was full of threads, where people claimed CoH is useless now.
No, there were still far more complaints about CoH than about CoH being nerfed too much. I'll grant you there were considerable complaints about the nerf, but that was mostly divided between 'this nerf is not the nerf it needs' and 'this isn't enough of a nerf'. There were very few saying it was overnerfed.
But just, because the forum was flooded with those complain threads, doesn´t mean the amount of DH threads went down. Its just that the CoH threads were more visible.
But likewise, that argument also goes for your 'Before the Ruin + Undying combo was nerfed, there were fewer camping complaints'.
That's the point I'm making. You're using your perception of the forum presence of camping complaints to argue that camping will decrease if killers are made stronger, but as I argued before, the presence of a more pressing issue can push other issues to the side. And as you are arguing yourself just now, other issues could just have been more visible without there being a decrease in complaints about camping.
That's all I'm arguing here. Pointing to the forums as proof of a reduction in camping is a long shot.
Of course i´m using my own perception. Just like everyone else uses his own perception. I give you the benefit of the doubt in regard of the undying and camping threads.
Now, what is your opinion on gen speeds?
I think they're a necessary evil since they're underpinned by the threat of camping. You can't slow gen speeds down, since that'd be a direct buff to camping. So until camping is addressed, they have to stay as they are.
On the flipside, BNPs can get Fd. Those were a terrible idea and are the real equivalent of early moris, though slightly less drastic.
I also think that a direct nerf to gen speeds would hurt the gameplay loop a bit, but there's creative solutions for that.
Fair enough. Lets see how the upcoming changes to the meta perks and the reason why the meta perks are meta, will change dbd.
Just play "scummy", as in tunnel and proxy camp when necessary. I'm not talking about tunneling or camping out of rage, that'll net you a loss. I win 90% of my games this way. If someone trash talks you at the end, you're usually doing something right.
The problem is the snowball effect. Whichever side gets the lead on their objective, whether it's hooks or gens, can then apply more pressure, more hooks and gens, much easier.
For survivors, this can seem like "gen rushing" when they're just completing their objectives and the relative lack of killer pressure makes it progressively easier. So it can seem like tunnelling out a survivor early is the only way to compete.
But on the other side, if you made gens any slower, the snowball in the killers favour when they can apply effective pressure will be oppressive, which would only make tunnelling survivors even more effective.
Tunnelling and Gen rushing are simply two sides of the same coin, each side completing their objective and quickly and efficiently as possible. Any linear adjustments to how fast those objectives are completed will only skew the game in favour of one side or the other.
Instead, there needs to be some form of scaling to compensate for the snowball effect. You can't really apply this to the killers objective as whether or not they score a hook is down to a whole range of factors, so the target has to be repair speeds.
E.g. The more gens are repaired, the longer subsequent gens take to repair. The fewer survivors remain in the game, the quicker gens can be repaired.
So some kind of algorithm like the old hatch spawn mechanics is needed. I would say survivors base repair speed should be 90% (0.9c/s) +5% for each remaining gen, -5% for each other survivor still in the game.
So at the start of the game that's 100% repair speed (90% +25% -15% for 1c/s), but if four gens are repaired and all survivors remain in the game, it's reduced to 80% (90% +5% -15% for 0.8c/s), meanwhile if 2 survivors are eliminated but no gens have been repaired, it'll be 110% (90% +25% -5% for 1.1c/s).
It's not a major difference that would penalise one side or the other for 'winning', just enough that the snowball is slowed down and it becomes more feasible to turn around for either side.
I agree the genspeeds are really damn fast in high MMR which makes slowdown feel mandatory against semi-decent survivor teams. But the issue with doing something like changing the time to repair solo to 100 seconds, or in general just increasing time to repair by 25% across the board is that now survs have to sit and glare into a gen for even longer. Gens in low level games would never get finished.
I think the solution, other than to rework gens to incorporate searching the map for parts, would be to incorporate some form of basekit Corrupt + Lethal. My thought was there's a dark fog for three seconds or so that shows where survs have spawned. If they're multiple together, you can't tell how many are where, just that they are in the locations of these dark clouds. Similarly, a straight up 30 seconds Corrupt would be good, with the perk being nerfed to 90 seconds instead of 120.
That would make the whole "1 chase = 3 gens popped" thing far less frequent. Ideally gens should be made more interesting, or require moving around the map for parts to complete, anything that increases interaction between the survivors and the killer, but that's too much to ask right now of BHVR. These basekit changes would be a good place to start.
Another issue is of course a Freddy with full slowdown is just completely different to face than a good Blight or Nurse with good slowdown. But I don't think they'll even out the power levels of killers for a long time considering how long it took them to buff Legion and Ghost Face. Great changes and all, but it's just so slow when lots of easy changes to killers would make them better to play as and more competitive and less reliant on slowdown.
