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Legion was designed to be fun to play against?

CrizpenCrizpen Member Posts: 58

First, this ISN'T going to be a rant on how bad Legion is to play, there have been plenty of those. This is about how un-fun Legion is to play against.

First off, the challenge: for good survivors and SWF groups, there isn't a lot of challenge to him. You can run him for quite a while if you're his only target, and if he breaks off to chase someone else, just mend and go back to work. You don't even need to or want to heal against Legion, there isn't much point: his next Frenzy isn't going to do any more damage than not healing does. And without Frenzy, he's as fun as playing the Huntress with no hatchets. As you pointed out in your stream: No Mither is viable against Legion! It should say a lot that going into a match damaged and unable to heal is viable against a killer. So, there's that: he isn't much of a challenge, and that isn't fun. This is a horror game! We're supposed to be afraid of the killers!

Second off, the perk builds: Legion isn't viable with exposure perks because exposure won't proc off his Frenzy attack. NOED, Make Your Choice, Devour Hope... those aren't things we particularly need to worry about (or be afraid of). No, the best Legion perks are the ones that draw out the game as long as possible, and give Legion as much time as possible to actually down people: Ruin and Thanataphobia, and maybe Overcharge or PGtW. Or, because he does hit, but not easily down, survivors well, Knock Out or Third Seal: why put them on the hook if you can hide them on the ground until you manage to put them all there? Because, we all know how much fun slugging games are for survivors. Neither super long games, nor crawling around on my belly sound particularly "fun."

I'm sorry, I don't wish to sound rude, but I was rather taken aback by the comments made in the last Q&A, and in ones prior, that killers are designed to be fun to play and play against, not necessarily be "competitive." To counter this argument, I would point to your own description on Twitter: "Dead by Daylight is an asymmetrical multiplayer horror game..."

Asymmetrical, as far as I've always known the word, means the killer should be stronger than the survivors. That in an asymmetrical game, the survivors need to work cooperatively together against the killer in order to win, that's why they outnumber him. If the killer isn't strong enough to effectively put a No Mither player on the ground... the asymmetry is going the wrong direction.

But let's revisit the "not competitive" concept: each match is competitive! Survivors try to survive, killers try to kill. They are opposite objectives, it is a competition. Unless "fun," and "horror" are intended to mean the killer dances around the map while the survivors farm points, but that isn't fun for me as a killer or a survivor, and it's not why I play the game. And if a DLC to a horror game comes out which does not provide some fear of the killer, what reason would I have to purchase it?

Let's take an extreme: you enter a match and see the killer perpetually running into the map wall. That's it. You do your 5 gens and you leave. Does that sound like fun? There are plenty of web-based games I can play for free that only require me pressing M1 and the space bar. Granted, Legion isn't as bad as just running into a wall, but he isn't as far off as I would like to admit.

On the other hand, when you enter a match and you hear a chainsaw in the distance, or the Nurse's scream... then you start looking around for where it's coming from, you start getting excited, there's a sense of danger. Then you're playing a horror game, which you picked up because a horror game sounds like it would be a whole lot more fun than Secret Agent Barbie (an actual title).

That isn't to say that every killer should be Nurse level, or Hillbilly, but viable. You guys said you weren't necessarily always concerned about top tier competition, and you shouldn't be, but a new player picking up Nurse isn't going to fair well against a group of survivors either. She's going to be blinking all over the place without the control to land hits. Hand a brand new player the Hillbilly against a group of survivors, and he's going to be veering off into walls instead of actually downing survivors.

You give the players the tools, and it's the player's skill, cunning, wits and knowledge that determine the outcome of the match. Killers can certainly be overpowered, but that's no where near where Legion is. When the average killer becomes "too competitive" they rank up and face stiffer competition. When you release a killer who isn't competitive at any level, he may be picked up out of curiosity, and then soon abandoned. Why waste your time designing a killer no one wants to play more than a few rounds? Why would I keep playing a killer who can stab a lot, but in the end, I get few points and no advancement? It's especially frustrating for survivors who don't get to choose which killer they go up against. Survivors don't get to choose if they want a challenge in facing a good killer or a terrible one, which is why there's a middle ground called viability. If I get into a game with a Legion, I know it's going to be a long waste of my time, and that's it. Because it's a waste of time to heal, and there are unlikely to be too many hooks to pull people off of, I can't even look forward to altruism points.

