Hillbilly and Nurse balance suggestion

PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63
edited January 13 in Balance feedback

Problem: There is not enough variety of killers at higher levels of play as it is mostly dominated by Nurse and Hillbilly.

Causes: The core mechanics—while the initial learning curve may be a hurdle—of these killers ultimately lead to more secure success over using other killers*.  As a result, they are more streamlined and thus perceived as more viable against efficient SWF teams.
*Nobody is saying that learning the initial mechanics to the killer is easy, but rather that once one is familiar with them, then the challenge of using the killer are negligible.

Intention: Level the tiers among the killers to encourage variety and create more necessity for strategic use for the killers’ abilities.

Visual Representation:

The diagram below is more or less the current tier list among killers such that the top represents killers that can effectively deal with SWF teams, or what some of you are confusing as the term, viability; while the bottom are the killers which seem the least effective. Nevertheless, I see the problem as the unbalance among killers themselves. So ideally I would like to change it towards the latter image where all of the killers exist on the same tier where the core mechanics are not what dictate the outcome of the game, but rather the killer’s skill.



Therefore the most important thing is making the necessary adjustments to move all the killers into the same tier and understand the reasoning behind it. We could technically choose to move all the killers ability to the red tier by nerfing the shit out of each one of them, which most of you snowflakes would endlessly cry over. Oddly enough, a lot of you argue that we should instead focus on boosting all the killers into the yellow tier. While yes, both of these are technically solutions, we have to concede at some point or another that making adjustments to twelve other killers is a lot more work than adjusting the top and bottom tier towards the middle since the difference between the green and blue tiers could probably just be solved with stat tweaking. This is my proposal for addressing the top tier of killers and how to make them into middle tier.

Before I go into each of these, I want you guys for a moment to suspend success of killers versus survivors as a whole, as I’m more interested in the relative success among the killers. I will say that the benefit of having all the killers on the same tier list is that it makes the task of balancing against survivors much easier since survivors have the same game play. Therefore if all the killers are struggling against survivors, then you just increase the time it takes to complete a generator or unlock a gate—something that gives killers more time to succeed at their objective.

My Suggestions:

Hillbilly
Background: Hillbilly is a really strong killer, due to his sheer mobility and the chance to instantly down survivors with his chainsaw. While there is a bit of a learning curve to controlling his chainsaw, it gets easier with practice and you will eventually not have too many issues with directing him. However, he has a very convenient and effective strategy which is run up to the survivor close range and use his ability. This seems like a rather cheesy strategy mostly in relation to our precious Bubba boy. While technically Bubba boy can in fact down multiple people at once, his potency for his ability is usually limited to one survivor since most experienced survivors know at this point to generally stay clear of a chase. Therefore, the downing potential for both Hillbilly and Leatherface are effectively the same, the difference then being that Hillbilly has vastly superior mobility and is thus much more able to apply map pressure, defend gens, guard hooked survivors, monitor gates, etc.

Change: I argue that we can get rid of this close range strategy and force Hillbilly to aim his ability more so that downing a survivor doesn’t feel like an inevitability but more of a result of successfully reading what the survivor will do. I propose giving Hillbilly a requirement to cover 12 metres with his ability to instantly down a survivor into dying state, otherwise it puts a healthy survivor into injured state and  an injured or deeply wounded survivor into a dying state. The novel effect is that Leatherface gets a distinctly close-range advantage over his chainsaw brother. I suggest 12 metres because it’s still fairly close enough to give a survivor anxiety about a Hillbilly reving up his chainsaw, but far enough for survivors to not feel completely helpless; furthermore, it rewards Hillbilly for successfully aiming their ability and reading where survivors are moving.

Nurse
Background: Nurse is generally agreed to be the strongest killer in the game, and also has the highest learning curve. Similarly to Hillbilly, it takes a while to learn her basics, but once you have her figured out then using her ability generally becomes second nature. Typically speaking, once an experienced nurse sees a survivor, they will down them. She is essentially immune to the golden strategy that survivors covet so much, pallet looping. I think the core issue of her mechanics however is that the only real consequence to her ability is being fatigued. While this is a great first step, an experienced nurse is not going to have to adjust as much for failure to adequately use her blinks—they’re good as new the moment the fatigue wears off.

