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This game is unfair and the data prove it

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  • fixdeadhardfixdeadhard Member Posts: 134

    What you as 1 person want has nothing to do with what the game should be and what the average population wants. These things i mentioned is part of basic human psychology. Its just a fact how close the experience of having fun is correlated to having a challenge, winning and feeling of fairness (aka balance). For every 1 person like you there are 100 others that want balance.

  • NeyarNeyar Member Posts: 63

    You can't have a balanced, asymmetrical game.

    Let's say, I can perfectly assess every player's skill level: 500 being the lowest skill and 1900 being the highest, just to have numbers.

    The most challenging game I can give a 1900 killer is to give them a lobby of four 1900 survivors.

    The most challenging game I can give a 1900 survivor is to give them a 1900 killer and three teammates who are 500. Better teammates only make the game easier for the one we're focusing on.

    These can't be the same match.

    This doesn't even take into account perks, abilities, or even the game mechanics. There just isn't a single match that presents a 'balanced' game for both sides. Not competitively at least, which is likely why people generally preferred the days before MMR.

  • SonzaishinaiSonzaishinai Member Posts: 6,873

    So you are basing this of this one page of stats that includes absolutely everybody while the devs who made the changes have litterally all the stats

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,739

    Nope.

    Those numbers mean nothing.

    Look at the 'worst' killer in the game and you'll probably be able to guess why.

    They are being thrown off completely by newer players. The devs have their own internal numbers, which demonstrated to them that kill rates weren't high enough.

  • badrepobadrepo Member Posts: 93

    You lose credibility when you say things like that. In 2016 killers took 5 mins to vault a window while survivors would fast vault no matter the angle or distance. In 2016 the game was heavily survivor sided

  • CodeDBCodeDB Member Posts: 148

    Has it? Where are you seeing these numbers?

    From scouring the internet for when the developers released official stats, this is what I found

    2019 - 56.83%

    2020 - 56.21%

    July-Sept. 2021 - 53.83%

    Dec. 2021 - Jan. 2022 - 55.02%*

    *- no aggregate number released so this is the median of the killer percentages given


    From everything I've seen, kill rates have floated around the 55% mark. Did I miss a release information or are you going off your intuition here?

    I should point out, I obviously don't agree with the original post and don't think any major changes should be based off simplistic kill rate numbers but I have a genuine interest in stats and would love to see them.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,739

    Unfortunately we'll likely never see those numbers.

    The gross numbers were really just there for funzies - and it's frustrating how many people take them as any sort of reliable balance metric.

  • th3syst3mth3syst3m Member Posts: 125

    Old data, imagine what it looks like now lol. They'll never show current stats.

  • CrowmanCrowman Member Posts: 5,977

    The problem is the data you are sharing was posted right around the time MMR went live meaning that all the data at that point was pre-mmr. And everyone knows that the rank system favored killers, because it was too easy to rank up.

    While we haven't seen data from post-mmr release, it's safe to say that MMR really brought down the kill rate for killers.

  • Sava18Sava18 Member Posts: 654

    Low mmr in a nut shell. I really don't know how you're supposed to climb out of low mmr when this happens everygame. I am a killer main but happened to my friend every game pre patch.

  • StarLostStarLost Member Posts: 6,739

    I don't see why not.

    I'd love to have a dataset to play with.

    The problem with stats though is that they are incredibly open to manipulation and interpretation.

  • Sava18Sava18 Member Posts: 654

    These stats tell nothing, as survivors in low mmr have no idea how to use their resources correctly or even loop so low mmr ends up extremely killer sided. Which is quite literally impossible to fix as this game first starting out is super killer sided. And you never ever balance around low mmr in any game.

  • pseudechispseudechis Member Posts: 2,865
    edited August 11

    Blanket percentages say very little, its a PR release nothing more.

    Watching joe public try to wield stats is like watching a toddler wield a shotgun.

  • RonMan32RonMan32 Member Posts: 396

    The problem with balancing this game not only come simply from it being an asymmetric 4v1. As if that wasn't hard enough it has to be balanced both around solo queue and 4 people in a discord call. Obviously if all 4 people are communicating well AND are good at the game the killer is going to have a worse time than when all 4 queued individually and aren't able to communicate and they have a fresh install Dwight.

    So keeping that in mind, this close to 50% is impressive. This data doesn't account for what games are and aren't solo queue. Solo queue does need a buff. Maybe more emotes that are actually labeled to mean different things instead of just the point and come here gesture. Maybe give people who are queued by themselves more aura information. So on.

    The way I see it is if you have 5 people of equal skill, but the survivors are not communicating the killer should get a 2k most of the time and 4ks happen every now and again. If you have 5 people of equal skill and all 4 survivors queued together and are tryharding callouts the killer should almost NEVER get a 4k and always get at least 1, ALWAYS. And between these two the average should be as close to a 50% kill rate. I'd argue that this is very close to being true. Note: Again, this is speaking of magical matches where the killer is at a skill level where every encounter is a very close advantage for each with almost just luck playing into who comes out on top. Loops last just long enough for a gen to pop or some other stuff to get done. But not so long that the first down is done well after the 2nd gen pops. So on. Pressure spread perfectly evenly and people getting shoved on hooks at the perfect rate for a 2k.