Lastly, I would like to address the "we take player comments about new killers with a large grain of salt," comment from your last stream. That's awesome! So, why have a PTB? Our concerns/comments/suggestions aren't worth much, so why bother? Just release what you'll release and if it sucks, we'll go find other games. I own a marketing and sales contract company, and if I were ever to tell one of my clients - or their clients - that I take their input with "a large grain of salt," they would promptly cancel their contracts with me, and I wouldn't blame them in the least. There's a lot of money riding on my work, just as I'm sure there is on yours; so why alienate and insult your clients?

If the demo you put on is any judge, a huge portion of the player base has played this game a whole lot more than the people working there. They understand how your changes actually effect the game, not on paper, but in practice. So, why tell them their opinions aren't worth consideration?

But then again, I guess this is just another one of those unimportant feedback comments, destined for the dust bin.

Comments

  • IncarnateIncarnate Member Posts: 520

    First off, extremely well put, and I completely agree.

    @Crizpen said:

    Lastly, I would like to address the "we take player comments about new killers with a large grain of salt," comment from your last stream. That's awesome! So, why have a PTB? Our concerns/comments/suggestions aren't worth much, so why bother? Just release what you'll release and if it sucks, we'll go find other games. I own a marketing and sales contract company, and if I were ever to tell one of my clients - or their clients - that I take their input with "a large grain of salt," they would promptly cancel their contracts with me, and I wouldn't blame them in the least. There's a lot of money riding on my work, just as I'm sure there is on yours; so why alienate and insult your clients?

    I especially agree with this part, and this is also something I've been trying to point out for some time now, it doesn't make sense to make a PTB if they're just going to disregard the feedback and suggestions they're being given from their players who've invested many hours into the PTB, alot of energy, time and effort put into it. So if they're just taking it with aka "a large grain of salt," which in other words is disregarding the feedback and suggestions, they're basically wasting their players energy, time and efforts, which is downright arrogant, disrespectful and rude. With that kind of attitude, they don't deserve our money. Also, this attitude has been shown alot time already on the dev streams by a particular dev, he knows who he is, I'm sure, and so does many in the community. That attitude really has to go, it really does.

    @Crizpen said:

    If the demo you put on is any judge, a huge portion of the player base has played this game a whole lot more than the people working there. They understand how your changes actually effect the game, not on paper, but in practice. So, why tell them their opinions aren't worth consideration?

    But then again, I guess this is just another one of those unimportant feedback comments, destined for the dust bin.

    Exactly, they should really be listening alot more attentively and diligently to the players, than that of the devs own opinions. I think it would be good for the game and community, if they were letting the community affect the content that gets into the game, what how it's balanced and so forth.

  • PureHostilityPureHostility Member Posts: 100

    I seriously doubt they will ever bother reading past your first 2 lines... Even if they do, their ego won't allow them to admit to the failure of their planning.

  • MajiJoMajiJo Member Posts: 3

    I literally made an account for this post. And I 100% agree with it. However, I do have confirmation that he is going to be "Tweaked" upon release. This is, What I hope to be, Good news. Also, Really well made post and it's completely accurate. Before Legion's reveal I believed there is no such thing as a "Bad Killer" in DBD, Given how I main Freddy who is considered the worst in the game, But when Legion was playable I was left speechless as to how weak he is. After watching countless Hours of Legion Gameplay, Counter Gameplay and even taking a stab at it myself I was shocked. And something the Devs said about it completely left me speechless as well. One of them said "We have no plans to alter his base movement speed, not at the moment at least. His Frenzy is basically a free hit, him being at normal killer speed was very problematic during development and very unbalanced..." May I remind you the Devs have also said this "If you want to win, Play Billy or Nurse." So they brought attention to Hillbilly and Nurse being the strongest, And they made Spirit become the 2nd Strongest Killer. And they think a Killer being able to DOWN someone after injuring them is Unbalanced, Are you serious? What kind of backwards logic is that? He'd be Overpowered if he was normal speed and yet Hillbilly is and he can Instantly Down someone. The only thing I can think of that is Unbalanced about Legion is using the two Very Rares that increase Deep Wound damage and Speed up the Deep Wound timer if you exploit Forced Chase Breaking. And even then! He's still weaker and less efficient than the Clown or Huntress! Literally Exploiting an Unintended action and using VERY RARE addons BARELY makes him scratch the surface of threatening. Absolutely Pathetic.

