No Mither rework

EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653
edited December 2018 in Balance feedback
No Mither is a perk useful only to make number, ignored by all survivors because it always imposes a huge sacrifice and offers a purely situational advantage, indeed only hypothetical, since the current mechanics makes it clear to the killer that the survivor owns it, and therefore they will NEVER leave that opponent to bleed to the ground. By eliminating a state of health permanently, it helps hugely the killer, halving the number of shots needed to sacrifice a survivor, and no one is willing to pay such a high price without a really tempting reward.

To make this perk attractive, we need to act on two fronts:
1) hide the perk to the killer;
2) increase the stealth of the survivor.
The killer that meets for the first time a wounded survivor or a survivor whose grunts are reduced and who does not leave pools of blood, immediately realizes that their victim runs No Mither, and under no circumstances will allow them to use it. The killer must ignore that perk's existence and behave normally, so the broken state must only apply since the first wound is inflicted and bleeding and moans must be activated and deactivated at will, to help the stealth of the survivor until they are not seen, but to make them appear as a normal opponent during every chase. Last but not least, who runs No Mither needs a better audio concealment.

NO MITHER: When you are injured or reduced in Dying State, you are affected by the Broken Status Effect for the rest of the Trial.
Press the Active Ability button to:
stop leaving pools of Blood and reduce the grunts of pain when injured by the 50/75/100%;
restore the normal bleeding and grunts.
Grants the ability to fully recover from the Dying State.

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Comments

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 7,351

    @xllxENIGMAxllx said:
    I like how no mither is but i want a buff. Simply add a survival BP bonus and i'm happy.

    True, me too

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653
    edited January 6

    @xllxENIGMAxllx @Master A bonus for what? Because you run it? Because you survive even with that penalty? Don't you find unfair that every killer knows you are running it and consequently doesn't leave you on the ground, making it useless?

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 7,351

    @Entità said:
    @xllxENIGMAxllx @Master A bonus for what? Because you run it? Because you survive even with that penalty? Don't you find unfair that every killer knows you are running it and consequently doesn't leave you on the ground, making it useless?

    No im fine with a challenge mode, but I would like to get extra BP just like the challenge addons for billy/LF

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653

    @Master said:

    @Entità said:
    @xllxENIGMAxllx @Master A bonus for what? Because you run it? Because you survive even with that penalty? Don't you find unfair that every killer knows you are running it and consequently doesn't leave you on the ground, making it useless?

    No im fine with a challenge mode, but I would like to get extra BP just like the challenge addons for billy/LF

    In my vocabulary, "challenge" means "difficult activity, which can succeed or fail based on my talent": in this case, as the killer understands that you use No Mither because a) they meet you for the first time already injured and b) they see no traces of blood behind you, only if they are an idiot, they will leave you on the ground and give you the chance to get up again, so where would the survivor's merit be? It all depends on whether the killer is alert or idiot. "Perk" means "advantage", not "randomness", in fact no one uses it. :(

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 7,351

    @Entità said:

    @Master said:

    @Entità said:
    @xllxENIGMAxllx @Master A bonus for what? Because you run it? Because you survive even with that penalty? Don't you find unfair that every killer knows you are running it and consequently doesn't leave you on the ground, making it useless?

    No im fine with a challenge mode, but I would like to get extra BP just like the challenge addons for billy/LF

    In my vocabulary, "challenge" means "difficult activity, which can succeed or fail based on my talent": in this case, as the killer understands that you use No Mither because a) they meet you for the first time already injured and b) they see no traces of blood behind you, only if they are an idiot, they will leave you on the ground and give you the chance to get up again, so where would the survivor's merit be? It all depends on whether the killer is alert or idiot. "Perk" means "advantage", not "randomness", in fact no one uses it. :(

    Well you could say the same about the challenge addons I mentioned and yet they exist :wink:

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653
    edited January 6

    @Master said:

    @Entità said:

    @Master said:

    @Entità said:
    @xllxENIGMAxllx @Master A bonus for what? Because you run it? Because you survive even with that penalty? Don't you find unfair that every killer knows you are running it and consequently doesn't leave you on the ground, making it useless?