    Obviously the skill based matchmaking in this game doesn't work so these ideal outcomes don't happen as often because the ideal conditions aren't met. I often play with 3 other people in a discord call. None of us are great at the game but I'd say a little over half of the time we get 3 or 4k'd.

    All in all this post seems to be survivor mains with a lack of perspective complaining. It is SO close to 50%. Most games are solo queue with the survivor team not even close to their true potential if they were communicating.

    The reality is killers are supposed to be amazing in 1v1s. Obviously. The killer is designed to get them eventually. So the only thing you have against them is teamwork. Without being able to communicate finding the perfect balance between doing gens and going for saves isn't easy. The advantage of teamwork is hindered. So more than likely 2 of you are going to die.

    The devs need to buff solo queue, otherwise they're doing a very impressive if obviously flawed job of keeping the game balanced.

  • RonMan32RonMan32 Member Posts: 396

    If the killer is as skillful as killer as you are at survivor, he beats you in 1v1 obviously. But you should be able to loop him for a decent chunk of time such that your teammates could have gotten gens and healing done. If you're keeping a killer looped all game the killer is less skillful than you and it wasn't a fair match, Obviously MMR can't be perfect so you'll get and deserve those hard wins. But you shouldn't be able to do this to a killer as skillful as you. In that case your team should still at least get 2 people out. That's the equal chance of winning. Each survivor has a 50% of escape and the team should have a near 100% chance of getting at least 1 person out. But 2 people are likely to lose. In this ideal situation the killer always "wins" depending on if you do it half glass full or half empty. Same with looking at the survivor team. The always "win". But an individual survivor can only win half the time in that case. If you want for it to be possible that a skillful killer could get 0 kills against 4 solo queue survivors of equal skill than you don't understand what balance should mean in asymmetric games.

  • RonMan32RonMan32 Member Posts: 396

    DCs SHOULD be excluded. If someone DCs early you are at a disadvantage. That sucks and they should add bots to replace them but you don't balance a game like this around games where things were unbalanced due to something out of the devs control. If someone DCs early you're likely to lose. Don't blame the game or the killer, blame the guy that DC'd.

    It would be nice if they punished DCs more. Like adding extra matchmaking things where if you're someone who DCs a lot you get matched with fellow jerks who do the same and high level killers that will wipe. If you DC more than 7 times in one week period you should have a 5 minute wait on every game you queue for, for a month. Resetting the countdown if you keep doing it. Maybe make these people earn blood points at a -0.5% per score when they're on a DC streak.

  • Thusly_BonedThusly_Boned Member Posts: 1,974

    I disagree a bit. Because it's a horror game where (as a surv) are supposed to be in an against the odds scenario against a powerful force. The odds shouldn't be overwhelmingly against you, but I feel like they should be against you. And it feels more rewarding that way, imo. And the odds of all the team getting out should be pretty long. Like a horror movie.

    Death shouldn't be a near certainty but it should be unlikely. It feels thematically appropriate, whereas a 50:50 feels like what you would want and expect from a symmetrical game, but that's not what DBD is.

    I don't know what numbers BHVR are shooting for, but 60/40 is what I would have in mind.

    Being a "punching bag" would be more like ~80/20, imo. We're nowhere near that.

  • PBsamichShoePBsamichShoe Member Posts: 314

    I mean the fact that you can find tons of different killer streamers who post videos about 50 or even 100 win streak games on a variety of or all killers meanwhile the only survivor to ever post a long win streak was noob3 at like a 50+ win streak should say enough.

    Dowsey did this video on the greatest moments in dbd and they were all killer win streaks with an honorable mention to noob at the end lol

    Game's always favored killer but now its just easier than ever.

    I remember sweating my balls off for a 4k back in 2020, now its straight up boring how easy it is.

  • OrangeBearOrangeBear Member Posts: 575

    The devs actually want an average of 2.4 kills in a match which means 60%. They concluded this based on research that shows most killer players would be satisfied with that number.

  • VeinslayVeinslay Member Posts: 1,609

    Lmao win streaks like this aren't even a thing since MMR was introduced unless dude is tanking his MMR offstream, which I actually wouldn't doubt. I almost never dodge and try to win and I get paired against sweat teams every night while guys like OhTofu are out there dumpstering babies every night live on Twitch

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 5,315

    I want survivors to get some help too. Especially against camping and tunneling.

    But I am not sure if this data here is a good argument for survivor buffs. It's older now, and the devs said that kill rates weren't as high as they wanted it to be.

    Problem is just that they didn't only buff killers good and fair gameplay strategies. They also kept unchanged, and to an extent even buffed, their cheap and unfair strategies, which are tunneling and camping.

    I think current queue times are the better argument to be made here. Obviously there is something with the survivor role that is not making the role attractive enough for enough players since the 6.1.0 patch. And I would definitely start with taking a look at camping and tunneling. Game would be in the best state it's ever been if those strategies were just nerfed properly.

  • Chaos999Chaos999 Member Posts: 716

    When Brazil stomps some D tier team during quarters on soccer it isn't really fair either.

    Fairnes doesn't mean much on this context.

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