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Switched from killer main to play survivor for a while on Console and wow is it bad.

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  • TeaLeafTeaLeaf Member Posts: 205

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @TeaLeaf said:
    Hmm its an interesting case I will give you, though it is still an argument of playing sub-optimaly because that makes you 'better' and 'more skilled'. However it is the best argument I have herd for such a thing in a while and can relate when its kill your friends. I suppose at the end of the day, if your on the killer side if you seek to win (try hard) by doing what a horror game would have a killer do.. aka kill as your fun or simply chase. Like wise with survivors who load every advantage talent wise they can, if fun for them is surviving or if they don't try to do gens as a priority. For me I expect survivors to gen rush and try to win and killers to kill. If the game was meant to have one character acting as a game master, I would think differently. However both sides are set up in a competitive fashion. Is the issue the games design then?

    It comes down to by how much you "win" really. Like when I play survivor and the game is going by REALLY fast and it looks like we got matched with a baby rank <10 killer I will stop doing gens because I know how lame that is for the killer. If I got my pip I usually don't care if I die (only if I find a good item or no on else is going to escape to I really play hard to escape). But if I'm going against what is clearly a rank 1 killer that knows what they are doing I won't sleep on them.

    Same with killer, if I get baby survivors I go easy on them and let the game play out more. If some of them get away I'm cool with that. I won't make it easy for them, but I won't make it impossible either. But then when I see survivors that know how to loop, with an obsession, and popping gens/Ruin fast I will put on my try hard pants and make them work for it. You have to gauge your opponent in this game, because rank ultimately means nothing you have to act as the ranking system in a way if you are really good at the game.

    Just imagine if we had a REAL ELO style ranking system, but instead of matching you with similarly skilled opponents it just threw any 4 survivors into your lobby. You could be rank 1 diamond grand master commander-in-chief marvel's the avengers rank and they could be rank 20 doo doo brain peasant DC presents C-team Justice League. That's kind of how things sometimes work now, so if you want to be a "fair" player you need to consider these things. Otherwise you are really just kind of a bully.

    This is a different matter, I would like to think... (though don't believe it) that people do this. I know I have dragged survivors tot he trap door before, and purposely played poorly when I run into survivors where I can tell a large discrepancy in skill. Ironically usually when I do this I get the EZ insults at the end of the match for any good will I show if they get out. For me at least given how very toxic this community is, I can see how many killers and survivors take the root of "bully" by showing no quarter.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 7,885
    edited February 2019

    @TeaLeaf said:
    As for defensive play being looked down upon mentioned above I would also add... one of the emblems for killers is gate keeper. It is achieved by preventing the gates being powered 10 mins or not being finished. We also have killers (like the hag) designed for defensive play styles. To say defensive play is a poor style means certain killers should be removed and some of the emblem system is counter productive.

    Never said defensive play isn't viable, I'm saying that it shouldn't be the go to strategy because it is ultimately done from a losing position (eg. when gates are open and you have no kills). You can't win against good players by playing defensively, at least not entirely, you have to be offensive in order to win. Doing stuff to slow the game down is no inherently defensive. If you play Billy or Huntress you can start slugging to slow the game down like crazy, but that requires you to find and catch survivors, in other words playing offensively. Hag has a strong defense no doubt, but if you set up all your traps and just camp anyway the other survivors rush gens and escape, so you lose. What you should do is get a hook, trap it, then go looking for another survivor. If someone hits the trap you put down THEN you play defensively because now you have the option to do so. You can't play defensively and succeed if there is no one to defend against (ie. no one comes to save).

    @TeaLeaf said:
    This is a different matter, I would like to think... (though don't believe it) that people do this. I know I have dragged survivors tot he trap door before, and purposely played poorly when I run into survivors where I can tell a large discrepancy in skill. Ironically usually when I do this I get the EZ insults at the end of the match for any good will I show if they get out. For me at least given how very toxic this community is, I can see how many killers and survivors take the root of "bully" by showing no quarter.