    No im fine with a challenge mode, but I would like to get extra BP just like the challenge addons for billy/LF

    In my vocabulary, "challenge" means "difficult activity, which can succeed or fail based on my talent": in this case, as the killer understands that you use No Mither because a) they meet you for the first time already injured and b) they see no traces of blood behind you, only if they are an idiot, they will leave you on the ground and give you the chance to get up again, so where would the survivor's merit be? It all depends on whether the killer is alert or idiot. "Perk" means "advantage", not "randomness", in fact no one uses it. :(

    Well you could say the same about the challenge addons I mentioned and yet they exist :wink:

    Are there Billy's or Bubba's add-ons whose effects don't depend on the killer's skill, but on how much idiot the survivors are? O.o

  • MasterMaster Member Posts: 7,351

    @Entità said:

    @Master said:

    @Entità said:

    @Master said:

    @Entità said:
    @xllxENIGMAxllx @Master A bonus for what? Because you run it? Because you survive even with that penalty? Don't you find unfair that every killer knows you are running it and consequently doesn't leave you on the ground, making it useless?

    No im fine with a challenge mode, but I would like to get extra BP just like the challenge addons for billy/LF

    In my vocabulary, "challenge" means "difficult activity, which can succeed or fail based on my talent": in this case, as the killer understands that you use No Mither because a) they meet you for the first time already injured and b) they see no traces of blood behind you, only if they are an idiot, they will leave you on the ground and give you the chance to get up again, so where would the survivor's merit be? It all depends on whether the killer is alert or idiot. "Perk" means "advantage", not "randomness", in fact no one uses it. :(

    Well you could say the same about the challenge addons I mentioned and yet they exist :wink:

    Are there Billy's or Bubba's add-ons whose effects don't depend on the killer's skill, but on how much idiot the survivors are? O.o

    Yes, the addons that turn the chainsaw into a non-one hit weapon

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653
    Master said:

    @Entità said:

    @Master said:

    @Entità said:

    @Master said:

    @Entità said:
    @xllxENIGMAxllx @Master A bonus for what? Because you run it? Because you survive even with that penalty? Don't you find unfair that every killer knows you are running it and consequently doesn't leave you on the ground, making it useless?

    No im fine with a challenge mode, but I would like to get extra BP just like the challenge addons for billy/LF

    In my vocabulary, "challenge" means "difficult activity, which can succeed or fail based on my talent": in this case, as the killer understands that you use No Mither because a) they meet you for the first time already injured and b) they see no traces of blood behind you, only if they are an idiot, they will leave you on the ground and give you the chance to get up again, so where would the survivor's merit be? It all depends on whether the killer is alert or idiot. "Perk" means "advantage", not "randomness", in fact no one uses it. :(

    Well you could say the same about the challenge addons I mentioned and yet they exist :wink:

    Are there Billy's or Bubba's add-ons whose effects don't depend on the killer's skill, but on how much idiot the survivors are? O.o

    Yes, the addons that turn the chainsaw into a non-one hit weapon

     If Billy's or Bubba's player is good, they don't need insta-downs to win: it depends on killer's skill.
  • xllxENIGMAxllxxllxENIGMAxllx Member Posts: 40

    No Mither is good as it is you don't like that perk we get it but he shouldn't be rework only buffed. A survival BP bonus is enough for the risk you take.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653
    edited January 7

    No Mither is good as it is you don't like that perk we get it but he shouldn't be rework only buffed. A survival BP bonus is enough for the risk you take.

     It's not what I like or not: it's the fact the killer understands that you use No Mither because a) they meet you for the first time already injured and b) they see no traces of blood behind you, then only if they are an idiot, they will leave you on the ground and give you the chance to get up again, so where would the survivor's merit be? It all depends on whether the killer is alert or idiot. "Perk" means "advantage", not "randomness", in fact no one uses it. :(
  • xllxENIGMAxllxxllxENIGMAxllx Member Posts: 40

    @Entità said:
    xllxENIGMAxllx said:

    No Mither is good as it is you don't like that perk we get it but he shouldn't be rework only buffed. A survival BP bonus is enough for the risk you take.

