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Hatch Stand Offs

Why cant the killer have to hit a skill check (Like DS) to pull the survivor out of the hatch instead of instagrab?

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  • ArsoulArsoul Member Posts: 321

    @Arsoul said:
    Why cant the killer have to hit a skill check (Like DS) to pull the survivor out of the hatch instead of instagrab?

    Or perhaps the hatch needs to be invisible to the killer

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 3,298

    @Arsoul said:
    Why cant the killer have to hit a skill check (Like DS) to pull the survivor out of the hatch instead of instagrab?

    It is like DS but like DS 9/10 times they could hit that skill check and you can argue that it would still be broken. When a Survivor misses that skill check it grants them another chase, if a Killer misses this one they escape but if he gets it they get a kill. Two huge ultimatums compared to the Survivor's just a prolonged game.

  • Zarr0chZarr0ch Member Posts: 237

    @HatCreature said:

    @Arsoul said:
    Why cant the killer have to hit a skill check (Like DS) to pull the survivor out of the hatch instead of instagrab?

    It is like DS but like DS 9/10 times they could hit that skill check and you can argue that it would still be broken. When a Survivor misses that skill check it grants them another chase, if a Killer misses this one they escape but if he gets it they get a kill. Two huge ultimatums compared to the Survivor's just a prolonged game.

    True True, although, at least the survivor is more likely to attempt to jump into the hatch and not stand there for 10mins

  • Rebel_RavenRebel_Raven Member Posts: 1,654
    Because they have to rework the hatch jump entirely to account for the skill check.

    Maybe make the killer hit you, go do a gen, or make the killer think you left?
  • ArsoulArsoul Member Posts: 321

    @Rebel_Raven said:
    Because they have to rework the hatch jump entirely to account for the skill check.

    Maybe make the killer hit you, go do a gen, or make the killer think you left?

    Perhaps instead of repeating the same thing in you see in every thread, perhaps we could look into solutions to the hatch stand off, we all know they happen, yes you can walk away but so many survivor don't.

    This idea is to get them to jump in, escape or caught, I dont care, as long as the game has a conclusion.

  • Rebel_RavenRebel_Raven Member Posts: 1,654

    @Arsoul said:

    @Rebel_Raven said:
    Because they have to rework the hatch jump entirely to account for the skill check.

    Maybe make the killer hit you, go do a gen, or make the killer think you left?

    Perhaps instead of repeating the same thing in you see in every thread, perhaps we could look into solutions to the hatch stand off, we all know they happen, yes you can walk away but so many survivor don't.

    This idea is to get them to jump in, escape or caught, I dont care, as long as the game has a conclusion.

    These things are repeated because they are our current solutions, imperfect as they are.

    Yeah, tunnel vision is why they generally don't walk away. It's why killers don't often switch targets mid chase, and why survivors will be fixated on one particular gen.

    I saw a killer mind game a survivor. can't remember who. They stood on the hatch, backed up, did a 360, then grabbed the survivor as they jumped in.

  • IncarnateIncarnate Member Posts: 634

    The hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, so is two exits. Only one exit is necessary.

  • IncarnateIncarnate Member Posts: 634

    @Rebel_Raven said:

    @Incarnate said:
    The hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, so is two exits. Only one exit is necessary.

    I gotta disagree. Two exits prevent a killer with NOED from just standing at the gate controls, or gate, swatting people down.
    One exit is just a hell of a bottle neck.

    The hatch could have been done better, but without it, the 4th survivor, the last one left would have next to no chance to survive. The killer would not have much of a challenge.
    Push comes to shove, a survivor will just hide, and troll the killer since they feel cornered otherwise.
    But hey, you can grab people jumping into the hatch, prevent 2 generators from getting done, or slug the last 2. That should take care of most encounters.

    Yeah? The thing is though NOED, is ONLY necessary because there are two exits.
    Two exits is also a problem because the killer cannot be at two places at once, and with two exits it's way more likely everyone escapes if no one at that point has been sacrificed. The two exits is also a problem.

    Still, the hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, especially also because the only way to avoid it is what you just explained, and it sucks to be slugged. In regards to grabbing, that requires you to be able to actually grab, which is why there are stand offs in the first place.

  • Rebel_RavenRebel_Raven Member Posts: 1,654
    Incarnate said:

    @Rebel_Raven said:

    @Incarnate said:
    The hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, so is two exits. Only one exit is necessary.

    I gotta disagree. Two exits prevent a killer with NOED from just standing at the gate controls, or gate, swatting people down.
    One exit is just a hell of a bottle neck.