Change: I argue that Nurse blinks should be on a token system. The blinks ought to be base one, meaning that she will always have the capacity to blink at least one time once the fatigue wears off. A token would take time to recharge—let’s softly say 8 seconds to gain one token as this could be changed. This would then mean that a nurse with three blinks could initiate with three blinks, but would probably only be able to do two blinks if she spams her blink, and then eventually she will only be able to blink once if she continually spams it. This means then that the nurse would have to manage when she blinks order to correctly strategize the number of tokens available to her.

What I am not arguing: Hillbilly and Nurse are too OP! I am not concerned with how they fare against survivors since that is an ever-changing battle that is generally fixed with minor stat tweaks. I am more concerned with how they fare in comparison to other killers and I believe the problem is generally rooted in a lack of engagement for their abilities in some of the strategies that they use.

What I would like to see: Ultimately I can only argue from my own testimony and observe the aggregate experiences of others. I am certainly experienced at this game and while I don’t claim to be the best that there ever was, I can say that I can definitely do well. I know that rank is not a 1:1 correlation to skill, but for lack of other readily available metric, me quickly getting into high ranks is all I can truly offer in saying that I’m not a random survivor main that doesn’t know how to cope with Billy and Nurse. What I would like to see in order to either verify my suspicions regarding the killer tier list in practice versus a proposal is data showing the relative success of each killer; e.g. Hillbilly wins x% of games against survivors which escape y% of times in z-specific tier (there’s probably a better formula for gauging success, but this is to give a rough idea). I think also having a specific idea of what viability is among the community would also be ideal since it gives a clear goal of how to balance killers such that if a killer is getting 4K 75% among a majority of the players, then it means we know to tone them down, or they’re getting 0K 75% of the time, then give them boosts; i.e. I would like to hear viability expressed in terms of kill counts for a certain percent of games.

Post edited by PBlackII on
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Comments

  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63
    They’re kinda boring when you’re against an experienced billy or nurse who will easily get a 3K minimum due to favorable mechanics rather than strategy.
  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63
    And why not? The whole point is so we see different killers at high rank.
  • ArrozArroz Member Posts: 209

    LOL, no no no.. hillbilly will be more weak than freddy ;-; and nurse i dont know..

  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63
    As somebody with around 2.6k hours on this game and who usually gets rank 1 within the first couple days, I can definitely say that you guys are confusing mind games with luck. There is really little mind games going on for the killer side, just the drudgery of “is the survivor going to try faking me this time so I can easily secure the down”? I want killers to actually think about their ability rather than just crutch on it. And yes you are more likely to get successful results out of nerfing these two rather than hope you buff the rest of the killers correctly.
  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63
    And you guys are acting like these suggestions would nerf them into unusability. They would only eliminate cheesy no brain plays.
  • BadMrFrostyBadMrFrosty Member Posts: 90

    "Hey guys, there's only two viable killers at the highest level of play, we should nerf them so that people will gravitate toward other killers. Y'know, variety!"

    DBD Killer has left the lobby.

  • Unnamed_FreakUnnamed_Freak Member Posts: 281

    Yes, let's nerf the only viable killers against good survivors, it will certainly make the game better!

  • ThirdSealOPplzNerfThirdSealOPplzNerf Member Posts: 120

    @PBlackII said:
    Hillbilly: require a minimum distance of at least 12 metres to instadown.

    Nurse: have blinks based on tokens so that she has to manage her ability better to be successful.

    We’re all tired of these two being the only killers at high rank, and these are pretty simple fixes.

    Smart player: buff other killers so they aren't so weak compared to hillbilly and nurse and we get more variety then just the same 2 killers.
    Idiot survivor main: I only get nurse and hillbilly please nerf them.
    Logic.

  • DemonDaddyDemonDaddy Member Posts: 478
    If the killers are good enough to get a majority of kills then that makes for an interesting and challenging match. If they are using "cheap mechanics" then it should be an easy game since you know what to watch for.
  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63
    The other killers are viable at high ranks, you must be pretty shitty at this game to not know that. The problem is that there are two killers that require a way less effort than the others in order to get the same level of success. Again, these are not drastic nerfs and really good killers would be able to strategize with these sort of changes.

    Rather than be toxic and not constructive in any way whatsoever, give a reason that these nerfs would ruin these killers. Playing Hillbilly as it is is really easy, you run up close enough and just use your power; no thought whatsoever. Nurse? Run three blinks and you’re good, no need to worry about if you mess up because you’ll be back with three blinks to compensate. Neither of these presents a sincere mind game.
  • KenshinKenshin Member Posts: 77

    try to improve and learn how to play the game instead of crying for nerfs all the time. this nerf billy and nurse threads make me cringe inside everytime time.