     It's not what I like or not: it's the fact the killer understands that you use No Mither because a) they meet you for the first time already injured and b) they see no traces of blood behind you, then only if they are an idiot, they will leave you on the ground and give you the chance to get up again, so where would the survivor's merit be? It all depends on whether the killer is alert or idiot. "Perk" means "advantage", not "randomness", in fact no one uses it. :(

    I'm gonna give an example with dead hard if a killer know you have it a good killer will always counter it no matter what you do is kind of the same with NM. No mither is underated he is one of the rarest perk that can be combined with almost everything except SC.

    Here some build that is viable to give a real visibility to why that perk is not that bad.

    (No Mither - Saboteur - empathy - breakdown) run this in group.
    (No Mither - Technician - quick & quiet - lightweight) sneaky build can also try dance with me instead of lightweight.
    (No Mither - Resiliance - Stake out - Leader) or (No Mither - Resiliance - This is not happening - Stake out ) for gen rush.

    You get the idea i really like this perk and only want a buff is for BP reward. I understand that this perk give a disadvantage but some build can make very powerful.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 238

    No Mither is hard mode, it's not meant to be useful. The perk doesn't need to be made more attractive. The attractiveness itself lies in the disadvantages you have to deal with.

    If you want to kind of play No Mither but don't like that it isn't hidden to the killer, simply stay hurted the entire game after the killer hit you the first time.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653

    No Mither is hard mode, it's not meant to be useful. The perk doesn't need to be made more attractive. The attractiveness itself lies in the disadvantages you have to deal with.

    If you want to kind of play No Mither but don't like that it isn't hidden to the killer, simply stay hurted the entire game after the killer hit you the first time.

    Exactly, you don't need a perk to play that way.

    @xllxenigmaxllx Doesn't Unbreakable fit with your plans? What's the added value of No Mither, when the killer knows you have it and won't slug you?
  • Aari_Piggy66Aari_Piggy66 Member Posts: 688
    Entità said:
    No Mither is a perk useful only to make number, ignored by all survivors because it always imposes a huge sacrifice and offers a purely situational advantage, indeed only hypothetical, since the current mechanics makes it clear to the killer that the survivor owns it, and therefore they will NEVER leave that opponent to bleed to the ground. By eliminating a state of health permanently, it helps hugely the killer, halving the number of shots needed to sacrifice a survivor, and no one is willing to pay such a high price without a really tempting reward.

    To make this perk attractive, we need to act on two fronts:
    1) hide the perk to the killer;
    2) increase the stealth of the survivor.
    The killer that meets for the first time a wounded survivor or a survivor whose grunts are reduced and who does not leave pools of blood, immediately realizes that their victim runs No Mither, and under no circumstances will allow them to use it. The killer must ignore that perk's existence and behave normally, so the broken state must only apply since the first wound is inflicted and bleeding and moans must be activated and deactivated at will, to help the stealth of the survivor until they are not seen, but to make them appear as a normal opponent during every chase. Last but not least, who runs No Mither needs a better audio concealment.

    NO MITHER: When you are injured or reduced in Dying State, you are affected by the Broken Status Effect for the rest of the Trial.
    Press the Active Ability button to:
    stop leaving pools of Blood and reduce the grunts of pain when injured by the 50/75/100%;
    restore the normal bleeding and grunts.
    Grants the ability to fully recover from the Dying State.

    It seems like a less of a buff and more of a nuisance.

    I constantly have to keep on activating it off and on
  • xllxENIGMAxllxxllxENIGMAxllx Member Posts: 40

    @Entità yes tenacity and unbreakable is also viable too. but like i say there is multiple build you can do (sneaky - gen rush etc...)

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653
    @Aari_Piggy66 This rework requires the survivor to be clever and pay attention to all the circumstances: it's a tactical perk.