    The hatch could have been done better, but without it, the 4th survivor, the last one left would have next to no chance to survive. The killer would not have much of a challenge.
    Push comes to shove, a survivor will just hide, and troll the killer since they feel cornered otherwise.
    But hey, you can grab people jumping into the hatch, prevent 2 generators from getting done, or slug the last 2. That should take care of most encounters.

    Yeah? The thing is though NOED, is ONLY necessary because there are two exits.
    Two exits is also a problem because the killer cannot be at two places at once, and with two exits it's way more likely everyone escapes if no one at that point has been sacrificed. The two exits is also a problem.

    Still, the hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, especially also because the only way to avoid it is what you just explained, and it sucks to be slugged. In regards to grabbing, that requires you to be able to actually grab, which is why there are stand offs in the first place.

    I must disagree once again.

    If you will, consider your average chase. 
    You hit a survivor. They get a speed boost. You wipe your blade, then resume the chase.
    How far do they usually get? 
    That distance from the escape point is basically a guaranteed escape. 
    Now lets factor in the second necessary hit to down a healthy survivor which means catching up, and hitting them again.
    That distance from the escape point is still pretty guaranteed. They flop, and if that doesn't get them out, the crawling while you wipe your blade again just might. 

    This also applies to the hatch, basically. 

    And them there's dead hard which can extend the chase, or DS which can also make a longer chase.
    Or a survivor using Lithe or Balanced Landing. I've even seen some use sprint burst as a poor mans dead hard.

    That is a large area of safety around the escape points.

    NOED would still be incredibly useful even with one exit.
    With just one exit a killer can basically hold the game hostage by standing at the lever. Especially with NOED to help prevent the gate from opening which is like an even worse hatch standoff. 
    Infact the killer can just go to the controls and use that as their only objective to guard.
    Even with current hatch mechanics it will not open until there is 1 survivor left alive (or they use a key) so unless 3 get killed the hatch will not open.

    The hatch is far from perfect, I agree, but it's almost always the killers fault it opens. 

    Being slugged does suck. If it keeps happening I'm pretty sure there are 1 or 2 perks that let you fight slugging. 

    As for the grab, you just gotta fake them out. Easier said than done, sure, but possible. 
  • IncarnateIncarnate Member Posts: 634

    @Rebel_Raven said:
    Incarnate said:

    @Rebel_Raven said:

     @Incarnate said:
    

    The hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, so is two exits. Only one exit is necessary.

    I gotta disagree. Two exits prevent a killer with NOED from just standing at the gate controls, or gate, swatting people down. 
    

    One exit is just a hell of a bottle neck.

    The hatch could have been done better, but without it, the 4th survivor, the last one left would have next to no chance to survive.  The killer would not have much of a challenge.
    

    Push comes to shove, a survivor will just hide, and troll the killer since they feel cornered otherwise.

    But hey, you can grab people jumping into the hatch, prevent 2 generators from getting done, or slug the last 2. That should take care of most encounters.

    Yeah? The thing is though NOED, is ONLY necessary because there are two exits.

    Two exits is also a problem because the killer cannot be at two places at once, and with two exits it's way more likely everyone escapes if no one at that point has been sacrificed. The two exits is also a problem.

    Still, the hatch is a really bad gameplay mechanic, especially also because the only way to avoid it is what you just explained, and it sucks to be slugged. In regards to grabbing, that requires you to be able to actually grab, which is why there are stand offs in the first place.

    I must disagree once again.

    If you will, consider your average chase. 
    You hit a survivor. They get a speed boost. You wipe your blade, then resume the chase.
    How far do they usually get? 
    That distance from the escape point is basically a guaranteed escape. 
    Now lets factor in the second necessary hit to down a healthy survivor which means catching up, and hitting them again.
    That distance from the escape point is still pretty guaranteed. They flop, and if that doesn't get them out, the crawling while you wipe your blade again just might. 

    This also applies to the hatch, basically. 

    And them there's dead hard which can extend the chase, or DS which can also make a longer chase.
    Or a survivor using Lithe or Balanced Landing. I've even seen some use sprint burst as a poor mans dead hard.

    That is a large area of safety around the escape points.

    NOED would still be incredibly useful even with one exit.
    With just one exit a killer can basically hold the game hostage by standing at the lever. Especially with NOED to help prevent the gate from opening which is like an even worse hatch standoff. 
    Infact the killer can just go to the controls and use that as their only objective to guard.
    Even with current hatch mechanics it will not open until there is 1 survivor left alive (or they use a key) so unless 3 get killed the hatch will not open.

