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Hatch = free NOED for Survivors

CymerCymer Member Posts: 435

The survivors always complain that NOED rewards killers for bad play.
But the hatch is like a free NOED in every game!
You can play perfectly as a killer but in the end you either have to slug one survivor (extremely fun and healthy gameplay) and search for the last survivor who is probably sitting in a corner or closet and is waiting for the other one to bleed out or die on the hook so he can go for the hatch or hook the poor one and hope that you find the hatch before the other one does.

Win condition Hatch. 2 gens need to be done.

And don't think of killers like Freddy who has absolutely no counterplay against a hatch-standoff!
He cannot grap a survivor unless he but them into dreamstate. If they aren't in dreamworld, they can simply walk up to the hatch. Buttdance and go as they please. 0 counterplay!

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Comments

  • douggie123douggie123 Member Posts: 536
    Agreed
  • AlphaJacksonAlphaJackson Member Posts: 472

    @Cymer said:
    (extremely fun and healthy gameplay)

    It is fun and healthy... for the killer.
    But, not too much we can do about the hypocrisy in this community, only hope that good changes are made; so just have faith that they'll fix it. Honestly, my problem isnt with the hatch, it's with the people who get it. 99% of the time, the most useless player gets hatch, and not the person who deserves it.

  • AlphaJacksonAlphaJackson Member Posts: 472

    @White_Owl said:
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    I know what you're getting at but I have to disgree, the hatch also rewards survivor for not working as a team, I know what I said can be seen as a counter to my previous post, but give me a second ye? If you are doing well then you should be allowed to get hatch. But if you blame your team for dying even when you yourself aren't helping (and no, I dont mean you specifically) then why should you get hatch. Like I said, it needs to be given to the right people, those who earned it, not to compensate because your team failed, as compensation implys reward for failure aswell.

  • CymerCymer Member Posts: 435

    @AlphaJackson Sarcasm - you need some in your life.

  • AlphaJacksonAlphaJackson Member Posts: 472

    @Cymer said:
    AlphaJackson Sarcasm - you need some in your life.

    is it illegal to make an actual point/observation?

  • SairekSairek Member Posts: 189

    @George_Soros said:

    @Cymer said:

    And don't think of killers like Freddy who has absolutely no counterplay against a hatch-standoff!

    God you're so incredibly wrong. Freddy has the BEST counterplay against Hatch. Slug the 3rd, hunt down the 4th. Simple. Any other killer may have difficulties finding the downed third survivor, after dealing with the fourth (unless they run Deerstalker).
    Not Freddy.

    I honestly can't understand all the complaints about Hatch. It's hardly a perfect concept, but the main goal is clear: the game must avoid a situation when the last remaining survivor has to repair one-two remaining gens, but cannot risk it, which leads to a boring half hour long hide-and-seek. Yeah the last survivor has a little easier time escaping, but that's not a big deal.

    But all it leads to instead is a boring half an hour staring contest.

    Or, literally five hours in some cases.

    In my opinion, the hatch should exist (primarily) to end the game as soon as possible. Right now it often does the complete opposite of that, sometimes extending games waaaay belong the length any half an hour hide & seek would go.

    In my opinion, the hatch should exist, but there needs to be less emphasis on it. The match is over, let it end. Survivor gets crows over their head if they're the last one left at an accelerated rate (unless they're already near the killer), reduce the rewards for the hatch for both sides. 3k = a "victory" for killer rather than needing a 4k for a "No One Escaped", bonus. Survivors don't get 7K BP for escaping via hatch despite the game being a defeat for them. Make them get 2.5k BP in survival or something for taking the hatch if the gates aren't powered already.

    The less incentive the hatch has, the less people would be willing to do a stand off and the more it can be used for its actual intended purpose instead of having an opposite effect, but it should still have some incentive so it isn't just a "I guess I'll die now" moment for survivors.

  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 4,876
    Just remove the hatch.
    If there's only 1 survivor left, activate the ravens unless the survivor is in the terror radius or repairing a gen.
    Give a repair speed bonus that stacks with left behind. 