    @xllxENIGMAxllx Your builds are very interesting and useful in a whole. Nevertheless, I don't understand what kind of advantage No Mither gives you, when your state highlights you have it and you'll have no chances to fully recover. In the same builds, Unbreakable could be better.
  • PolarBearPolarBear Member Posts: 264
    edited January 13

    They should just turn the injured music off while using no mither.

  • HURRI_KAINHURRI_KAIN Member Posts: 45

    I think No Mither does need a rework, I would make it so the killer doesn't see who has No Mither, and I would make it so the player using No Mither starts the match with full health. These two simple changes would make No Mither a viable perk. As far as requesting BP increase for using No Mither, I think that is a good idea, I also think Sabo should have a BP increase, NM is broken as is, and Sabo is useless with the respawn mechanic. Noone is talking about how all killers use BBQ and it's super powerful with a huge BP increase and only recently was nerfed with the closet change.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 238

    @HURRI_KAIN said:
    I think No Mither does need a rework, I would make it so the killer doesn't see who has No Mither, and I would make it so the player using No Mither starts the match with full health. These two simple changes would make No Mither a viable perk.

    No Mither is hard mode, it is not supposed to be a useful perk. If players don't like the disadvantages of No Mither (in other words: they don't want to play hard mode), they can simply stay in hurt mode and use Unbreakable.

  • powerbatspowerbats Member Posts: 5,530

    The changes i'd like to see in no particular order.

    1. You don't start the trial in the injured state like currently but have the exposed effect.

    2. Thanatobia isn't triggered on you until the 1st time you're downed.

    3. Once you've been downed then No Mither will show up on the killers screen but in game the other survivors see you have the exposed effect so they can plan accordingly.

    4. Bonus BP should only be rewarded by stages, so if you were never downed you get 100% bonus to the survival category.

    If you got downed but not hooked and escape 75%, downed and hooked 50% and so on down to zero perhaps if you do safe unhooks then you get 25% back up to 75%.

    That last part would reward you for playing so risky but also you'd have to ensure that you got a safe unhook to the point you'd have to take the hit.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653
    @NoShinyPony The fact is no one uses it, like the old Surveillance.
  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 238

    @Entità said:
    @NoShinyPony The fact is no one uses it, like the old Surveillance.

    Yes, but if only a small amount of people plays hard mode, then that doesn't mean that hard mode should be nerfed. It simply means that people don't want to play a mode that is too difficult for them.

    I know I am repeating myself but: We are not talking about a useful perk, we are talking about hard mode! Why would a player want to nerf a hard mode instead of seeing it as a challenge or simply ignoring it?

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653

    @Entità said:
    @NoShinyPony The fact is no one uses it, like the old Surveillance.

    Yes, but if only a small amount of people plays hard mode, then that doesn't mean that hard mode should be nerfed. It simply means that people don't want to play a mode that is too difficult for them.

    I know I am repeating myself but: We are not talking about a useful perk, we are talking about hard mode! Why would a player want to nerf a hard mode instead of seeing it as a challenge or simply ignoring it?

    If you want hard mode, then you should stay injured all the trial with blood and grunts: what is the function of No Mither?
  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 238

    @Entità said:
    NoShinyPony said:

    @Entità said:

    @NoShinyPony The fact is no one uses it, like the old Surveillance.

    Yes, but if only a small amount of people plays hard mode, then that doesn't mean that hard mode should be nerfed. It simply means that people don't want to play a mode that is too difficult for them.

    I know I am repeating myself but: We are not talking about a useful perk, we are talking about hard mode! Why would a player want to nerf a hard mode instead of seeing it as a challenge or simply ignoring it?

    If you want hard mode, then you should stay injured all the trial with blood and grunts: what is the function of No Mither?

    The function of No Mither is being the hard mode. There is no other function. The devs could give bonus bloodpoints but I don't see the point in why a hard mode should be made less hard. If it's too difficult, then don't play it,

    It reads like what you are looking for is basically Unbreakable that you can use more than once.

  • mcNuggetsmcNuggets Member Posts: 395

    No Miter + Extra BP = Viable

    No Mither is already used in a few SWF builds.
    Buffing it, would make it OP.