    The hatch is far from perfect, I agree, but it's almost always the killers fault it opens. 

    Being slugged does suck. If it keeps happening I'm pretty sure there are 1 or 2 perks that let you fight slugging. 

    As for the grab, you just gotta fake them out. Easier said than done, sure, but possible. 

    Considering the average survival rate, that is approximately two survivors out four, with two exits and a hatch
    So with one exit and one hatch that could still be two as both can take a hit before going down and can block a hit from each, and even if one goes down the other one can still escape. With two exits and a hatch, it's more than likely everyone will escape if everyone is still standing at the time the gates are opened. WHY? Well as I said the killer can only be at one place at one time, so if the killer chasing one or two to one exit then the other rest will just go to the other exit - basically at this point the killer could just as well accept the loss.

    If they removed one exit I wouldn't mind they made NOED not usable for those matches where there is only one exit.

    They could easily fix the lever issue, have more than one lever, one at the control panel near the exit and another one further away from there (a random location), this way the killer cannot hold the game hostage.

    There is only two, and one is a onetime use and the other makes you be always injured.

    The hatch won't even spawn unless certain requirements are met:
    The Hatch will become visible ("spawn") whenever the number of fully repaired generators exceeds the number of living Survivors by 1

    So two exits and a hatch, is a problem. One exit and a hatch, isn't a problem, only if NOED is in play, otherwise it can easily be made so it won't be a problem.

    Say there was one exit and one hatch, two control levers where only one needs to be pulled/activated, one will be at the control panel near the exit the other one at a random location further away from the exit. Say the killer decides to hard camp at the exits when all generators are repaired and there are still two survivors left. Guess what? That would've been a really bad move to hard camp the exit, because now both victims will now become survivors, because both can endure at least one hit, where the killer is not big enough to block the entire gate, and the killer won't be fast enough to strike twice to down a victim, only one who could somehow apply exposes status on at least one could ensure a down, otherwise both would survive. Lets take another example with the same parameters, so the killer has succesfully found both victims near the other control panel and the exit has been opened, and the victims both begins to run and the killer gives chase. Here both of the victims take a hit for each other (blocking the killers hit) while continuing to run - the killer might be successfull in downing one but highly unlikely if they do this strategy. Only if the killer could apply exposed status would the killer be sure of a down, otherwise both would also escape.

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 10,206

    @Arsoul said:
    Why cant the killer have to hit a skill check (Like DS) to pull the survivor out of the hatch instead of instagrab?

    He already has to hit M1 at the correct time, there is no time for a skillcheck or will the survivor hover in the air until the skillchecks goes through?

  • CymerCymer Member Posts: 942

    My issue with the hatch is the follow:
    It's free for every survivor. It takes no skill to jump the hatch.
    If the killer just would get the ability to instadown and mori one survivor when all gens are powered, we all call it unfair (see all the discussion around NOED ect.) But the hatch don't even need a perkslot and it offers no counterplay, only unfavorable standoffs...
    I would rather be able to close the hatch as a killer or "cleanse" the hatch as a survivor for the escape (or just bring a key :p )

  • ArsoulArsoul Member Posts: 321

    @Carpemortum said:
    Simple hatch standoff solution to save 20 minutes.

    Killer: hit them and let them leave. You get bp, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game. 

    Survivor: if they camp it, go do gens. You get bp for those still btw.  -OR- just jump, and if they grab you, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game.

    Copy and paste answer yet again. I see you missed the entire point saying that to many people DONT go and do the generators etc. This would speed up the game for all and free the killer up to make a new lobby.
    But, copy and paste answers seem to be the way to go to get more posts

  • CornChipCornChip Member Posts: 540

    @Carpemortum said:
    Simple hatch standoff solution to save 20 minutes.

    Killer: hit them and let them leave. You get bp, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game. 

    Survivor: if they camp it, go do gens. You get bp for those still btw.  -OR- just jump, and if they grab you, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game.

  • ArsoulArsoul Member Posts: 321

    @CornChip said:

    @Carpemortum said:
    Simple hatch standoff solution to save 20 minutes.

    Killer: hit them and let them leave. You get bp, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game. 

    Survivor: if they camp it, go do gens. You get bp for those still btw.  -OR- just jump, and if they grab you, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game.

  • CornChipCornChip Member Posts: 540

    @Arsoul said:

    @CornChip said:

    @Carpemortum said:
    Simple hatch standoff solution to save 20 minutes.

    Killer: hit them and let them leave. You get bp, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game. 

