Lag switching bannable, laggy survivors = fine

witulo

This double standard really pisses me off. Lag switching is [BAD WORD] bad, we all know that. But its completely fine for survivors to be EXTREMELY laggy, and barely uncatchable, and gain a simular advantage to lag switching from whatever it is they do to increase their latency. Both need to be bannable offences. Its funny how the lag is very selective too, and only occur's during chases or when they are about to be hit.

Add it to the list of bannable offences, survivors have more than enough crutches and tools at their disposal, don't make lag another one.

powerbats

@witulo said:
This double standard really pisses me off. Lag switching is [BAD WORD] bad, we all know that. But its completely fine for survivors to be EXTREMELY laggy, and barely uncatchable, and gain a simular advantage to lag switching from whatever it is they do to increase their latency. Both need to be bannable offences. Its funny how the lag is very selective too, and only occur's during chases or when they are about to be hit.

Add it to the list of bannable offences, survivors have more than enough crutches and tools at their disposal, don't make lag another one.

Oh good grief, you can always dodge someone with 1k ping or red ping and if you think someone is lag switching on the survivor end and you've got proof report them.

Also you do realize that you're the host so perhaps it might just be you that's the problem or you know the possibly multiple Isp's the data runs through to get to you.

Lastly the fact you use the crutches insult points to it being more you and not them.

BigBadPiggy

I see it as a problem when they are purposely [BAD WORD] up their internet too gain an advantage. But when the lag is out of their control because a lot of people are on their internet, they have a [BAD WORD] service provider, etc, it shouldn’t be your problem. The lag [BAD WORD] up the survivors just as much as it does the killer. Don’t be a douche to them and just let them know their internet wasn’t the best.

And no it’s not a double standard. Men not being able to open their legs while they sit is bad, while it’s ok for women to take up 3 seats their bags. THAT is a double standard.

Peanits

Whoever told you lagswitching is not bannable for survivors has lied to you. When we go through reports, we don't care in the slightest who's playing what, lagswitching is lagswitching.

Judgement

Peanits said:

Whoever told you lagswitching is not bannable for survivors has lied to you. When we go through reports, we don't care in the slightest who's playing what, lagswitching is lagswitching.

Does lag-switching even work as a Survivor though?
In normal cases if a Survivor lags they get teleported back to where they last were or, if they were moving, to where they would have been if they kept going that way. For the host (Killer) and other Survivors, that one keeps running in the same direction.
At least that’s my experience with lag as a Survivor but I don’t know if lag-switching changes anything.

mcNuggets

I saw survivors lagging forward, but they didnt use any cheats.
It's just the poorly scripted game not checking for max. speed serverside.

Peanits

@Judgement said:
Peanits said:

Whoever told you lagswitching is not bannable for survivors has lied to you. When we go through reports, we don't care in the slightest who's playing what, lagswitching is lagswitching.

Does lag-switching even work as a Survivor though?
In normal cases if a Survivor lags they get teleported back to where they last were or, if they were moving, to where they would have been if they kept going that way. For the host (Killer) and other Survivors, that one keeps running in the same direction.
At least that’s my experience with lag as a Survivor but I don’t know if lag-switching changes anything.

There are ways, not going to go into details. The less is known about it the better.

Judgement

Peanits said:

@Judgement said:
Peanits said:

Whoever told you lagswitching is not bannable for survivors has lied to you. When we go through reports, we don't care in the slightest who's playing what, lagswitching is lagswitching.

Does lag-switching even work as a Survivor though?
In normal cases if a Survivor lags they get teleported back to where they last were or, if they were moving, to where they would have been if they kept going that way. For the host (Killer) and other Survivors, that one keeps running in the same direction.
At least that’s my experience with lag as a Survivor but I don’t know if lag-switching changes anything.

There are ways, not going to go into details. The less is known about it the better.

Understandable.

Kaelum

@Judgement there is something new that survivors are doing that from the killer’s side, looks like they are just jumping from point to point to point, without really running. It started a little over a month ago, where I’d see it maybe once every few days, to now where it occurrs at least once every 5-10 matches. It only seems to happen with higher ranked killers, and I didn’t see it all for the week after rank reset.

I play on PS4 and thought that it was just a PS4 thing, but then I started to see it on PC streams as well. It definitely happens more on the PS4, which means that it is some sort of black box on their Internet connection. I have a feeling that when it is turned on, it blocks like every Nth packet, which would exhibit behavior like I am seeing. I’ll have to setup WireShark and monitor the connection sometime, to see if there is a pattern.