    Yea the bullying aspect of playing fair is lame I will admit. Which is often why I go out of my way to make it CLEAR that I am playing fair and/or giving freebies. If survivors think that they somehow did something to outplay me I'm sure they would throw it in my face. If I catch someone and decide to slug I will do it in a context where there isn't even another survivor nearby I'm going for. I just leave them on the floor and walk away. Or I will see someone going for a save and just let them while going to kick gens or pallets. I look at the guy, make sure he KNOWS I see him, then ignore him anyway. That way he won't think that he outplayed me with stealth and that I let him make the save. Generally it works out for me. But I can understand not wanting to give freebies if it means survivors trash you post game. That still does not refute any of my previous points as it comes down to if you know this person or if you expect them to be toxic after the game.

  • fluffybunnyfluffybunny Member Posts: 2,161

    @TeaLeaf said:

    @fluffybunny said:

    @TeaLeaf said:
    Hmm its an interesting case I will give you, though it is still an argument of playing sub-optimaly because that makes you 'better' and 'more skilled'. However it is the best argument I have herd for such a thing in a while and can relate when its kill your friends. I suppose at the end of the day, if your on the killer side if you seek to win (try hard) by doing what a horror game would have a killer do.. aka kill as your fun or simply chase. Like wise with survivors who load every advantage talent wise they can, if fun for them is surviving or if they don't try to do gens as a priority. For me I expect survivors to gen rush and try to win and killers to kill. If the game was meant to have one character acting as a game master, I would think differently. However both sides are set up in a competitive fashion. Is the issue the games design then?

    Well, I'm not really talking about sub-optimal play. By all means if they rush the hook, punish that. I personally expect it. They shouldn't be doing that. Killers are supposed to take advantage of mistakes and misplays, though. It's part of their role. What irritates me is when the killer WAITS for a misplay. Like they hoover around the hook and wait for someone foolish enough to go in for it. A lot of times people do, too, and reward the killer for something that doesn't take much thought. Given it happens less at the higher ranks, but it's still annoying. And you can always tell who relies on such tactics, like you can tell who uses NOED. They're just weaker players overall. I don't really consider trying to win as being try hard. I consider using OP items/add-ons/offerings as being try hard, especially if it's to help the side who used them win. Like if I want to live (daily), I'm bring in an OP item for myself 'cause I wanna live. I would be essentially try harding.

    I would also argue that just because it's part of the game, doesn't mean it's perfect. My biggest concern is that when killers get all the buffs they need, they'll still camp and tunnel because it's the easy option. Playing killer is far better than it once was and sometimes it feels like there's just been an increase in camping and tunneling. Ideally, we would want a match that is fair for both sides and if one player is tunneled down and killed, they're not really given a chance to play.

    Well for the purpose of killing I would say it is indeed a sub-optimal style spoken of. What I am referring too is specifically letting a survivor run off for the reason they got hooked a moment ago or when presented with an option going for the wounded survivor near death rather then the fresh. As well if the gates are powered and you have had no kills, but you have some one hooked it is very sub-optimal to leave that 1 kill you may have secured by camping when leaving assures no kills (and depending on set up of survivors its possible you can't defend that camped hook either).

    When it comes to reaction I mean that survivors use on generators dictate the flow of the match. You can only chase one survivor and the speed at which generators can be completed is 2 min 40 secs for 5 generators (not factoring in interruptions and travel time). This means the killer must react to the survivors flow and mistakes as a skilled loopier and use of pallets can easily allow 3 gens to be completed before the first hook (chase, down, travel time to the hook). A game can be completed in truth in about 3 mins. Some killers are able to apply map pressure but its not universal to all killers as some are not exceptional at map pressure.

    As for defensive play being looked down upon mentioned above I would also add... one of the emblems for killers is gate keeper. It is achieved by preventing the gates being powered 10 mins or not being finished. We also have killers (like the hag) designed for defensive play styles. To say defensive play is a poor style means certain killers should be removed and some of the emblem system is counter productive.