    This would resolve the whole hatch standoff issue. 
  • HavelmomDaS1HavelmomDaS1 Member Posts: 1,307
    White_Owl said:

    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    That's not 100% true, the worst player in the team can get the hatch while the best players die. But I get what you mean
  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 4,876
    White_Owl said:

    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    NOED halves the amount of hits the killer needs to down a survivor. 
    He still has to track and hit them.

    Also NOED only punishes survivors that are to lazy to cleanse totems. 
  • YamaokaYamaoka Member Posts: 536
    A bad killer getting 4 kills after playing horribly because of noed is the same as 1 survivor escaping via the hatch? Ok then. Besides sometimes 1 survivor plays like a beast while the other 3 survivors just die instantly. That one good survivor deserves to have a chance.
  • HavelmomDaS1HavelmomDaS1 Member Posts: 1,307
    edited February 14
    Tsulan said:
    White_Owl said:

    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    NOED halves the amount of hits the killer needs to down a survivor. 
    He still has to track and hit them.

    Also NOED only punishes survivors that are to lazy to cleanse totems. 
    Which happens often in solo Q, I get very often lazy sacks as mates who hardly pumping gens and doing 0 totems lol
  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 4,876
    Tsulan said:
    White_Owl said:

    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    NOED halves the amount of hits the killer needs to down a survivor. 
    He still has to track and hit them.

    Also NOED only punishes survivors that are to lazy to cleanse totems. 
    Which happens often in solo Q, I get very often lazy sacks as mates who hardly pumping gens and doing 0 totems lol
    I don't understand why people don't do them. 600 points for a few seconds. Way more than what they get from repairing gens.
  • HavelmomDaS1HavelmomDaS1 Member Posts: 1,307
    Tsulan said:
    Tsulan said:
    White_Owl said:

    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    NOED halves the amount of hits the killer needs to down a survivor. 
    He still has to track and hit them.

    Also NOED only punishes survivors that are to lazy to cleanse totems. 
    Which happens often in solo Q, I get very often lazy sacks as mates who hardly pumping gens and doing 0 totems lol
    I don't understand why people don't do them. 600 points for a few seconds. Way more than what they get from repairing gens.
    I don't know either, lately so many killers are using noed that I thought "well, I did 4 totems now, SOMEONE has to do the last one"
    Nope, we all end up dying because noone did the last dull totem. It seems like no matter how often people die cuz of noed, they don't learn their lesson 
  • DelfadorDelfador Member Posts: 2,285

    @Tsulan said:

    I don't understand why people don't do them. 600 points for a few seconds. Way more than what they get from repairing gens.

    That is one of the misconceptions that killer mains have.

    Survivors do cleanse the totems. The problem is not that, at least for solo survivors.

    In almost every match, there are 1 or 2 totems that are hidden well. Survivors find the rest and cleanse them dooming rest of the team.

    This is why cleansing dull totems is a terrible idea for solo survivors. You don't know if your other survivor mates cleansed one, you don't know if the rest of the totems are in easy or okay places etc.

    Small game is not helpful because it still doesn't give you the information you need.

    There are 2 good ways to counter NOED. First one is detective's hunch. It is also a great counter to any other hex perk and I regularly use it.

    I don't want to rewrite the second counter but if you are interested, here is my advice to another forum user.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/277855#Comment_277855

  • NMCKENMCKE Member Posts: 3,469
    White_Owl said:

    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    What's stopping me from hiding in a locker until I'm the final survivor? The hatch should be earned in a different way than just being the last survivor in my opinion.

    I don't hide in lockers btw, just saying that the hatch is a hindrance to both sides. I had times where I would run a killer just to see my teammate sitting at the hatch, not doing generators. Luckily i-frames from my deliverance carried me to a pallet and I pointed out the survivor.
  • TsulanTsulan Member Posts: 4,876
    Delfador said:

    @Tsulan said:

    I don't understand why people don't do them. 600 points for a few seconds. Way more than what they get from repairing gens.

    That is one of the misconceptions that killer mains have.

    Survivors do cleanse the totems. The problem is not that, at least for solo survivors.

    In almost every match, there are 1 or 2 totems that are hidden well. Survivors find the rest and cleanse them dooming rest of the team.