  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63
    As stated before, I have 2.6k hours and reach high ranks quickly. I’m not complaining that they’re too hard, I’m complaining that their greater ease at achieving the desired results makes it where other killers are not nearly as played. Because it’s easy and straightforward to do well with them, I’m then suggesting a mechanic change to make it a little less brain dead.
  • yeetyeet Member Posts: 1,182

    no

  • yeetyeet Member Posts: 1,182

    @PBlackII said:
    As stated before, I have 2.6k hours and reach high ranks quickly. I’m not complaining that they’re too hard, I’m complaining that their greater ease at achieving the desired results makes it where other killers are not nearly as played. Because it’s easy and straightforward to do well with them, I’m then suggesting a mechanic change to make it a little less brain dead.

    you don't make other killers more viable by nerfing the good ones
    all you get then is nobody wanting to play killer anymore

  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63

    I'm not making the other killers more viable, they are viable if you can play them well. Hell, I've seen 4K freddies at top rank. What I'm saying is adjusting two killers who are easy to play at a high level so that they're on par with the others.

    I'm going to refer to another game to highlight this issue. Back in ye old days of Super Smash Bros. Brawl of being a thing, the character that absolutely dominated the tier list was Metaknight, mostly because it was easy to keep up obnoxious play in "high level" play. Sure, this didn't mean that we never saw any other players—but it was pretty obvious that most players favored him as a character because it guaranteed the most success with the least amount of effort; i.e. less upkeep.

    In the same sense, Nurse and Hillbilly are much like Metaknight. It's not that we never ever see other killers and that they're absolutely unbeatable, it's just much much easier to play them and secure at least a 3K for the majority of games provided you played them enough. The nerfs I'm suggesting are not even boring stat changes, they're practical mechanic changes that would force them to strategize a bit more so that they require the same effort to get the same success as the other killers.

  • yeetyeet Member Posts: 1,182

    @PBlackII said:
    I'm not making the other killers more viable, they are viable if you can play them well. Hell, I've seen 4K freddies at top rank. What I'm saying is adjusting two killers who are easy to play at a high level so that they're on par with the others.

    I'm going to refer to another game to highlight this issue. Back in ye old days of Super Smash Bros. Brawl of being a thing, the character that absolutely dominated the tier list was Metaknight, mostly because it was easy to keep up obnoxious play in "high level" play. Sure, this didn't mean that we never saw any other players—but it was pretty obvious that most players favored him as a character because it guaranteed the most success with the least amount of effort; i.e. less upkeep.

    In the same sense, Nurse and Hillbilly are much like Metaknight. It's not that we never ever see other killers and that they're absolutely unbeatable, it's just much much easier to play them and secure at least a 3K for the majority of games provided you played them enough. The nerfs I'm suggesting are not even boring stat changes, they're practical mechanic changes that would force them to strategize a bit more so that they require the same effort to get the same success as the other killers.

    ah so you're just lying so you get easier games
    opinion discarded

  • se05239se05239 Member Posts: 812

    @Acromio said:
    No.
    /thread

  • ZagridZagrid Member Posts: 227
    No
  • DemothDemoth Member Posts: 49

    @PBlackII said:
    As somebody with around 2.6k hours on this game and who usually gets rank 1 within the first couple days, I can definitely say that you guys are confusing mind games with luck. There is really little mind games going on for the killer side, just the drudgery of “is the survivor going to try faking me this time so I can easily secure the down”? I want killers to actually think about their ability rather than just crutch on it. And yes you are more likely to get successful results out of nerfing these two rather than hope you buff the rest of the killers correctly.

    If they nerf Nurse, it won't make me play other killers at high ranks. It'll just make me stop playing the game, because I don't like being bullied by experienced SWF groups for the 3 minutes that the gens haven't been absolutely eaten alive.

  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63

    I didn't lie at all, and I'm not sure why you guys are so ravenously trying to defend killers that are easy to play. I mean you guys are saying that you can't play other killers because you get 'bullied' or it's 'not viable' when that just communicates that you guys are (a) bad at killer or (b) not wanting to put in effort to get a 4K—either case not really a compelling argument.

    I'm not saying nerf Hillybilly and Nurse because I find them oh so hard to deal with, I'm saying nerf them because it's a noticeable majority of the games in high rank because they're easy to play at the higher level. Furthermore, these suggestions do not nerf them to the point where they can't be used at all, it just puts them even with the rest of the killers.