    Are we talking about hoovering around the hook and tunneling the hooked person once they're unhooked or someone happening to unhook in front of you and going after the weaker target? I think the latter is more understandable. You're reacting to a situation and I'd say it's the biggest reason I try not to go down when solo if I can help it. You can't account for people you're playing with to actually do good saves and for the killer to have mercy when faced with that situation. Sometimes I'll down the person and leave them to get picked up and sometimes I won't. Depends on how generous I feel. I don't personally find it an issue if a killer camps once the doors are opened. It's expected at that point. I don't think I'm as critical of killers as others are, though. Some will accuse killers of camping and tunneling, even when they didn't do anything to deserve that sort of treatment and some people consider some things to be bad when I don't consider them to be. I'm typically more annoyed with my team than anything else (joys of solo play).

    As for the gate keeper, that comes from giving pressure to generators, does it not? Ignoring generators to chill next to the victim shouldn't yield in a good returns. The same could be said with hoovering around victims, rather than pressuring generators and putting pressure on the field. Also using examples of possibilties in game isn't exactly a strong argument. It isn't like they have massively tweak looping to make it easier for killers, after all, despite it being in game.

  • e8Latticee8Lattice Member Posts: 189
    edited February 2019

    In a game that's consistently and fairly balanced to be fun for all you shouldn't feel like you need to hold back for it to be fair. Yet this is how it is to be a Killer. It's a real shame too, it's what happens when the devs favor one class type over another because their bosses tell them that's where the profit margin lies.

    So they forgo all sense of tactical nuance for an easy-mode in a multiplayer game, essentially the games tombstone. And why? just because one side of the game cries endlessly for killer buffs and survivor nerfs rather than for it to be fairly balanced for all, so all can enjoy the game.

  • TeaLeafTeaLeaf Member Posts: 205

    @fluffybunny said:

    @TeaLeaf said:

    @fluffybunny said:

    @TeaLeaf said:
    Hmm its an interesting case I will give you, though it is still an argument of playing sub-optimaly because that makes you 'better' and 'more skilled'. However it is the best argument I have herd for such a thing in a while and can relate when its kill your friends. I suppose at the end of the day, if your on the killer side if you seek to win (try hard) by doing what a horror game would have a killer do.. aka kill as your fun or simply chase. Like wise with survivors who load every advantage talent wise they can, if fun for them is surviving or if they don't try to do gens as a priority. For me I expect survivors to gen rush and try to win and killers to kill. If the game was meant to have one character acting as a game master, I would think differently. However both sides are set up in a competitive fashion. Is the issue the games design then?

    Well, I'm not really talking about sub-optimal play. By all means if they rush the hook, punish that. I personally expect it. They shouldn't be doing that. Killers are supposed to take advantage of mistakes and misplays, though. It's part of their role. What irritates me is when the killer WAITS for a misplay. Like they hoover around the hook and wait for someone foolish enough to go in for it. A lot of times people do, too, and reward the killer for something that doesn't take much thought. Given it happens less at the higher ranks, but it's still annoying. And you can always tell who relies on such tactics, like you can tell who uses NOED. They're just weaker players overall. I don't really consider trying to win as being try hard. I consider using OP items/add-ons/offerings as being try hard, especially if it's to help the side who used them win. Like if I want to live (daily), I'm bring in an OP item for myself 'cause I wanna live. I would be essentially try harding.

    I would also argue that just because it's part of the game, doesn't mean it's perfect. My biggest concern is that when killers get all the buffs they need, they'll still camp and tunnel because it's the easy option. Playing killer is far better than it once was and sometimes it feels like there's just been an increase in camping and tunneling. Ideally, we would want a match that is fair for both sides and if one player is tunneled down and killed, they're not really given a chance to play.