    This is why cleansing dull totems is a terrible idea for solo survivors. You don't know if your other survivor mates cleansed one, you don't know if the rest of the totems are in easy or okay places etc.

    Small game is not helpful because it still doesn't give you the information you need.

    There are 2 good ways to counter NOED. First one is detective's hunch. It is also a great counter to any other hex perk and I regularly use it.

    I don't want to rewrite the second counter but if you are interested, here is my advice to another forum user.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/277855#Comment_277855

    Small game and detective's hunch are 2 counters.
    How much more do survivors need?
  • HavelmomDaS1HavelmomDaS1 Member Posts: 1,307
    Tsulan said:
    Delfador said:

    @Tsulan said:

    I don't understand why people don't do them. 600 points for a few seconds. Way more than what they get from repairing gens.

    That is one of the misconceptions that killer mains have.

    Survivors do cleanse the totems. The problem is not that, at least for solo survivors.

    In almost every match, there are 1 or 2 totems that are hidden well. Survivors find the rest and cleanse them dooming rest of the team.

    This is why cleansing dull totems is a terrible idea for solo survivors. You don't know if your other survivor mates cleansed one, you don't know if the rest of the totems are in easy or okay places etc.

    Small game is not helpful because it still doesn't give you the information you need.

    There are 2 good ways to counter NOED. First one is detective's hunch. It is also a great counter to any other hex perk and I regularly use it.

    I don't want to rewrite the second counter but if you are interested, here is my advice to another forum user.

    https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/277855#Comment_277855

    Small game and detective's hunch are 2 counters.
    How much more do survivors need?
    I think the issue is more that solos "need" them while swf can just communicate and use 2 other peeks which are more meta for chasing or doing gens
    I personally never saw a decent swf using these 2 perks and whenever solos are using these 2 perks against me (while I never run NOED anyway) they all die before even the last gen pops so it didn't matter in the first place. 
    U know what I mean? I think noed only really punishes solos, swf (like always) counter that ez
  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 3,503
    edited February 14

    @Sairek said:

    @George_Soros said:

    @Cymer said:

    And don't think of killers like Freddy who has absolutely no counterplay against a hatch-standoff!

    God you're so incredibly wrong. Freddy has the BEST counterplay against Hatch. Slug the 3rd, hunt down the 4th. Simple. Any other killer may have difficulties finding the downed third survivor, after dealing with the fourth (unless they run Deerstalker).
    Not Freddy.

    I honestly can't understand all the complaints about Hatch. It's hardly a perfect concept, but the main goal is clear: the game must avoid a situation when the last remaining survivor has to repair one-two remaining gens, but cannot risk it, which leads to a boring half hour long hide-and-seek. Yeah the last survivor has a little easier time escaping, but that's not a big deal.

    But all it leads to instead is a boring half an hour staring contest.

    Or, literally five hours in some cases.

    In my opinion, the hatch should exist (primarily) to end the game as soon as possible. Right now it often does the complete opposite of that, sometimes extending games waaaay belong the length any half an hour hide & seek would go.

    In my opinion, the hatch should exist, but there needs to be less emphasis on it. The match is over, let it end. Survivor gets crows over their head if they're the last one left at an accelerated rate (unless they're already near the killer), reduce the rewards for the hatch for both sides. 3k = a "victory" for killer rather than needing a 4k for a "No One Escaped", bonus. Survivors don't get 7K BP for escaping via hatch despite the game being a defeat for them. Make them get 2.5k BP in survival or something for taking the hatch if the gates aren't powered already.

    The less incentive the hatch has, the less people would be willing to do a stand off and the more it can be used for its actual intended purpose instead of having an opposite effect, but it should still have some incentive so it isn't just a "I guess I'll die now" moment for survivors.

    I want to make this very clear to everyone: the hatch mechanic and the hatch standoff are two TOTALLY different things.

    The hatch MECHANIC is necessary as a means to prevent killers from just getting guaranteed 4k's after killing only 3 survivors, and to prevent games where the last survivor just hides for an eternity. It's there because the game would both be unfair and unfun with just 1 survivor. And contrary to what you killer mains say, it's not a "free" escape. Survivors still have to collectively do 2 gens AND then the last survivor has to find the hatch and jump in without being found by the killer.