  • RyuhiRyuhi Member Posts: 278

    @NoShinyPony said:

    @Entità said:
    NoShinyPony said:

    @Entità said:

    @NoShinyPony The fact is no one uses it, like the old Surveillance.

    Yes, but if only a small amount of people plays hard mode, then that doesn't mean that hard mode should be nerfed. It simply means that people don't want to play a mode that is too difficult for them.

    I know I am repeating myself but: We are not talking about a useful perk, we are talking about hard mode! Why would a player want to nerf a hard mode instead of seeing it as a challenge or simply ignoring it?

    If you want hard mode, then you should stay injured all the trial with blood and grunts: what is the function of No Mither?

    The function of No Mither is being the hard mode. There is no other function. The devs could give bonus bloodpoints but I don't see the point in why a hard mode should be made less hard. If it's too difficult, then don't play it,

    It reads like what you are looking for is basically Unbreakable that you can use more than once.

    most killer "hard mode" addons do just that: exchange a less favorable experience for faster bloodpoint gains (Speed Limiter, The Beast, etc.) No Mither just kinda makes the entire game harder with very little reason, aside from niche applications like running it with dead hard and having access to it 24/7, making a killer quickly decide not to slug, etc. Even with only a single use, Unbreakable manages to have a similar application but better due to its lack of flaws compared to no mither (hell, it even causes you to heal faster when downed for run by saves, which are stronger since they upped the self recover limit to like 90%)

    There have been a lot of good ideas of making it be more risk and reward even, since not only are you putting yourself in a harder spot but also your teammates. TBH I like the idea that DS should be reworked to be paired with no mither in some way, and one of the two reworked into a separate perk due to it.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 653
    edited January 15

    @Entità said:
    NoShinyPony said:

    @Entità said:

    @NoShinyPony The fact is no one uses it, like the old Surveillance.

    Yes, but if only a small amount of people plays hard mode, then that doesn't mean that hard mode should be nerfed. It simply means that people don't want to play a mode that is too difficult for them.

    I know I am repeating myself but: We are not talking about a useful perk, we are talking about hard mode! Why would a player want to nerf a hard mode instead of seeing it as a challenge or simply ignoring it?

    If you want hard mode, then you should stay injured all the trial with blood and grunts: what is the function of No Mither?

    The function of No Mither is being the hard mode. There is no other function. The devs could give bonus bloodpoints but I don't see the point in why a hard mode should be made less hard. If it's too difficult, then don't play it,

    It reads like what you are looking for is basically Unbreakable that you can use more than once.

    Maybe I'm not able to explain myself.
    If you want to play in hard mode, you can do it at will, you don't need a perk to have it:
    1) find the killer;
    2) let them hit you;
    3) continue the trial remaining injured;
    4) you leave pools of blood and emit grunts of pain;
    5) you cannot fully recover from the dying state.

    Instead, No Mither hard mode is easier, because you don't leave blood, your grunts are halved and you have a fictitious (because the killer won't leave you on the ground, knowing you run that perk, unless they are idiot) hope to fully recover from the dying state.

    Billy's and Bubba's speed limiters are useful, because they cannot reduce the chainsaw double damage attack at will; while No Mither is meaningless, because who wants an extreme trial can have it even without this perk, and the extreme trial they have without No Mither is harder than the extreme trial they would have if they ran it. Do you understand my point? :)

    So, I'll repeat my question: what's the function of No Mither? Wise @not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits , can you satisfy my curiosity? Is there anybody who can explain me what No Mither adds concretely to the game? I really don't understand why someone should choose No Mither, when they can have the hardest mode ever by simply a) following my five points, listed above, b) running no perks, no items and no offerings, and c) wearing a very visible cosmetic.
  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 238

    @Entità said:
    NoShinyPony said:

    @Entità said:

    NoShinyPony said:

    @Entità said:
    

    @NoShinyPony The fact is no one uses it, like the old Surveillance.



    Yes, but if only a small amount of people plays hard mode, then that doesn't mean that hard mode should be nerfed. It simply means that people don't want to play a mode that is too difficult for them.

