Reset Hook Stage timer back to 30 seconds each

DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026

For those who don't remember or didn't play the game back then, Hook stages used to only take 30 seconds per stage. The devs increased that to 45 seconds per stage. The game's pace was quite different back then and with how much faster it is nowadays and with how little time Killers have on their hand already (a situation that is to become even worse with the upcoming Prove Thyself change), I suggest reverting that change and give Killers some time to breathe. It would also lessen camping. One of the many reasons a Killer camps is because the sacrifice process takes too long and they don't want to risk the Survivor getting off just before those 45 seconds elapsed.

Comments

  • VietfoxVietfox Member Posts: 3,374
    Wait, you are really saying it would lessen camping? Damn, either you know nothing about the DbD community or just lying.
    Nice try anyway!
  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026
    edited January 11

    @Vietfox said:
    Wait, you are really saying it would lessen camping? Damn, either you know nothing about the DbD community or just lying.
    Nice try anyway!

    I honestly expected you to make such a reply. You're utterly unable to even consider that one reason Killers camp is the time pressure they have. I'm guessing inexperience in this case rather than ignorance.

    Less time pressure = less camping. When the devs increased the time, camping spiked, just putting that out there.

    I'm not claiming that it will work with all Killers as some just camp for fun, but then again, those shouldn't be considered in the first place.

    And one more thing and I don't care if I'm rude now or whatever: I do not talk out of bias, I never do. I've pretty much equally played both sides since the game's release and always have both sides in mind when I suggest stuff or advocate against or for a change. My interest is a balanced game, for both sides. A balance in time management is part of that as the game's pace has immensely quickened over the years. When I say that I would Hooks taking 60 seconds to sacrifice a Survivor instead of the current 90, then I do keep in mind that I will probably be on such a 60-second Hook sooner or later and not just the one who puts the Survivors on there.

    I will not stand for any bias or Killer main accusation from people like you, I just won't have it.

  • powerbatspowerbats Member Posts: 5,613

    This would simply reward high mobility killers and encourage more camping since Billy/Spirit/Nurse could camp even harder knowing they can get killers quicker.

    It'll also encourage more hook diving thus rewarding said hook campers while also feeding the narrative it's survivors fault for hook rushing. You run into a experienced killer that down's someone within the 1st 15-30 seconds.

    Ok they sit there for a minute in which case 1-3 gens might pop, they go after someone bam and there's another person gone perhaps 1-2 more gens done. Ok the 3rd person is toast at that point since they know they're getting hard camped or they get hooked and the 4th gets hunted.

    Now even if it's not an experienced killer you'll have people who give up once they get to stage II, you've got people's hands that slip get tired. That camping killer saves 15 seconds and they get to auto sacrifice that person the next time if they get unhooked.

    Once you add secondary objectives in this just becomes why don't you go stand in front of a hook for my 4k now and save us all the time.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026

    @Vietfox said:
    DocOctober said:

    @Vietfox said:

    Wait, you are really saying it would lessen camping? Damn, either you know nothing about the DbD community or just lying.

    Nice try anyway!

    I honestly expected you to make such a reply.

    I'll take that as a compliment :)
    Let me make it simple so you can understand. Reducing hook time stages means less gens done if killer decides to camp, meaning more chances to get more kills.
    Have a nice day.
    PS: Please don't think you know everything about this game just because you copy/paste the information BHVR provides to a website.

    Let me make it simple so you can understand. Reducing Hook time stages means less pressure on the Killer so that they don't feel like they have to camp to cut down on or prevent potentially long-lasting chases for which there is no time in the current pace of the game.

    Have a nice day.

    P.S. Maintaining a Wiki is not just copy-pasting stuff as your ignorance assumes it is. As you can see quite clearly if you've ever bothered visiting the Wiki, a considerable amount of stuff cannot be anywhere in the game itself.

    Chainsaw Sprint increasing Billy's speed to 9.2m/s and Carburettor Tuning Guide decreasing charge time by 18, cool-down by 14 and penalty cool-down by 12% and reducing the noise range by 30%? Yeah good luck copy-pasting that.