  • MajiJoMajiJo Member Posts: 3

    With Legion in his current state and the Survivor not having anything particularly ground breaking I have no reason to purchase the DLC. And the actual gameplay changes (Borrowed Time, Lockers Hiding Auras, etc...) I might just stick to being a Survivor main. Killers had to put up with enough trash and with the Devs brushing everything off and telling you to play the better Characters tells me all I need to know.

  • PebblesPebbles Member Posts: 28
    Man, this is awesome. The Devs REALLY need to read this. 

    A few notes, from my perspective:

    One, the grain of salt thing. I want to give a certain high ranking member of the DBD team the benefit of the doubt and say that he just put his foot in his mouth. I think what he meant might be, "Often times when a game developer asks for feedback, vocal minority tends to drown out more reasonable, logical people with massive, hyperbolic statements one way or another. So we have to be careful when we see a large response from the community that are still making the right decision for the balance of the game." I really hope that's what he wanted to say, because it's really the best interpretation. 

    Two, this really touched on something that I think is pretty important: as a survivor, I don't WANT to play against a weak killer. I'm only a middle rank survivor, 15-10, but when I get into a game and I'm up against, a Freddy or a Leatherface... Ugh. I know that I'm probably going to get camped, and there's absolutely no challenge or fun to playing against them. On the other hand, if I queue up and I hear a nurse scream off in the distance? Man, I'm excited. I know if this is a good nurse I'm going to be terrified to be seen, and when found im going to have to be juking for all I'm worth. Even as a sole survivor, they survivors start working together in any way they can because they HAVE to. The game REALLY shines when you're actually scared of the killer. When I really think about it, my favorite killers to play against are some of the strongest in the game: Myers, Nurse, and Spirit. I think if you polled survivors, even survivor mains, they might say the same. People WANT to challenged, they just want that challenge to be fair and have interesting counterplay. The Devs have to keep in mind that this entire game is predicated on survivors and killers WANTING to fight each other. Because otherwise, the best strategy is just to farm together. 

    tl;dr, same as OP. Legion isn't fun to play against, and devs need to be more careful about not alienating the community with their words. Because I think they do listen. 
  • Dabrownman1812Dabrownman1812 Member Posts: 1,501
    Large grain doesn't mean ignore, rip. They do this to avoid making a mistake so early #ripfreddy
  • RSBRSB Member Posts: 1,807

    @PureHostility said:
    I seriously doubt they will ever bother reading past your first 2 lines... Even if they do, their ego won't allow them to admit to the failure of their planning.

  • Condorloco_26Condorloco_26 Member Posts: 295

    Very well written. I agree.

    @Crizpen said:

    On the other hand, when you enter a match and you hear a chainsaw in the distance, or the Nurse's scream... then you start looking around for where it's coming from, you start getting excited, there's a sense of danger. Then you're playing a horror game, which you picked up because a horror game sounds like it would be a whole lot more fun than Secret Agent Barbie (an actual title).

    That isn't to say that every killer should be Nurse level, or Hillbilly, but viable. You guys said you weren't necessarily always concerned about top tier competition, and you shouldn't be, but a new player picking up Nurse isn't going to fair well against a group of survivors either. She's going to be blinking all over the place without the control to land hits. Hand a brand new player the Hillbilly against a group of survivors, and he's going to be veering off into walls instead of actually downing survivors.