    The hatch STANDOFF is when both players are just standing on or near the hatch waiting for the other player to act, as the first to act in this situation loses. This is the only problem with the hatch and ultimately what killers (and survivors) hate about the hatch. So while the hatch MECHANIC itself should not be removed or changed, the STANDOFF does need to be addressed. I've made a suggestion in the past that was IMO a very good solution to the problem, as it would more or less leave the hatch mechanic as it is while addressing the standoff directly, such that it actually makes the game MORE interesting to play when hatch comes around. Didn't get much attention though. Maybe someone wants to necro it with praise? (If you don't like the idea that's fine too, just don't necro the thread to bash it, leave it in the grave).

  • George_SorosGeorge_Soros Member Posts: 1,436

    @thesuicidefox said:

    The hatch STANDOFF is when both players are just standing on or near the hatch waiting for the other player to act, as the first to act in this situation loses. This is the only problem with the hatch and ultimately what killers (and survivors) hate about the hatch. So while the hatch MECHANIC itself should not be removed or changed, the STANDOFF does need to be addressed. I've made a suggestion in the past that was IMO a very good solution to the problem, as it would more or less leave the hatch mechanic as it is while addressing the standoff directly, such that it actually makes the game MORE interesting to play when hatch comes around. Didn't get much attention though. Maybe someone wants to necro it with praise? (If you don't like the idea that's fine too, just don't necro the thread to bash it, leave it in the grave).

    There is no hatch standoff, just stubborn and stupid players. The whole thing can be solved by jumping/attacking. So you die. So you let the last survivor go. So what. I sure don't want to waste time looking at Meg for half an hour.

  • thesuicidefoxthesuicidefox Member Posts: 3,503

    @George_Soros said:

    @thesuicidefox said:

    The hatch STANDOFF is when both players are just standing on or near the hatch waiting for the other player to act, as the first to act in this situation loses. This is the only problem with the hatch and ultimately what killers (and survivors) hate about the hatch. So while the hatch MECHANIC itself should not be removed or changed, the STANDOFF does need to be addressed. I've made a suggestion in the past that was IMO a very good solution to the problem, as it would more or less leave the hatch mechanic as it is while addressing the standoff directly, such that it actually makes the game MORE interesting to play when hatch comes around. Didn't get much attention though. Maybe someone wants to necro it with praise? (If you don't like the idea that's fine too, just don't necro the thread to bash it, leave it in the grave).

    There is no hatch standoff, just stubborn and stupid players. The whole thing can be solved by jumping/attacking. So you die. So you let the last survivor go. So what. I sure don't want to waste time looking at Meg for half an hour.

    I usually just hit the survivor if I'm killer, or go do a gen if I'm survivor. I never just stand there and wait like a boob. I did that once as Trapper just to see what a survivor would do, and even though I was blocking the prompt and making it clear I wasn't going to attack she just sat there and looked at me. She had ample opportunity to go clear across the map and do a gen, in fact I was willing to sit there and let her do all the gens to escape through the gate. But she didn't do this. I do this because that's what you are SUPPOSED to do as survivor.

    The problem is that the standoff can occur in the first place. If a standoff couldn't even happen then I guarantee you would see a lot less people complaining about the hatch.

  • CymerCymer Member Posts: 435

    I just finished a game where I had to search around the last 3 min to find the last person. 3 gens to do. They let one guy just die on the first hook and then just hide. They didn't touched any gens. Thanks to surveillance I am 100% sure about that and after finding one guy and slugged him. I searched the map for 2 min until the poor man bleed out on the floor and the other one just hide to get the hatch. Both only played for the hatch.
    This isn't funny.

    Can't there be a mechanic that punishes the survivors when noone is touching a gen for over 2 min?

  • RSBRSB Member Posts: 2,259

    @White_Owl said:
    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    Tell me in which game, when the whole team fails, one players is rewarded for their braindead? CS? TF2? Battlefield or CoD? Something else?