Tsulan

powerbats said:

@witulo said:
This double standard really pisses me off. Lag switching is [BAD WORD] bad, we all know that. But its completely fine for survivors to be EXTREMELY laggy, and barely uncatchable, and gain a simular advantage to lag switching from whatever it is they do to increase their latency. Both need to be bannable offences. Its funny how the lag is very selective too, and only occur's during chases or when they are about to be hit.

Add it to the list of bannable offences, survivors have more than enough crutches and tools at their disposal, don't make lag another one.

Oh good grief, you can always dodge someone with 1k ping or red ping and if you think someone is lag switching on the survivor end and you've got proof report them.

Also you do realize that you're the host so perhaps it might just be you that's the problem or you know the possibly multiple Isp's the data runs through to get to you.

Lastly the fact you use the crutches insult points to it being more you and not them.

I'm going to frame your answer and point at it  every time someone complains about lag switching killers. 

Judgement

Kaelum said:

@Judgement there is something new that survivors are doing that from the killer’s side, looks like they are just jumping from point to point to point, without really running. It started a little over a month ago, where I’d see it maybe once every few days, to now where it occurrs at least once every 5-10 matches. It only seems to happen with higher ranked killers, and I didn’t see it all for the week after rank reset.

I play on PS4 and thought that it was just a PS4 thing, but then I started to see it on PC streams as well. It definitely happens more on the PS4, which means that it is some sort of black box on their Internet connection. I have a feeling that when it is turned on, it blocks like every Nth packet, which would exhibit behavior like I am seeing. I’ll have to setup WireShark and monitor the connection sometime, to see if there is a pattern.

I actually saw something like that a while ago, a Survivor was teleporting forward while I was chasing them and essentially doubling their speed so that it took me so much longer to catch up to them.
They were totally green in the lobby and then suddenly started warping which increased their speed.
I guess it was either a speedhack or lag-switch - or both. I still managed to kill them though.

powerbats

@Tsulan said:

I'm going to frame your answer and point at it  every time someone complains about lag switching killers. 

Go right ahead since I've given the same advice to survivors complaining about and also telling them to record it and submit it via support ticket if it's actually lag switching. I've even explained multiple times the differences and sometimes subtle ones at that.

But let's be honest here we both know killers do it way more often than survivors do at least on pc so more of survivors complaints are legitimate.

Tsulan

powerbats said:

@Tsulan said:

I'm going to frame your answer and point at it  every time someone complains about lag switching killers. 

Go right ahead since I've given the same advice to survivors complaining about and also telling them to record it and submit it via support ticket if it's actually lag switching. I've even explained multiple times the differences and sometimes subtle ones at that.

But let's be honest here we both know killers do it way more often than survivors do at least on pc so more of survivors complaints are legitimate.

There are far less lag switchers than people claim.
Not every lag spike is a switcher.

OrionsFury4789

Tsulan said:

powerbats said:

@Tsulan said:

I'm going to frame your answer and point at it  every time someone complains about lag switching killers. 

Go right ahead since I've given the same advice to survivors complaining about and also telling them to record it and submit it via support ticket if it's actually lag switching. I've even explained multiple times the differences and sometimes subtle ones at that.

But let's be honest here we both know killers do it way more often than survivors do at least on pc so more of survivors complaints are legitimate.

There are far less lag switchers than people claim.
Not every lag spike is a switcher.

It's the matchmaking system that's the culprit here they've said more than once in their streams that they've had problems with it , killers are more often lag switchers (when it does happen) and survivors more often speed hack from what Ive noticed

Tsulan

OrionsFury4789 said:

Tsulan said:

powerbats said:

@Tsulan said:

I'm going to frame your answer and point at it  every time someone complains about lag switching killers. 

Go right ahead since I've given the same advice to survivors complaining about and also telling them to record it and submit it via support ticket if it's actually lag switching. I've even explained multiple times the differences and sometimes subtle ones at that.

But let's be honest here we both know killers do it way more often than survivors do at least on pc so more of survivors complaints are legitimate.

There are far less lag switchers than people claim.
Not every lag spike is a switcher.

It's the matchmaking system that's the culprit here they've said more than once in their streams that they've had problems with it , killers are more often lag switchers (when it does happen) and survivors more often speed hack from what Ive noticed

If the killer has survivors from USA, Russia, Japan and Australia in the same lobby. While sitting in Europe. I guarantee you, that at least 1 of them will complain about the killer being a lag switcher. 