    Or how about looking around while working on a gen and finding out Myers is stalking in the distance? Or listening to the EW III audio cue? You know that guy is dangerous and can destroy a team in a short time. So it turns into an exciting game.

    I already said this in another thread, but it looks to me like Legion was designed to play tag with strangers over the internet. And I don't get where the horror or fear of facing Legion could come from. I mean, Tapp or David could wreck any of the Legion members in a fight if they wanted to.

  • MajiJoMajiJo Member Posts: 3

    The changes they did made no difference to Legion's stand point and instead made him even more unfun. the only addons he has that are good are Frank's Mixtape and Stab Wound Study which is now broken as hell, and every other addon being completely worthless. They also nerfed Doctor since Mending didn't work with Nurses Calling. Makes sense to me, Nerf Freddy and Doctor so Legion still sucks.

  • IncarnateIncarnate Member Posts: 520

    @Crizpen - I agree it is heartening to see so many positive responses to your initial post.
    However it is disheartening to keep seeing that the devs keep treating the community and the game like this.
    They're litterally and figuratively sabotaging and slaughtering the game and it's balance with these changes.
    Like for instance, the majority of the community members who've participated in the PTB have provided feedback and suggestions that explicitly shows concern for the balance, the viability and even the enjoyment people would get from playing the legion. Same goes with the deep wound mechanic and other unwarranted changes. The majority of the community members that have participated in the PTB have spend a great deal of time, energy, thought and effort into providing accurate, thoughtful and valuable feedback, suggestions and solutions to the issue, but what do the devs do? The Dev's do the exact opposite, like for instance they make the previous actions that were considered healing, non healing actions. In my opinion that is very blatant community disrespect from the devs. They've provided no real explanation as to why they decided to do this, especially considering it's against what the community suggested, it feels quite disconnected and a lot like they don't care about what we want out of the game.

    This statement alone: "we take player comments about new killers with a large grain of salt," which is from last dev stream, says alot about their attitude and their mindset, and the announced changes is clear and obvious proof that they really do take the player comments about new killers with a large grain of salt, and thats clearly not limited to only that, so they're basically saying that they don't take what the community says serious enough and that they know better. So much arrogance and disrespect right there, and that most certainly isn't the way to treat your customers and possible FUTURE customers. I can say one thing a lot of people won't be buying from them again. And there is something rather important here that this touches upon, namely that it's their reputation and credibility that is on the line, and with so many streamers and possible online marketers that would want to hurt their business could quite easily do so because they're very influential and very well connected. They really should care more about what they put out and how they treat their community, aka their players.

  • JoyfulLeaderJoyfulLeader Member Posts: 140

    @Incarnate said:
    @Crizpen - I agree it is heartening to see so many positive responses to your initial post.
    However it is disheartening to keep seeing that the devs keep treating the community and the game like this.
    They're litterally and figuratively sabotaging and slaughtering the game and it's balance with these changes.
    Like for instance, the majority of the community members who've participated in the PTB have provided feedback and suggestions that explicitly shows concern for the balance, the viability and even the enjoyment people would get from playing the legion. Same goes with the deep wound mechanic and other unwarranted changes. The majority of the community members that have participated in the PTB have spend a great deal of time, energy, thought and effort into providing accurate, thoughtful and valuable feedback, suggestions and solutions to the issue, but what do the devs do? The Dev's do the exact opposite, like for instance they make the previous actions that were considered healing, non healing actions. In my opinion that is very blatant community disrespect from the devs. They've provided no real explanation as to why they decided to do this, especially considering it's against what the community suggested, it feels quite disconnected and a lot like they don't care about what we want out of the game.