    I know I am repeating myself but: We are not talking about a useful perk, we are talking about hard mode! Why would a player want to nerf a hard mode instead of seeing it as a challenge or simply ignoring it?



    If you want hard mode, then you should stay injured all the trial with blood and grunts: what is the function of No Mither?

    The function of No Mither is being the hard mode. There is no other function. The devs could give bonus bloodpoints but I don't see the point in why a hard mode should be made less hard. If it's too difficult, then don't play it,

    It reads like what you are looking for is basically Unbreakable that you can use more than once.

    Maybe I'm not able to explain myself.

    If you want to play in hard mode, you can do it at will, you don't need a perk to have it:

    1) find the killer;

    2) let them hit you;

    3) continue the trial remaining injured;

    4) you leave pools of blood and emit grunts of pain;

    5) you cannot fully recover from the dying state.

    Instead, No Mither hard mode is easier, because you don't leave blood, your grunts are halved and you have a fictitious (because the killer won't leave you on the ground, knowing you run that perk, unless they are idiot) hope to fully recover from the dying state.

    It's not easier. With No Mither, you start injured and the killer knows you are running it so it's more likely that you get tunneld.

    If you compare it to Speed Limiter: As I mentioned above, the devs could add a bonus bloodpoint function.

  • WateryWatery Member Posts: 341
    edited January 15
    Entità said:

    @Entità said:
    NoShinyPony said:

    @Entità said:

    @NoShinyPony The fact is no one uses it, like the old Surveillance.

    Yes, but if only a small amount of people plays hard mode, then that doesn't mean that hard mode should be nerfed. It simply means that people don't want to play a mode that is too difficult for them.

    I know I am repeating myself but: We are not talking about a useful perk, we are talking about hard mode! Why would a player want to nerf a hard mode instead of seeing it as a challenge or simply ignoring it?

    If you want hard mode, then you should stay injured all the trial with blood and grunts: what is the function of No Mither?

    The function of No Mither is being the hard mode. There is no other function. The devs could give bonus bloodpoints but I don't see the point in why a hard mode should be made less hard. If it's too difficult, then don't play it,

    It reads like what you are looking for is basically Unbreakable that you can use more than once.

    Maybe I'm not able to explain myself.
    If you want to play in hard mode, you can do it at will, you don't need a perk to have it:
    1) find the killer;
    2) let them hit you;
    3) continue the trial remaining injured;
    4) you leave pools of blood and emit grunts of pain;
    5) you cannot fully recover from the dying state.

    Instead, No Mither hard mode is easier, because you don't leave blood, your grunts are halved and you have a fictitious (because the killer won't leave you on the ground, knowing you run that perk, unless they are idiot) hope to fully recover from the dying state.

    Billy's and Bubba's speed limiters are useful, because they cannot reduce the chainsaw double damage attack at will; while No Mither is meaningless, because who wants an extreme trial can have it even without this perk, and the extreme trial they have without No Mither is harder than the extreme trial they would have if they ran it. Do you understand my point? :)

    So, I'll repeat my question: what's the function of No Mither? Wise @not_Queen @Patricia @Peanits , can you satisfy my curiosity? Is there anybody who can explain me what No Mither adds concretely to the game? I really don't understand why someone should choose No Mither, when they can have the hardest mode ever by simply a) following my five points, listed above, b) running no perks, no items and no offerings, and c) wearing a very visible cosmetic.
    Look, pinging the developers doesn’t necessarily mean you’re getting an answer. The point of David’s perk “No mither” is to support his “high-risk” play. In essence, that means his perks in themselves rely on chance decisions and tactics, such as the killer slugging you, or, the killer leaving you on the ground. It also works well with dead hard, since you’re already injured. The faster and infinite recovery is balanced out by his blood trail, which gets smaller and smaller each tier. And I’ll repeat myself- Entitá, please stop pinging the developers; as it not only makes it difficult enough to sort out the more relevant questions than this one. You can read his Wikipedia page (which is ran by the developers). Here’s the link for it: https://deadbydaylight.gamepedia.com/David_King
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