I can count the amount of lag switchers I've faced on 1 hand. Lag spikes happen quite often. But are not a indicator for lag switching. 

micsan

@Peanits said:
Whoever told you lagswitching is not bannable for survivors has lied to you. When we go through reports, we don't care in the slightest who's playing what, lagswitching is lagswitching.

Could Behaviour please at some point publish the number of reports and actions taken? This would help with false reports I think. As you can see in this thread, I'm not the only one getting annoyed by the fact that every time there is lag in game you get called a lag switcher.

I am so goddamn annoyed by all the whiny survivors that message me calling me a lag switcher. I play on wireless, I play for fun, I do not care that my connection isn't perfect. I've never had any problems with lag or being called a lag switcher in any game I've ever played, but in DbD it happens every 2-3 games I play as killer. In short, I'm not going to drill a hole in my floor to pull a ethernet cable through simply because of some whiny kids that don't understand how the internet works. There is going to be lag, that doesn't mean someone has gone out of their way to create a physical button\switch to manipulate the data sent to their ps4.

yobuddd

@Kaelum said:
@Judgement there is something new that survivors are doing that from the killer’s side, looks like they are just jumping from point to point to point, without really running. It started a little over a month ago, where I’d see it maybe once every few days, to now where it occurrs at least once every 5-10 matches. It only seems to happen with higher ranked killers, and I didn’t see it all for the week after rank reset.

I play on PS4 and thought that it was just a PS4 thing, but then I started to see it on PC streams as well. It definitely happens more on the PS4, which means that it is some sort of black box on their Internet connection. I have a feeling that when it is turned on, it blocks like every Nth packet, which would exhibit behavior like I am seeing. I’ll have to setup WireShark and monitor the connection sometime, to see if there is a pattern.

It’s funny you say this because I’ve seen a new problem that has developed over the exact same time scale you mentioned. As killer on PS4, I can play a decent game, get a couple hooked or sacrificed, but as soon as I’m gaining the upper hand over one of those annoying high level player, the whole match ends and I’m sent back to the home screen. It has now become so common (1 in 5) that I’m unwilling to use add ons or offerings anymore until this is addressed, since they will be lost if this happens. On a different thread someone said it could be a programmed flashlight spam that breaks the game. I’ve managed to reduce instances this somewhat by cancelling any room that has a flashlight-wielding survivor join, but it’s not foolproof. Last time it happened, the culprit had a flashlight they must have gotten from a chest.

DwightsLifeMatters

Survivors can't lagswitch, they are not the host. If they try to lagswitch they are only harming themselves. If survivors are skipping it could be just ping related, your Internet getting spikes or a speedhacker. That's at least what I know, could be wrong tho 

ChesterTheMolester

DwightsLifeMatters said:

Survivors can't lagswitch, they are not the host. If they try to lagswitch they are only harming themselves. If survivors are skipping it could be just ping related, your Internet getting spikes or a speedhacker. That's at least what I know, could be wrong tho 

Peanits mentioned that they can, lagswitching survs do exist, probably just less known.

Mc_Harty

@ChesterTheMolester said:
Peanits mentioned that they can, lagswitching survs do exist, probably just less known.

... How would that even work? Aren't they harming themselves?

ChesterTheMolester

Mc_Harty said:

@ChesterTheMolester said:
Peanits mentioned that they can, lagswitching survs do exist, probably just less known.

... How would that even work? Aren't they harming themselves?

Not sure. But i have seen laggy survivors acting like Tracer sometimes so i can imagine that some found a way to weaponize that lag.

Tsulan

ChesterTheMolester said:

Mc_Harty said:

@ChesterTheMolester said:
Peanits mentioned that they can, lagswitching survs do exist, probably just less known.

... How would that even work? Aren't they harming themselves?

Not sure. But i have seen laggy survivors acting like Tracer sometimes so i can imagine that some found a way to weaponize that lag.

Same. But it's more a hack than a switch. 

ChesterTheMolester

Tsulan said:

ChesterTheMolester said:

Mc_Harty said:

@ChesterTheMolester said:
Peanits mentioned that they can, lagswitching survs do exist, probably just less known.

... How would that even work? Aren't they harming themselves?

Not sure. But i have seen laggy survivors acting like Tracer sometimes so i can imagine that some found a way to weaponize that lag.