    Survivor: if they camp it, go do gens. You get bp for those still btw.  -OR- just jump, and if they grab you, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game.

  • ReneAenslandReneAensland Member Posts: 838

    @Arsoul said:

    @Rebel_Raven said:
    Because they have to rework the hatch jump entirely to account for the skill check.

    Maybe make the killer hit you, go do a gen, or make the killer think you left?

    Perhaps instead of repeating the same thing in you see in every thread, perhaps we could look into solutions to the hatch stand off, we all know they happen, yes you can walk away but so many survivor don't.

    This idea is to get them to jump in, escape or caught, I dont care, as long as the game has a conclusion.

    Making the Hatch invisible to the killer isn't a [BAD WORD] balanced solution.
    It's the same topic, different day.

  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,434
    Arsoul said:

    Why cant the killer have to hit a skill check (Like DS) to pull the survivor out of the hatch instead of instagrab?

    LOL
  • Bravo0413Bravo0413 Member Posts: 3,434
    But anyways... the killer gameplay is supposed to be completely different from the survivor gameplay... this is supposed to encourage players to play both sides... if you're looking for advice-----> the survivor owns the hatch theres nothing that the killer can do just wait for them to hit you and jump in............. unless it's a tombstone Myers then play super stealthy and wait for your best opportunity 
  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277
    edited December 2018

    Or just get rid of the hatch entirely and have one exit gate randomly open when 1 survivor is left. Or get rid of the hatch and DON'T have an exit open and the last survivor will get killed like they should because they didn't finish the gens.

  • pallet_eaterpallet_eater Member Posts: 21

    Here is my thoughts: No survivors should be able to stand in the face of a killer and feel safe.

  • SnakeSound222SnakeSound222 Member Posts: 3,272
    edited December 2018

    Ever heard of doing gens or even accepting your death? You're not entitled to the Hatch. Sorry that you can't have your free escape. Maybe you should've done better while your allies were still alive.

    The hatch closing idea from the first version of the PTB for patch 2.0.0 was good. Killer stomps on the Hatch to close it and Survivor has repair a gen to reopen it. I would just add a base Left Behind effect to the Survivor so they aren't bored to death holding M1 and I would let the Killer permanently read the Survivor's aura at an unlimited range after X seconds of not doing gens so the Survivor can't get salty and take the game hostage.

  • CarpemortumCarpemortum Member Posts: 4,510
    edited December 2018
    Arsoul said:

    @Carpemortum said:
    Simple hatch standoff solution to save 20 minutes.

    Killer: hit them and let them leave. You get bp, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game. 

    Survivor: if they camp it, go do gens. You get bp for those still btw.  -OR- just jump, and if they grab you, its INSTANTLY over and you can go to the next game.

    Copy and paste answer yet again. I see you missed the entire point saying that to many people DONT go and do the generators etc. This would speed up the game for all and free the killer up to make a new lobby.
    But, copy and paste answers seem to be the way to go to get more posts

    Yet again? I've said this twice. And it's a very viable, easy solution if you're not a stubborn ass.
  • alivebydeadightalivebydeadight Member Posts: 1,559

    im sorry but are you a survivor main, cause this sound really salty to the point salt is literally coming out of my computer

  • redsopine01redsopine01 Member Posts: 1,269
    Ive seen old ptb where they tried the hatch closing mechanic and I think there's a solution to it if both the killer and survivor are on the hatch for over a minute (the standoff) then the killer can close the hatch in a animation that takes 10 seconds (plenty of time for a survivor to get away and hide) while it might extend the game once the hatch closes it can be reopend in a ten second animation if the killer is not near the hatch when it starts But they get a notification on it giving a chance to catch you (note insidious will not work here)
  • ArsoulArsoul Member Posts: 321

    @SnakeSound222 said:

    Ever heard of doing gens or even accepting your death? You're not entitled to the Hatch. Sorry that you can't have your free escape. Maybe you should've done better while your allies were still alive.

    The hatch closing idea from the first version of the PTB for patch 2.0.0 was good. Killer stomps on the Hatch to close it and Survivor has repair a gen to reopen it. I would just add a base Left Behind effect to the Survivor so they aren't bored to death holding M1 and I would let the Killer permanently read the Survivor's aura at an unlimited range after X seconds of not doing gens so the Survivor can't get salty and take the game hostage.

    Your not entitled to 4 kills either.
    Nothing wrong with the hatch closing thing, I just want SOMETHING to be done. Survivors need a chance to escape but it doesnt need to be handed to them

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