    You're utterly disrespectful and your bias honestly makes me sick. I'm well aware of why I usually don't bother with you, it's really not worth it.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026

    @powerbats said:
    This would simply reward high mobility killers and encourage more camping since Billy/Spirit/Nurse could camp even harder knowing they can get killers quicker.

    It'll also encourage more hook diving thus rewarding said hook campers while also feeding the narrative it's survivors fault for hook rushing. You run into a experienced killer that down's someone within the 1st 15-30 seconds.

    Ok they sit there for a minute in which case 1-3 gens might pop, they go after someone bam and there's another person gone perhaps 1-2 more gens done. Ok the 3rd person is toast at that point since they know they're getting hard camped or they get hooked and the 4th gets hunted.

    Now even if it's not an experienced killer you'll have people who give up once they get to stage II, you've got people's hands that slip get tired. That camping killer saves 15 seconds and they get to auto sacrifice that person the next time if they get unhooked.

    Once you add secondary objectives in this just becomes why don't you go stand in front of a hook for my 4k now and save us all the time.

    Is every Killer high-mobility? No. Not an argument.

    Isn't hook-diving what Survivors do regardless of anything else? Yes, it is. Not an argument.

    Is every Killer lucky (experienced is the wrong word to use here as experience means jack-shit with loopers) and downs the first Survivor in 15-30 seconds? No. Not an argument.

    That is one particular scenario that is not representative of all games that are played. Because one scenario is bad all the others should be disregarded? Sorry, not how it works. Not an argument.

    Same goes for people who give up in stage II or slip from the spacebar and quite honestly, that's the worst argument you made so far. I could argue that having the hook stage take 45 seconds actually gives a Survivor 15 seconds more of a chance to slip.

    That should be fixed immediately /s

    Do we have mandatory secondary objectives? No, we don't. Not an argument.

    Come up with some better stuff.

  • VietfoxVietfox Member Posts: 3,374

    @Vietfox said:
    DocOctober said:

    @Vietfox said:

    Wait, you are really saying it would lessen camping? Damn, either you know nothing about the DbD community or just lying.

    Nice try anyway!

    I honestly expected you to make such a reply.

    I'll take that as a compliment :)
    Let me make it simple so you can understand. Reducing hook time stages means less gens done if killer decides to camp, meaning more chances to get more kills.
    Have a nice day.
    PS: Please don't think you know everything about this game just because you copy/paste the information BHVR provides to a website.

    Let me make it simple so you can understand. Reducing Hook time stages means less pressure on the Killer so that they don't feel like they have to camp to cut down on or prevent potentially long-lasting chases for which there is no time in the current pace of the game.

    Have a nice day.

    P.S. Maintaining a Wiki is not just copy-pasting stuff as your ignorance assumes it is. As you can see quite clearly if you've ever bothered visiting the Wiki, a considerable amount of stuff cannot be anywhere in the game itself.

    Chainsaw Sprint increasing Billy's speed to 9.2m/s and Carburettor Tuning Guide decreasing charge time by 18, cool-down by 14 and penalty cool-down by 12% and reducing the noise range by 30%? Yeah good luck copy-pasting that.

    You're utterly disrespectful and your bias honestly makes me sick. I'm well aware of why I usually don't bother with you, it's really not worth it.

    Gotta admit i just read the first paragraph, and i just read that cause doesn't make any sense. Killers would abuse that system and we all know it,  please stop lying to yourself.
  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026
    edited January 11

    @Vietfox said:
    DocOctober said:

    @Vietfox said:

    DocOctober said:

    @Vietfox said:
    
    Wait, you are really saying it would lessen camping? Damn, either you know nothing about the DbD community or just lying.
    
    Nice try anyway!
    
    
    
    I honestly expected you to make such a reply.
    
    
    
    I'll take that as a compliment :)
    

    Let me make it simple so you can understand. Reducing hook time stages means less gens done if killer decides to camp, meaning more chances to get more kills.

    Have a nice day.

    PS: Please don't think you know everything about this game just because you copy/paste the information BHVR provides to a website.

    Let me make it simple so you can understand. Reducing Hook time stages means less pressure on the Killer so that they don't feel like they have to camp to cut down on or prevent potentially long-lasting chases for which there is no time in the current pace of the game.

    Have a nice day.