    Well for the purpose of killing I would say it is indeed a sub-optimal style spoken of. What I am referring too is specifically letting a survivor run off for the reason they got hooked a moment ago or when presented with an option going for the wounded survivor near death rather then the fresh. As well if the gates are powered and you have had no kills, but you have some one hooked it is very sub-optimal to leave that 1 kill you may have secured by camping when leaving assures no kills (and depending on set up of survivors its possible you can't defend that camped hook either).

    When it comes to reaction I mean that survivors use on generators dictate the flow of the match. You can only chase one survivor and the speed at which generators can be completed is 2 min 40 secs for 5 generators (not factoring in interruptions and travel time). This means the killer must react to the survivors flow and mistakes as a skilled loopier and use of pallets can easily allow 3 gens to be completed before the first hook (chase, down, travel time to the hook). A game can be completed in truth in about 3 mins. Some killers are able to apply map pressure but its not universal to all killers as some are not exceptional at map pressure.

    As for defensive play being looked down upon mentioned above I would also add... one of the emblems for killers is gate keeper. It is achieved by preventing the gates being powered 10 mins or not being finished. We also have killers (like the hag) designed for defensive play styles. To say defensive play is a poor style means certain killers should be removed and some of the emblem system is counter productive.

    Are we talking about hoovering around the hook and tunneling the hooked person once they're unhooked or someone happening to unhook in front of you and going after the weaker target? I think the latter is more understandable. You're reacting to a situation and I'd say it's the biggest reason I try not to go down when solo if I can help it. You can't account for people you're playing with to actually do good saves and for the killer to have mercy when faced with that situation. Sometimes I'll down the person and leave them to get picked up and sometimes I won't. Depends on how generous I feel. I don't personally find it an issue if a killer camps once the doors are opened. It's expected at that point. I don't think I'm as critical of killers as others are, though. Some will accuse killers of camping and tunneling, even when they didn't do anything to deserve that sort of treatment and some people consider some things to be bad when I don't consider them to be. I'm typically more annoyed with my team than anything else (joys of solo play).

    As for the gate keeper, that comes from giving pressure to generators, does it not? Ignoring generators to chill next to the victim shouldn't yield in a good returns. The same could be said with hoovering around victims, rather than pressuring generators and putting pressure on the field. Also using examples of possibilties in game isn't exactly a strong argument. It isn't like they have massively tweak looping to make it easier for killers, after all, despite it being in game.

    As for what I am in defense of it is strategic camping, not chilling by the hook (unless gates are powered.) For example if I hook some one, I will often leave but then 30m out back track towards the hook. This is in hopes to intercept some one going for the unhook, as once I engage them in a chase some one eles has to leave a gen to unhook victim number 1. This also can have the effect of making survivors sneak for future unhooks and take more time in their unhook attempts to make sure I am not doubling back. This is because it isn't strategic to do this all game, once they suspect your going back they might linger on a gen too long. Its all about buying enough time for a killer.

    Oh I am in agreement about face camping on the first hook or while gens are done, as it is a very sub-optimal style of play. It takes 2 mins for that survivor to die which leaves the other survivors all the time to complete gens and get out. My use of suboptimal is often what I see expected of me, never hook some one twice in a row, and any thing less then running tot he other side of the map your called a camper. As you said, you can still be accused of it regardless. I have often been left to believe most who throw down the word don't understanding what face camping is and how it is different from other form of camping aka baiting and ambush.

    Examples arn't the best way for an argument but I feel this is more of a sharing of idea's then either side aggressively trying to make a point. Mutual sharing of idea's I think examples work wonders under that goal ^.^

  • fluffybunnyfluffybunny Member Posts: 2,161

    @TeaLeaf said:

    @fluffybunny said:

    @TeaLeaf said:

    @fluffybunny said:

    @TeaLeaf said:
    Hmm its an interesting case I will give you, though it is still an argument of playing sub-optimaly because that makes you 'better' and 'more skilled'. However it is the best argument I have herd for such a thing in a while and can relate when its kill your friends. I suppose at the end of the day, if your on the killer side if you seek to win (try hard) by doing what a horror game would have a killer do.. aka kill as your fun or simply chase. Like wise with survivors who load every advantage talent wise they can, if fun for them is surviving or if they don't try to do gens as a priority. For me I expect survivors to gen rush and try to win and killers to kill. If the game was meant to have one character acting as a game master, I would think differently. However both sides are set up in a competitive fashion. Is the issue the games design then?