As a final note, I'd increase the time on hook between hook states by 20 seconds after adding these basekit changes, to make camping hookstates/proxy camping and then tunneling a survivor out of the game at least be less effective of a strategy.
The issue isn't base gen speed, it's the various ways survivors have to speed up the base speed combined with map issues and healing problems. In the past killers slowed the game down by keeping survivors injured and making the map unsafe, both of these options have been removed with maps being extremely safe with numerous god windows in nearly every map now on top of the fact that healing is extremely fast, easy and now for the first time unlimited (COH.) It really is just terrible design from the dev team and a complete lack of understanding on how the game is played. They want 10-12 chases and hook states per game but make it take longer to get a single hook than it is to finish THREE GENS.
I honestly don't get it. When I play survivor I want points, BP or to rank up to get the BP reward. I'll bring prove thy self just so after 1 or 2 gens I'm full with my objectives points meaning I can be more altruistic and bold getting me more points, and more likely I'll end the game popping even if I die. Yes escaping is a very nice feeling and some challenges require escaping but if I know the killer played fair I wanna try and meme around or die for them. Oh and it's so fun seeing this topic and someone else's comment is just about the other side. Personally I don't know how effective the perk rework will be but I think if gens didn't get done so fast you might not have as many camper/tunnelers. I really don't see how anyone's gonna punish camping/tunneling when in some cases it's needed.
I really don’t care what you think I sound like. I usually do not call anyone an idiot unless they give me a reason to, so quotation marks on something I never called you isn't going to change that.
You act as if a pallet stun (something which is very rare- like one in a million) is a reliable counter against Nurse. First off, stunning her would be counter productive because if it is her first blink, you are not getting rid of her power. She can just recharge her second blink and down you. At which point good luck finding cover.
Usually when I think of a counter to a killer, I don't think about the most miniscule way that you can counter them. Especially on a character that by default ignores most mechanics in the game.
i have a clip where every gen gets done in 3m and 25s and i wanted to dc so bad that game.
I didn't say it's a counter, there's a time and place to use them but obviously a low experienced mmr survivor like yourself wont know that. ;)
This is a very small change, but what about making sure that the craving does not end with the destruction of pallets or damage to survivors?
Furthermore, we believe that reducing the number of pallets and windows by 30~50% from what it is now would balance the chase and repair.
What surprised me when I came out of hibernation was the number of pallets and windows and the number of survivors bringing in items.
What surprised me most was the wind pressure generated on the pallets...
Is you calling me low MmR survivor suppose to hurt my feelings?
Oh darling you don’t even know how many hours I have in this game.
U must be new to the game if u think healing is unlimited for the first time lol way back when self-care was so fast u could heal mid chase, like what are u talking about? Also, It takes longer to get a hook than to repair a gen because in a chase ur versing someone else, a gen is just a qte minigame. That being said, some killers dont have the mobility nor the map pressure to keep up at high mmrs (not to say theyre weak) which is sad cuz on larger maps GF, Myers, pig etc suffer a lot, therefore slowdown perks feel mandatory. That shouldnt be the case at all
I think regression is what needs to be addressed.
Kicking needs to do more damage and to stack based upon amount of hits, and to stop the regression needs to take longer than 0.1 secs
I blame prove thyself & strong toolboxes with built to last etc. Gens can already be done very fast if people know what they're doing but add onto that commodious with bnp and perks to replenish your toolbox and you can end the game ridiculously quickly.
Built to Last requires sitting in a locker for 12+ seconds, for diminishing returns each time it’s used in a trial. How much time does it actually save, if any?
Prove Thyself is a necessary survivor perk option because of all the stackable gen damaging, regressing, and blocking perks available to killers. I think it shaves something like six seconds off of co-op repair times, from start to finish.
If you don't have gen rushers you win, if you do... you most likely lose. If you use a build to slow down gens it gets "boring"
... if they nerfed gens then using these specific perks would slow them down even more and make matches unbearably long.
You really can't win in this situation. There's honestly very little they can do about stuff like this... it's hard to balance an asymmetrical game.
Items are completely busted in dbd especially toolboxes since you can save about 80% gen time with the strongest toolbox setups/perks. For built to last it's not that much of a time sink and you should only be using it at most 2 times. You can combine streetwise too for even more benefit if you can your buddy stack streetwise and one prove you can knock out a very important gen long before the first chase even gets close to finishing and spread out and use the rest of your toolboxes to crush the other gens.
“There are plenty of reasons to pass up chasing and defend a hook instead, doesn't matter how many gens are up.”
this was the response I got when i shared the screenshot of Myers camping me in a 3v1 at five gens. So killers are gonna camp and tunnel regardless because it’s easier. Plus werent bubbas camping first hook a thing since 2017? How would slowing down gens counter that?