    This statement alone: "we take player comments about new killers with a large grain of salt," which is from last dev stream, says alot about their attitude and their mindset, and the announced changes is clear and obvious proof that they really do take the player comments about new killers with a large grain of salt, and thats clearly not limited to only that, so they're basically saying that they don't take what the community says serious enough and that they know better. So much arrogance and disrespect right there, and that most certainly isn't the way to treat your customers and possible FUTURE customers. I can say one thing a lot of people won't be buying from them again. And there is something rather important here that this touches upon, namely that it's their reputation and credibility that is on the line, and with so many streamers and possible online marketers that would want to hurt their business could quite easily do so because they're very influential and very well connected. They really should care more about what they put out and how they treat their community, aka their players.

    I agree, the devs are literally hurting themselves right now and will lose lots of money if they don't respect and listen to the community. We tell them all this negative feedback from hundreds if not thousands of players but they don't seem to care. I usually buy DBD DLCs because i know they will be fun despite the fact that they may not be the best killers. But the devs are saying that if you want to win most games, then play Nurse or Hillbilly, but the thing is I don't want to play them all the time.

    I also realized that the devs are probably running out of ideas for chapters now, just look at The Legion for example, they look generic, their power sucks, their backstory is pretty bland and edgy, hell I've see fans make better chapter ideas than chapter 10. We give them feedback for DBD, but the only changes I'm seeing is changes that the devs assume the community wants but we don't. It's pretty disappointing too, Dead by Daylight is my number 1 game I'm playing for over a year now and I didn't buy it just to be greeted with more disappointment. I don't really like the direction the game is going

  • IncarnateIncarnate Member Posts: 520

    @JoyfulLeader said:
    I agree, the devs are literally hurting themselves right now and will lose lots of money if they don't respect and listen to the community. We tell them all this negative feedback from hundreds if not thousands of players but they don't seem to care. I usually buy DBD DLCs because i know they will be fun despite the fact that they may not be the best killers. But the devs are saying that if you want to win most games, then play Nurse or Hillbilly, but the thing is I don't want to play them all the time.

    The game's director, Matthieu Cote (MC) specifically said that killers don't need to be viable, which I disagree wholeheartedly with, as this is a competetive game, and that statement right there is one of the main reason why the high ranks will remain incredible stale and boring, because we will not see many of the other killers there speficifically for that reason alone. But I guess, we can all go play Civilization 5, as it's a great game and it might be nice for a change, according to MC. Which is yet another one of disrespectful and dismissive attitudes experienced. Killers need to be viable for competitively play accross all ranks, both low and high, they absolutely need to be equally strong and viable when compared to each other with regards to competitiveness, and NO ONE should be forced to play a killer at higher ranks just to have that competitive edge! Furthermore, it absolutely sucks not to be able to play your favorite killer at high ranks just because the killer wasn't designed to be viable for high ranks. Matthieu Cote, seriously you need to take a step back and listen - when killers aren't viable it hurts the game's diversity, overall experience and enjoyment of the game, without the killers, there is no game because of how the game is designed, killers need to be viable while ALSO being fun to play - it may be you don't agree with me, but I can definitely tell you that this hurting the game more than you're willing to acknowledge.

    @JoyfulLeader said:
    I also realized that the devs are probably running out of ideas for chapters now, just look at The Legion for example, they look generic, their power sucks, their backstory is pretty bland and edgy, hell I've see fans make better chapter ideas than chapter 10. We give them feedback for DBD, but the only changes I'm seeing is changes that the devs assume the community wants but we don't. It's pretty disappointing too, Dead by Daylight is my number 1 game I'm playing for over a year now and I didn't buy it just to be greeted with more disappointment. I don't really like the direction the game is going

    That doesn't surprise me, but there is actually more proof of this, if you look closely at the legion's base power, you'll seen that it's nothing more than a blatant rehashed ripoff of the spirits power, just with a few additions and alterations, it's quite obvious.

    They really should know better by know and be able to make better balance decisions when it comes to this, because implementing unwanted changes, that not only is uncalled and unwanted, but also hurts some of the currently weakest killers in the game - Doc and Freddy, is really a bad balance decision. Not going with the feedback and suggestions to fix the legion (other killers and perks ), is likewise not a good decision.