    Well, I'm not really talking about sub-optimal play. By all means if they rush the hook, punish that. I personally expect it. They shouldn't be doing that. Killers are supposed to take advantage of mistakes and misplays, though. It's part of their role. What irritates me is when the killer WAITS for a misplay. Like they hoover around the hook and wait for someone foolish enough to go in for it. A lot of times people do, too, and reward the killer for something that doesn't take much thought. Given it happens less at the higher ranks, but it's still annoying. And you can always tell who relies on such tactics, like you can tell who uses NOED. They're just weaker players overall. I don't really consider trying to win as being try hard. I consider using OP items/add-ons/offerings as being try hard, especially if it's to help the side who used them win. Like if I want to live (daily), I'm bring in an OP item for myself 'cause I wanna live. I would be essentially try harding.

    I would also argue that just because it's part of the game, doesn't mean it's perfect. My biggest concern is that when killers get all the buffs they need, they'll still camp and tunnel because it's the easy option. Playing killer is far better than it once was and sometimes it feels like there's just been an increase in camping and tunneling. Ideally, we would want a match that is fair for both sides and if one player is tunneled down and killed, they're not really given a chance to play.

    Well for the purpose of killing I would say it is indeed a sub-optimal style spoken of. What I am referring too is specifically letting a survivor run off for the reason they got hooked a moment ago or when presented with an option going for the wounded survivor near death rather then the fresh. As well if the gates are powered and you have had no kills, but you have some one hooked it is very sub-optimal to leave that 1 kill you may have secured by camping when leaving assures no kills (and depending on set up of survivors its possible you can't defend that camped hook either).

    When it comes to reaction I mean that survivors use on generators dictate the flow of the match. You can only chase one survivor and the speed at which generators can be completed is 2 min 40 secs for 5 generators (not factoring in interruptions and travel time). This means the killer must react to the survivors flow and mistakes as a skilled loopier and use of pallets can easily allow 3 gens to be completed before the first hook (chase, down, travel time to the hook). A game can be completed in truth in about 3 mins. Some killers are able to apply map pressure but its not universal to all killers as some are not exceptional at map pressure.

    As for defensive play being looked down upon mentioned above I would also add... one of the emblems for killers is gate keeper. It is achieved by preventing the gates being powered 10 mins or not being finished. We also have killers (like the hag) designed for defensive play styles. To say defensive play is a poor style means certain killers should be removed and some of the emblem system is counter productive.

    Are we talking about hoovering around the hook and tunneling the hooked person once they're unhooked or someone happening to unhook in front of you and going after the weaker target? I think the latter is more understandable. You're reacting to a situation and I'd say it's the biggest reason I try not to go down when solo if I can help it. You can't account for people you're playing with to actually do good saves and for the killer to have mercy when faced with that situation. Sometimes I'll down the person and leave them to get picked up and sometimes I won't. Depends on how generous I feel. I don't personally find it an issue if a killer camps once the doors are opened. It's expected at that point. I don't think I'm as critical of killers as others are, though. Some will accuse killers of camping and tunneling, even when they didn't do anything to deserve that sort of treatment and some people consider some things to be bad when I don't consider them to be. I'm typically more annoyed with my team than anything else (joys of solo play).

    As for the gate keeper, that comes from giving pressure to generators, does it not? Ignoring generators to chill next to the victim shouldn't yield in a good returns. The same could be said with hoovering around victims, rather than pressuring generators and putting pressure on the field. Also using examples of possibilties in game isn't exactly a strong argument. It isn't like they have massively tweak looping to make it easier for killers, after all, despite it being in game.