    P.S. Maintaining a Wiki is not just copy-pasting stuff as your ignorance assumes it is. As you can see quite clearly if you've ever bothered visiting the Wiki, a considerable amount of stuff cannot be anywhere in the game itself.

    Chainsaw Sprint increasing Billy's speed to 9.2m/s and Carburettor Tuning Guide decreasing charge time by 18, cool-down by 14 and penalty cool-down by 12% and reducing the noise range by 30%? Yeah good luck copy-pasting that.

    You're utterly disrespectful and your bias honestly makes me sick. I'm well aware of why I usually don't bother with you, it's really not worth it.

    Gotta admit i just read the first paragraph, and i just read that cause doesn't make any sense. Killers would abuse that system and we all know it,  please stop lying to yourself.

    Both scenarios are equally valid, whether you like it or not. I'm not lying to myself, I just understand both sides of the campfire, something you do not. And Survivor mains should be the last ones to point fingers in the exploit discussion.

  • VietfoxVietfox Member Posts: 3,374
    DocOctober said:
    And Survivor mains should be the last ones to point fingers in the exploit discussion.
    So now you admit taking sides :)
    I'm a survivor main simply cause i play a bit more as a survivor than as a killer and i never denied that, but i've spent lots of hours as a killer. Probably more than some killer mains who started to play this game 1 year ago.
    Anyway, i love how you dodged what i said about killers abusing that system.
  • powerbatspowerbats Member Posts: 5,613

    @DocOctober said:

    Is every Killer high-mobility? No. Not an argument.

    Yes it is, you're ignoring the high mobility killers because it negates your argument.

    Isn't hook-diving what Survivors do regardless of anything else? Yes, it is. Not an argument.

    No and you know for a fact not every survivor or group does it. So no and it is an argument and you know it.

    Is every Killer lucky (experienced is the wrong word to use here as experience means jack-shit with loopers) and downs the first Survivor in 15-30 seconds? No. Not an argument.

    No but they do exist so yes it's an argument since you're using best case scenarios for your argument but denying others the same.

    That is one particular scenario that is not representative of all games that are played. Because one scenario is bad all the others should be disregarded? Sorry, not how it works. Not an argument.

    So your scenario should be the only one used because it favors your argument, isn't that the very definition of the word hypocritical? since the answer to that is yes that is how it works so yes it's an argument, you just don't like it's outcome.

    Same goes for people who give up in stage II or slip from the spacebar and quite honestly, that's the worst argument you made so far. I could argue that having the hook stage take 45 seconds actually gives a Survivor 15 seconds more of a chance to slip.

    So because something happens it should be negated because it doesn't fit your biased arguments narrative and instead rely on yours? What those 15 extra seconds could make the difference between an unhook or another gen being popped etc.

    That should be fixed immediately /s

    Wrong, just because you want it to be able to secure more kills doesn't mean it's either going to happen or is actually logical either.

    Do we have mandatory secondary objectives? No, we don't. Not an argument.

    Oh yes the fallacy finally rears it's ugly head, we don't ahve x so we should do something illogical because i want my 4 kills easier and quicker.

    Since we know they're planning on secondary objectives and have tested them out during the Pustula event and it worked to an extent. We should completely ignore that coming down the pipeline because you want to be illogical and get something you don't deserve or need.

    Oh and imagine that it's still an argument whether you like it or not, just because it refutes in any way what you say doesn't make it not an argument.

    Come up with some better stuff.

    Now how long did you think about that one since that's pretty weak as far as trolling goes you might've well just said I surrender or posted a white flag instead of using that.

    Now if you actually thought about this logically you'd realize you're not asking for this for any reasonable reason but instead for your own personal bias of getting an easier game.

    If you thought of this logically you'd realize you're not asking for this for balance reasons but because you want easier and quicker games.

    If you thought of this logically and reasonably you'd realize all the shortcomings it has and how abused it'd become.

    Bottom line it won't work for all the reasons you've been given, you just refuse to accept those reasons because you only want what's best for your own selfish gain, not what's best overall.

  • AcromioAcromio Member Posts: 280

    @DocOctober said:
    You're utterly disrespectful and your bias honestly makes me sick. I'm well aware of why I usually don't bother with you, it's really not worth it.