Same. But it's more a hack than a switch. 

Idk, never ran into (a blatant-) one. Especially as a console peasant. Maybe that explains it though.

Kaelum

@yobuddd what you are describing is a little different. It’s based on a known bug that BHVR thought they had fixed, but hadn’t fully. There are controllers out there that allow buttons to auto-pulse at beyond human rates, which is what is happening with flashlights. When a flashlight is pulsed fast enough, it creates the possibly of those nearby to DC. It’s usually the killer that DCs, but it can do the same to survivors. This was verified just a couple weeks ago, when it happened live on Puppers stream several times.

I am almost 100% certain that the survivor lagg switch device was created by a hacker who decoded the telemetry streams, and figured out how to reduce the information being sent to the host (Killer) w/o suffering the effects of normal lagg. It basically picks certain packets to block, but does not block the retry packets. Which results in the 1/2 second stop motion animation that killers are seeing.

P.S. This new lagg switch device also has the ability to TP the survivor completely out of view, with no scratch mark trail. One moment they are in front of you in stop motion animation, then they are just gone.

powerbats

@Tsulan said:

There are far less lag switchers than people claim.
Not every lag spike is a switcher.

I'm not disputing either of those but I've been around long enough to know the difference and have recorded enough videos of it happening. But to say it doesn't exist or happens only rarely is untrue especially on pc and for those that remember the old Starcraft usage.

thesuicidefox

I've seen laggy survivors, and while they do seem to skip around at a faster pace eventually that lag will bite them in the ass because the moment you get close they can't do anything to avoid you. Killer has host so there's not really a way they can cheese the connection in their favor, since your game is basically in command of everything. If you lagswitch as survivor you are just an idiot because it will do nothing for you, except get you a ban when reported.

Delfador

You are comparing oranges with apples.

Lagswitch is bannable.

Laggy survivors are OK.

Laggy killers are OK.

Lag spikes from both sides are OK.

The last 3 is not desirable but they are a part of the multiplayer games. The problem starts when people do it intentionally.

Tsulan

powerbats said:

@Tsulan said:

There are far less lag switchers than people claim.
Not every lag spike is a switcher.

I'm not disputing either of those but I've been around long enough to know the difference and have recorded enough videos of it happening. But to say it doesn't exist or happens only rarely is untrue especially on pc and for those that remember the old Starcraft usage.

As I said. There are far less than people claim. But they exist. 

powerbats

@Tsulan said:

As I said. There are far less than people claim. But they exist. 

Agreed, I'd like to see a video expose where people could see the differences but then the ones lag switching would learn to game it.

yobuddd

@Kaelum said:
@yobuddd what you are describing is a little different. It’s based on a known bug that BHVR thought they had fixed, but hadn’t fully. There are controllers out there that allow buttons to auto-pulse at beyond human rates, which is what is happening with flashlights. When a flashlight is pulsed fast enough, it creates the possibly of those nearby to DC. It’s usually the killer that DCs, but it can do the same to survivors. This was verified just a couple weeks ago, when it happened live on Puppers stream several times.

I am almost 100% certain that the survivor lagg switch device was created by a hacker who decoded the telemetry streams, and figured out how to reduce the information being sent to the host (Killer) w/o suffering the effects of normal lagg. It basically picks certain packets to block, but does not block the retry packets. Which results in the 1/2 second stop motion animation that killers are seeing.

P.S. This new lagg switch device also has the ability to TP the survivor completely out of view, with no scratch mark trail. One moment they are in front of you in stop motion animation, then they are just gone.

It’s different, yes, but I find it remarkable that (for me) this issue on PS4 has drastically increased over the exact same timescale that Kaelum describes in his observation. While I’m not so savvy in regards to the inner workings of internet connections, I think your explanation makes great sense.

That said, here are my next questions: Will the dedicated servers coming online this summer fix these issues? As in, will the strength of the Killer’s internet connection still be the determining factor for the smoothness of gameplay? Will flashlight spams be rendered ineffective? Is there anything that we (or the developers) can do about it in the meantime?

sigh until things are resolved, I guess I’ll just have to keep closing out rooms when survivors join with flashlights (or have too many X’s in their name for that matter! Common culprits)

Sn0wJob

I played against a team with a laurie who had 900 ping, I couldn't get a single hit on her.
She later admitted she was from australia, I felt bad.
Nobody should have to live in australia