    As for what I am in defense of it is strategic camping, not chilling by the hook (unless gates are powered.) For example if I hook some one, I will often leave but then 30m out back track towards the hook. This is in hopes to intercept some one going for the unhook, as once I engage them in a chase some one eles has to leave a gen to unhook victim number 1. This also can have the effect of making survivors sneak for future unhooks and take more time in their unhook attempts to make sure I am not doubling back. This is because it isn't strategic to do this all game, once they suspect your going back they might linger on a gen too long. Its all about buying enough time for a killer.

    Oh I am in agreement about face camping on the first hook or while gens are done, as it is a very sub-optimal style of play. It takes 2 mins for that survivor to die which leaves the other survivors all the time to complete gens and get out. My use of suboptimal is often what I see expected of me, never hook some one twice in a row, and any thing less then running tot he other side of the map your called a camper. As you said, you can still be accused of it regardless. I have often been left to believe most who throw down the word don't understanding what face camping is and how it is different from other form of camping aka baiting and ambush.

    Examples arn't the best way for an argument but I feel this is more of a sharing of idea's then either side aggressively trying to make a point. Mutual sharing of idea's I think examples work wonders under that goal ^.^

    I think that's fine, personally, though I know some people are more at the extreme ends than others. My biggest issue with solo play is that a lot of people won't go for the saves or they outright farm you. xD; Feels like no one can go for safe unhooks. Like they won't even try to block or anything and you'll just go down immediately.

    Yeah, like I said, it depends on my mood if I'll two hook someone or leave them on the ground. If the game is going well, I generally won't tunnel or whatever. It's kinda on them if they lead me back to the hook or they don't let me leave, but I always try to get the farmer when I can 'cause that crap annoys the crap out of me.

    Mhm, it is, though I think expressing specifics is always important. Someone won't know where you're coming from if you don't describe the road, you know? Kind of like that. Given some people don't care what the other "side" is experiencing, but I'm always up to hearing people out.

  • LilBitLilBit Member Posts: 60
    Ugh I am a tad disgruntled and frustrated. I have been playing this game two weeks now. I can't get my rank any higher then 12-13 due to the amount of tunneling and camp killers. It's so bad that when I do play killer I just let survivors farm because I feel their pain. 
  • XavierBoah17XavierBoah17 Member Posts: 204

    I've had some pretty bad teammates as well. Also just had 5 games in a row where I got tunneled into the ground. We might be the only 2 killers on console that don't do that lol. Heading into game 6 with my fingers crossed xD

    Depends on rank and play style. For some killers they hate when you loop them or use flashlights to save teamates. I play games where i can loop killers and keep them on me then when they catch me they camp the 1 hook. Happens if you play too well for the killer.
  • darktrixdarktrix Member Posts: 1,529

    @thesuicidefox said:

    @fluffybunny said:
    We could use the argument that's coming from a place of empathy (it feels bad for the other side) or we could use the argument that waiting around for survivors to make mistakes is somewhat of a weak play style and often creates weak killers who don't know how to properly do loops or even how to track. Both are generally applicable when people rely on methods such as camping and tunneling down the weakest member (often the person off the hook).

    Exactly. While it's not necessarily against the rules to camp or tunnel, it just goes to show how bad of a killer you are when you always take the path of least resistance. You don't get better by doing the easy stuff and winning all the time. You get better by doing the hard stuff and taking the L once in a while.

    Ironically, its those killers that are the first to complain about how unfair or unfun killer is when the TRUTH is that they aren't as good as they think they are and ran into someone with more skill than them which they can never accept as being the case. It's always the games fault. Every game I've ever lost I can point to specific mistakes I made and say "this is why I lost". I don't blame the game or the players, I accept that I made mistakes (or sometimes that the other player made a really good move) and learn from it.

    Truth. They also put so much importance on the 4K that they stress to the point they are the ones making all the mistakes.

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