    +1

  • Tru3LemonTru3Lemon Member Posts: 300
    edited January 12

    @DocOctober said:
    For those who don't remember or didn't play the game back then, Hook stages used to only take 30 seconds per stage. The devs increased that to 45 seconds per stage. The game's pace was quite different back then and with how much faster it is nowadays and with how little time Killers have on their hand already (a situation that is to become even worse with the upcoming Prove Thyself change), I suggest reverting that change and give Killers some time to breathe. It would also lessen camping. One of the many reasons a Killer camps is because the sacrifice process takes too long and they don't want to risk the Survivor getting off just before those 45 seconds elapsed.

    seems that someone that wants more nerf for survivors, or i have a good idea lets get rid off bloodlust and put more windows also that the entity cannot block seems fair to me right

  • ShadoureonShadoureon Member Posts: 491

    Yes because instead of camping 45 seconds per stage the killers will now run off because theres absolutely no way they camp for 30 seconds per stage... Dumb logic right there. How are you even trying to defend yourself.

  • FoggyDownpourFoggyDownpour Member Posts: 225
    From a survivor stand point:
    I hated the 30 second hook timer. If you were on the other side of the map from where someone got hooked, you had to immediately start running in order to have a chance at getting to them before the next stage progressed. There wasn't any time to have a strategy, and the killer camped more often than not since it didn't take nearly as long for the survivor to die. That 15 extra seconds per stage made a world of difference and reckless altruism wasn't as rampant after it got added on.

    From a killer standpoint:
    The extra time makes the game a bit more drawn out and gives me more points in the end. Survivors aren't always the smartest and often need that extra time to go for the save. I would rather have more hooks and unhooks than a quick 4k that nets me almost nothing. 

    Overall pov:
    Don't revert the hook timers
  • RaptorrotasRaptorrotas Member Posts: 238

    Oh no, the Killer is standing somewhere, menacingly, quick punish him for not rushing to face the backleft corner of the basement for the remainder of the sacrifice.

    It actually makes sense. Less sacrifice time means less time for rescues, thus meaning survivors have to get up instead leisurely working on generators.If the Killer camps that, hooray he still wastes enough time for 3 generators to be done instead of 4. I think its good to stress survivors into decisions with the trends currently changing this game...

    @DocOctober
    Funny how these obviously survivor biased trolls are trying to call you out on something.

  • MojoTheFabulousMojoTheFabulous Member Posts: 789

    @Raptorrotas said:
    Oh no, the Killer is standing somewhere, menacingly, quick punish him for not rushing to face the backleft corner of the basement for the remainder of the sacrifice.

    It actually makes sense. Less sacrifice time means less time for rescues, thus meaning survivors have to get up instead leisurely working on generators.If the Killer camps that, hooray he still wastes enough time for 3 generators to be done instead of 4. I think its good to stress survivors into decisions with the trends currently changing this game...

    @DocOctober
    Funny how these obviously survivor biased trolls are trying to call you out on something.

    It'll just make camping more frequent because it'd be far more beneficial to do so. Camping has always been around and has always been a very common thing. Making it better isn't going to somehow make people do it less.

  • powerbatspowerbats Member Posts: 5,613

    @Raptorrotas said:
    Oh no, the Killer is standing somewhere, menacingly, quick punish him for not rushing to face the backleft corner of the basement for the remainder of the sacrifice.

    It actually makes sense. Less sacrifice time means less time for rescues, thus meaning survivors have to get up instead leisurely working on generators.If the Killer camps that, hooray he still wastes enough time for 3 generators to be done instead of 4. I think its good to stress survivors into decisions with the trends currently changing this game...

    @DocOctober
    Funny how these obviously survivor biased trolls are trying to call you out on something.

    Oh no the killer can save 15 seconds of camping and get rewarded for doing it by making survivors rush the hook even more now.

    Yes it makes sense less sacrifice time emans the killer can't be punished by gen rushing him and 3 gens can't be finished unless they're hitting skill checks. You do know that math says that it takes 80 seconds to finish a gen without hitting skill checks.

    With your heavily killer biased idea it takes 60 seconds to die and that means 3 gens aren't getting popped before that person dies. Now throw in perhaps people start running for the hook to save and realize hey they're camping. Well whoops now those 3 gens aren't getting done and guess what the killer can now get another person sacrificed as well.