    Lets do some math here real quick, but unfortunately I don't have the actual numbers.
    But their internal test group, are not as experienced with the game as many of those who've participated in the PTB, the players know the game better in practive than the developers, sadly. But say they only have 10 people that do internal testing and they spend a month doing with that only being what they do, 8 hours a day, 22 days a month - thats 8 x 22 = 176 hours per member, so 176 x 10 = 1760 hours in total could've been spent in actual game time, but probrably isn't. Lets say there is a 100 people participating in the PTB who only put in half the hours and only does so for a week. (8 x 0.5) x 7 = 28 hours per member, so 28 x 100 = 2800 hours. This is already more than 1000 hours playtesting hours than their internal playtester could've spent on the testing, and if their amount of hours was the same amount per day only counted for a week, then the result would be very different but more comparable. But if so then the internal playtesting would only have 280 hours in total vs. 2800 hours, the community already has 10x as many playtesting hours combined. And they go with what their internal playtesters would recommend. Does that tell you something? It does for me, namely that the community can easily put more playtesting hours into it than BHVR can. Just trying to make it apparent that, they really should be less dismissive about what those in the PTB says, as they/we have put more hours in combined than they have. However, since I don't have the hard numbers I can only assume this, but still we are more players than they are devs. So it speaks for it self.

  • JoyfulLeaderJoyfulLeader Member Posts: 140

    @Incarnate said:

    @JoyfulLeader said:
    I agree, the devs are literally hurting themselves right now and will lose lots of money if they don't respect and listen to the community. We tell them all this negative feedback from hundreds if not thousands of players but they don't seem to care. I usually buy DBD DLCs because i know they will be fun despite the fact that they may not be the best killers. But the devs are saying that if you want to win most games, then play Nurse or Hillbilly, but the thing is I don't want to play them all the time.

    The game's director, Matthieu Cote (MC) specifically said that killers don't need to be viable, which I disagree wholeheartedly with, as this is a competetive game, and that statement right there is one of the main reason why the high ranks will remain incredible stale and boring, because we will not see many of the other killers there speficifically for that reason alone. But I guess, we can all go play Civilization 5, as it's a great game and it might be nice for a change, according to MC. Which is yet another one of disrespectful and dismissive attitudes experienced. Killers need to be viable for competitively play accross all ranks, both low and high, they absolutely need to be equally strong and viable when compared to each other with regards to competitiveness, and NO ONE should be forced to play a killer at higher ranks just to have that competitive edge! Furthermore, it absolutely sucks not to be able to play your favorite killer at high ranks just because the killer wasn't designed to be viable for high ranks. Matthieu Cote, seriously you need to take a step back and listen - when killers aren't viable it hurts the game's diversity, overall experience and enjoyment of the game, without the killers, there is no game because of how the game is designed, killers need to be viable while ALSO being fun to play - it may be you don't agree with me, but I can definitely tell you that this hurting the game more than you're willing to acknowledge.

    @JoyfulLeader said:
    I also realized that the devs are probably running out of ideas for chapters now, just look at The Legion for example, they look generic, their power sucks, their backstory is pretty bland and edgy, hell I've see fans make better chapter ideas than chapter 10. We give them feedback for DBD, but the only changes I'm seeing is changes that the devs assume the community wants but we don't. It's pretty disappointing too, Dead by Daylight is my number 1 game I'm playing for over a year now and I didn't buy it just to be greeted with more disappointment. I don't really like the direction the game is going

    That doesn't surprise me, but there is actually more proof of this, if you look closely at the legion's base power, you'll seen that it's nothing more than a blatant rehashed ripoff of the spirits power, just with a few additions and alterations, it's quite obvious.

    They really should know better by know and be able to make better balance decisions when it comes to this, because implementing unwanted changes, that not only is uncalled and unwanted, but also hurts some of the currently weakest killers in the game - Doc and Freddy, is really a bad balance decision. Not going with the feedback and suggestions to fix the legion (other killers and perks ), is likewise not a good decision.