    No. Hatch is a free win for one survivor, and completly denies the well-earned 4k for the killer.

    With all respect, if you can't finish 5 gens in 2019, where all gens can be easily finished in 3-4 minutes, then you deserve to get on hook.

    Killer should be able to close the hatch, and after 1 minute, if the survivor won't complete one gen (which would reopen the hatch), his aura should be permamently revealed to the killer. End of story.

  • George_SorosGeorge_Soros Member Posts: 1,436

    @RSB said:

    @White_Owl said:
    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    Tell me in which game, when the whole team fails, one players is rewarded for their braindead? CS? TF2? Battlefield or CoD? Something else?

    No. Hatch is a free win for one survivor, and completly denies the well-earned 4k for the killer.

    With all respect, if you can't finish 5 gens in 2019, where all gens can be easily finished in 3-4 minutes, then you deserve to get on hook.

    Killer should be able to close the hatch, and after 1 minute, if the survivor won't complete one gen (which would reopen the hatch), his aura should be permamently revealed to the killer. End of story.

    Which would lead to the very situation the devs try to avoid: survivor hiding for ages, since it's too risky to approach any generator, and with the hatch out of the picture, there's nothing else to do. No thank you. If you're so hellbent on getting your 4K, play Freddy, or use Deerstalker.

    Simple.

    @thesuicidefox : yeah I understand even the possibility of the hatch standoff is a sign of somewhat poor design, but I can't see a way around it (which doesn't mean there isn't one).
    However, what do you think about this: the only thing that I find really stupid is the BP reward for a Hatch escape. If anything, braving the remaining 1-2 generators when you're alone should be rewarded, instead of being lucky and stumbling upon the hatch. That extra 2K BP makes no sense at all. I'd very much like to have it removed.

  • CymerCymer Member Posts: 435

    @Cymer said:
    I just finished a game where I had to search around the last 3 min to find the last person. 3 gens to do. They let one guy just die on the first hook and then just hide. They didn't touched any gens. Thanks to surveillance I am 100% sure about that and after finding one guy and slugged him. I searched the map for 2 min until the poor man bleed out on the floor and the other one just hide to get the hatch. Both only played for the hatch.
    This isn't funny.

    Can't there be a mechanic that punishes the survivors when noone is touching a gen for over 2 min?

    @George_Soros said:

    @RSB said:

    @White_Owl said:
    As a killer your survival depends on other three guys that might be literally braindead? No.
    NOED rewards you if you fail as killer, the hatch compensates for having a bad team.

    Tell me in which game, when the whole team fails, one players is rewarded for their braindead? CS? TF2? Battlefield or CoD? Something else?

    No. Hatch is a free win for one survivor, and completly denies the well-earned 4k for the killer.

    With all respect, if you can't finish 5 gens in 2019, where all gens can be easily finished in 3-4 minutes, then you deserve to get on hook.

    Killer should be able to close the hatch, and after 1 minute, if the survivor won't complete one gen (which would reopen the hatch), his aura should be permamently revealed to the killer. End of story.

    Which would lead to the very situation the devs try to avoid: survivor hiding for ages, since it's too risky to approach any generator, and with the hatch out of the picture, there's nothing else to do. No thank you. If you're so hellbent on getting your 4K, play Freddy, or use Deerstalker.

    Simple.

    @thesuicidefox : yeah I understand even the possibility of the hatch standoff is a sign of somewhat poor design, but I can't see a way around it (which doesn't mean there isn't one).
    However, what do you think about this: the only thing that I find really stupid is the BP reward for a Hatch escape. If anything, braving the remaining 1-2 generators when you're alone should be rewarded, instead of being lucky and stumbling upon the hatch. That extra 2K BP makes no sense at all. I'd very much like to have it removed.

    That's exactly what happen. The survivor don't even attempt to do gens if there are only 2 left. They are pulling straws to see who dies and who gets the hatc

  • PoweasPoweas Member Posts: 3,405

    No, stupid. Adrenaline is the survivors NOED. It doubles the amount of hits u take to get down and NOED halves it. Stop complaining about the hatch. Slug for your 4 man or stop thinking your entitled to a 4 man. Honestly.

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