    You know what's funny is that you've already shown you've got no argument when you have to resort to the tried and failed survivor main insult. Because the moment you resort to that pile of nonsense when someone disagrees with you you've already thrown up the white flag.

    Oh and I've been a killer main the last several months so I guess that insult just fell as flat as your argument did.

  • HURRI_KAINHURRI_KAIN Member Posts: 45

    Weren't they supposed to include in a patch that killer BP would serverely be reduced if they were within a certain distance of a hooked survivor if they weren't in a chase? If this hasn't come through yet in a patch they need to hurry this one up to reduce camping.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026

    @HURRI_KAIN said:
    Weren't they supposed to include in a patch that killer BP would serverely be reduced if they were within a certain distance of a hooked survivor if they weren't in a chase? If this hasn't come through yet in a patch they need to hurry this one up to reduce camping.

    No, they weren't and it wouldn't be a solution. Bloodpoints are low on the list of reasons a Killer might camp for.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026

    @Vietfox said:
    DocOctober said:
    And Survivor mains should be the last ones to point fingers in the exploit discussion.

    So now you admit taking sides :)
    I'm a survivor main simply cause i play a bit more as a survivor than as a killer and i never denied that, but i've spent lots of hours as a killer. Probably more than some killer mains who started to play this game 1 year ago.
    Anyway, i love how you dodged what i said about killers abusing that system.

    I do pick sides: the one that I deem to deserve it more and for the longest time, it's been the Killer side.

    Should the tables turn, I'll gladly support Survivors.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026

    @MojoTheFabulous said:

    @Raptorrotas said:
    Oh no, the Killer is standing somewhere, menacingly, quick punish him for not rushing to face the backleft corner of the basement for the remainder of the sacrifice.

    It actually makes sense. Less sacrifice time means less time for rescues, thus meaning survivors have to get up instead leisurely working on generators.If the Killer camps that, hooray he still wastes enough time for 3 generators to be done instead of 4. I think its good to stress survivors into decisions with the trends currently changing this game...

    @DocOctober
    Funny how these obviously survivor biased trolls are trying to call you out on something.

    It'll just make camping more frequent because it'd be far more beneficial to do so. Camping has always been around and has always been a very common thing. Making it better isn't going to somehow make people do it less.

    Camping became more frequent when the 45 second timers were implemented. Learn your DbD history.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026

    @FoggyDownpour said:
    From a survivor stand point:
    I hated the 30 second hook timer. If you were on the other side of the map from where someone got hooked, you had to immediately start running in order to have a chance at getting to them before the next stage progressed. There wasn't any time to have a strategy, and the killer camped more often than not since it didn't take nearly as long for the survivor to die. That 15 extra seconds per stage made a world of difference and reckless altruism wasn't as rampant after it got added on.

    From a killer standpoint:
    The extra time makes the game a bit more drawn out and gives me more points in the end. Survivors aren't always the smartest and often need that extra time to go for the save. I would rather have more hooks and unhooks than a quick 4k that nets me almost nothing. 

    Overall pov:
    Don't revert the hook timers

    Now that's actually a well-formulated counter argument.

    Very much unlike all the "you are a biased Killer main" crap coming from others.

  • HURRI_KAINHURRI_KAIN Member Posts: 45

    @DocOctober said:

    @HURRI_KAIN said:
    Weren't they supposed to include in a patch that killer BP would serverely be reduced if they were within a certain distance of a hooked survivor if they weren't in a chase? If this hasn't come through yet in a patch they need to hurry this one up to reduce camping.

    No, they weren't and it wouldn't be a solution. Bloodpoints are low on the list of reasons a Killer might camp for.

    Clearly you misunderstand, I'm not saying killers camp to get BP, but decreasing the killer's BP earnings would incentivize them to stop detrimental behavior such as camping.

  • DocOctoberDocOctober Member Posts: 1,026

    @HURRI_KAIN said:

    @DocOctober said:

    @HURRI_KAIN said:
    Weren't they supposed to include in a patch that killer BP would serverely be reduced if they were within a certain distance of a hooked survivor if they weren't in a chase? If this hasn't come through yet in a patch they need to hurry this one up to reduce camping.