    You guys are following up by pouting that other killers aren't viable and should be boosted, but the reality is that they are. You can get a 4k with them against a SWF group; it's not supposed to be easy, but it's certainly possible with all of them given the right mechanics, mind games, and other circumstances. Am I saying that absolutely no other killers need buffs? Of course not. Perhaps somebody here can define what 'viability' means with respect to killers. Is it securely getting a 4K for the majority of games? Getting half of the survivors? Doing enough to get the safety pip?

  • ThirdSealOPplzNerfThirdSealOPplzNerf Member Posts: 120

    @PBlackII said:
    As stated before, I have 2.6k hours and reach high ranks quickly. I’m not complaining that they’re too hard, I’m complaining that their greater ease at achieving the desired results makes it where other killers are not nearly as played. Because it’s easy and straightforward to do well with them, I’m then suggesting a mechanic change to make it a little less brain dead.

    To say playing nurse and hillbilly is easy and braindead makes you sound braindead. Nurse is really difficult to play and Billy is hard to play when survivors are trying to evade the chainsaw nothing is is easy even with the top tier killers.

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 922
    edited January 9

    The only thing I would change is to give Hillbilly the revving speed of Leatherface (and viceversa) and make the hitbox slightly narrower. Currently he does everything LF does (except multi-downs) but better, without requiring much more skill.
    About the Nurse I would change her addons to make them more balanced and interesting (3-4 blinks or insane range with basically no downside is kinda stupid), but her base power imo is fine.

  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63

    @ThirdSealOPplzNerf said:

    @PBlackII said:
    As stated before, I have 2.6k hours and reach high ranks quickly. I’m not complaining that they’re too hard, I’m complaining that their greater ease at achieving the desired results makes it where other killers are not nearly as played. Because it’s easy and straightforward to do well with them, I’m then suggesting a mechanic change to make it a little less brain dead.

    To say playing nurse and hillbilly is easy and braindead makes you sound braindead. Nurse is really difficult to play and Billy is hard to play when survivors are trying to evade the chainsaw nothing is is easy even with the top tier killers.

    No, certain strategies with them are pretty braindead, I'm trying to get rid of those strategies. If you are an experienced nurse and you are running three blinks and you spot a survivor, then you will get them pretty handily—this is absolutely no surprise to any nurse main. If you are Billy it's incredibly easy to just run up close to a survivor and just chainsaw them and not have to deal with hitting them. There is literally no thought process behind this, and the problem is that crutching on these strategies is rewarded. If you don't think doing so is easy, then you have not played enough of either of them.

    Clearly explain to me why having a nurse with blinks running on tokens is a bad idea? I didn't say that tokens are not rechargeable or that they charge slowly; but it's pretty obvious that the point is to make a nurse main manage their blinks more wisely. This doesn't mean that they can't ever triple blink, it means they can't spam it relentlessly because they know missing the first round isn't a big deal.

    Why is having a distance requirement for an instadown bad on hillbilly? It is then forcing them to think about where to aim. That doesn't make them useless, it makes it where they have to play differently and actually use their head when using their ability. He still has excellent map coverage and it would still be possible to down survivors with it.

    Again, I'm not complaining that "nurse and billy are too hard to play against waaaah," that was never my argument. I'm saying that it's too easy to play them effectively so people choose them over the other killers. People who don't think they can't get a good game out of the killers just reveals to me that you guys aren't particularly good with the other killers.

  • PBlackIIPBlackII Member Posts: 63

    To add greater clarity, I'm not saying, "As a survivor, I don't like playing against Hillbilly or Nurse because I usually lose against them because it's easy to play as them." I'm saying that I want those killers to be more engaging to play as—they are currently the most played because it is easiest to play them and get the greatest amount of success. This doesn't have to do with viability as viability refers to a minimum capacity for achieving a threshold of success; e.g. a killer who requires a ton of effort and still only provides about 1K on average versus a killer who played on average garners you about 2K per game with the capacity of 4K with advanced level game play.

  • KingBKingB Member Posts: 325
    No. Billy's chainsaws would be impossible to land unless playing a braindead survivor. And his chainsaws are already hard to hit against good survivors unless they are caught in the open. Nurse is the hardest killer to play in game, she's supposed to be rewarding.
  • bloxebloxe Member Posts: 81
    edited January 10
    Have you ever played with any of them?? I'm a rank 1 killer and I hate both those killers because of how easy it is to counter them. Combine that with the learning required, and you see that they are good because people put effort to learning and evolving them.
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