    Lets do some math here real quick, but unfortunately I don't have the actual numbers.
    But their internal test group, are not as experienced with the game as many of those who've participated in the PTB, the players know the game better in practive than the developers, sadly. But say they only have 10 people that do internal testing and they spend a month doing with that only being what they do, 8 hours a day, 22 days a month - thats 8 x 22 = 176 hours per member, so 176 x 10 = 1760 hours in total could've been spent in actual game time, but probrably isn't. Lets say there is a 100 people participating in the PTB who only put in half the hours and only does so for a week. (8 x 0.5) x 7 = 28 hours per member, so 28 x 100 = 2800 hours. This is already more than 1000 hours playtesting hours than their internal playtester could've spent on the testing, and if their amount of hours was the same amount per day only counted for a week, then the result would be very different but more comparable. But if so then the internal playtesting would only have 280 hours in total vs. 2800 hours, the community already has 10x as many playtesting hours combined. And they go with what their internal playtesters would recommend. Does that tell you something? It does for me, namely that the community can easily put more playtesting hours into it than BHVR can. Just trying to make it apparent that, they really should be less dismissive about what those in the PTB says, as they/we have put more hours in combined than they have. However, since I don't have the hard numbers I can only assume this, but still we are more players than they are devs. So it speaks for it self.

    I agree with you on this. I believe the dev team should focus more on what the community as a whole wants, nerfing, buffing, and removing isn't going to really help or change anything.

  • JoyfulLeaderJoyfulLeader Member Posts: 140

    I agree with you. In my opinion I think the dev team should put a bit of focus on what the community as a whole wants, because nerfing, buffing, and removing things isnt going to help much for the fan's sake.

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 210
    edited December 8

    It's rare when I find a thread I actually completely agree with, I usually find some gripes but I can't on this.

    But here is a defense for the Devs, when Freddy came out he was good but then the Survivor mains complained and he was nerfed before release and now he is crap. They don't want to do that again so they take our complaints with that grain of salt for that reason. When Spirit came out everyone was complaining about her but they didn't give in and they said play her some more and you'll see. They were right, but not completely right, she still needed buffs, not the biggest buffs we wanted but still great buffs that she desperately needed. Now everyone from the PTB gave opinions on how Legion needed to be buffed and as far as I can tell the only things they took from us was his bad vault and that the timer should go down during Mending. They listened but, they didn't listen enough.

    The Devs have reason to not give in to the community completely, they still need to listen to us more because we know what we're talking about but they are kinda listening. With that defense in mind I will say that the changes they made are not good enough and that there were several better things they could have chosen. What they did was awesome but that 99% ruined it and Legion still can't down people, any killer that is no threat to a No Mither is not a killer, they are a nuisance.

  • se05239se05239 Member Posts: 507

    @Crizpen said:
    Lastly, I would like to address the "we take player comments about new killers with a large grain of salt," comment from your last stream. That's awesome! So, why have a PTB? Our concerns/comments/suggestions aren't worth much, so why bother? Just release what you'll release and if it sucks, we'll go find other games. I own a marketing and sales contract company, and if I were ever to tell one of my clients - or their clients - that I take their input with "a large grain of salt," they would promptly cancel their contracts with me, and I wouldn't blame them in the least. There's a lot of money riding on my work, just as I'm sure there is on yours; so why alienate and insult your clients?

    If the demo you put on is any judge, a huge portion of the player base has played this game a whole lot more than the people working there. They understand how your changes actually effect the game, not on paper, but in practice. So, why tell them their opinions aren't worth consideration?

    I see their PTBs as how Bethesda saw the Fallout 76 "Beta".
    A way to get their playerbase excited by letting them try out the product.
    And suggestions that come from the player "testing" are just second or third priority. It's about measuring how much of a hit it'll be. How much dough there's to make from it. I might just be cynical but the developers are not doing a very good job at proving me wrong.

    And to answer your thread's name.. Yes, Legion is designed to be fun for survivors.
    Survivor fun has always been more important than killer efficiency in Dead by Daylight. That's why we will never get another Nurse or Hillbilly. That's why they say ON LIVESTREAM that if you wanna win, just play Nurse or Hillbilly.

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