    No, they weren't and it wouldn't be a solution. Bloodpoints are low on the list of reasons a Killer might camp for.

    Clearly you misunderstand, I'm not saying killers camp to get BP, but decreasing the killer's BP earnings would incentivize them to stop detrimental behavior such as camping.

    I understood you perfectly, maybe I didn't phrase it right.

    What I wanted to tell you is that most Killers don't care very much for Bloodpoints, so a penalty wouldn't necessarily stop them from camping.

  • powerbatspowerbats Member Posts: 5,613

    @DocOctober I respect your dedication toi wanting to help killers and we can all agree except the biased survivors that want killers nerfed that killers need help.

    But where you're making a mistake is how you're going about it since this will only incentivize camping more now especially on smaller maps. Because if you do it twice you've saved yourself 30 in total if not more now versus if you camp and got gen rushed.

    Now gen rushing will become even more of a thing, you'll see even more dcs most likely because the person on the hook will figure out pretty quickly they're not getting saved. They're also not going to live long enough to get any gen completion points either.

    If you suggested this back before pre BNP nerf or before pre pallet nerf/exhaustion etc nefs then it'd probably have been more balanced. But with all the nerfs to survivor stuff and buffs to killers it's just an imbalanced way to address things.

    I've made quite a few buff suggestions for killers both perk and non perk related but most wouldn't work due to flaws either coding, impracticality, would create more problems than it solved etc. Your problem is you're only seeing the positives for killers in the short term not what this would do overall.

  • MojoTheFabulousMojoTheFabulous Member Posts: 789

    @DocOctober said:

    @MojoTheFabulous said:

    @Raptorrotas said:
    Oh no, the Killer is standing somewhere, menacingly, quick punish him for not rushing to face the backleft corner of the basement for the remainder of the sacrifice.

    It actually makes sense. Less sacrifice time means less time for rescues, thus meaning survivors have to get up instead leisurely working on generators.If the Killer camps that, hooray he still wastes enough time for 3 generators to be done instead of 4. I think its good to stress survivors into decisions with the trends currently changing this game...

    @DocOctober
    Funny how these obviously survivor biased trolls are trying to call you out on something.

    It'll just make camping more frequent because it'd be far more beneficial to do so. Camping has always been around and has always been a very common thing. Making it better isn't going to somehow make people do it less.

    Camping became more frequent when the 45 second timers were implemented. Learn your DbD history.

    Never felt diFFerent to me and regardless, making this change would give camping more power so it would in no way reduce the frequency.

  • ShadoureonShadoureon Member Posts: 491

    @MojoTheFabulous said:

    @DocOctober said:

    @MojoTheFabulous said:

    @Raptorrotas said:
    Oh no, the Killer is standing somewhere, menacingly, quick punish him for not rushing to face the backleft corner of the basement for the remainder of the sacrifice.

    It actually makes sense. Less sacrifice time means less time for rescues, thus meaning survivors have to get up instead leisurely working on generators.If the Killer camps that, hooray he still wastes enough time for 3 generators to be done instead of 4. I think its good to stress survivors into decisions with the trends currently changing this game...

    @DocOctober
    Funny how these obviously survivor biased trolls are trying to call you out on something.

    It'll just make camping more frequent because it'd be far more beneficial to do so. Camping has always been around and has always been a very common thing. Making it better isn't going to somehow make people do it less.

    Camping became more frequent when the 45 second timers were implemented. Learn your DbD history.

    Never felt diFFerent to me and regardless, making this change would give camping more power so it would in no way reduce the frequency.

    For me camping became far worse since the Spirit release. Dont know why but its something I noticed very clearly. Cant think of anything in that patch that promotes camping so much other than Spirit players using their ability to leave the hook and then instantly back.

  • powerbatspowerbats Member Posts: 5,613

    @Shadoureon said:

    For me camping became far worse since the Spirit release. Dont know why but its something I noticed very clearly. Cant think of anything in that patch that promotes camping so much other than Spirit players using their ability to leave the hook and then instantly back.

    Well as a Spirit main if I phase away and 5 seconds later you're unhooking of course i'm coming back and most people don't wait long enough before rushing in for an unhook. If you're not waiting 10 seconds after they've phased at a minimum you're just feeding them.

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