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We need more counterplay to locate the incoming killer

EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380
edited March 9 in 2.6.0 PTB

The 2.4.0, 2.5.0 and 2.6.0 patches increased the difficulty of the stealthy playstyle. Recently, with some new perks (Discordance, Infectious Fright) or powers (Legion's Instinct, Plague's Vile Purge - sick survivors vomit and are surrounded by a green fog!), or the buff of old perks (BBQ, Spies from the Shadows, Surveillance), the killer's ability to track down, directly or indirectly, the Auras or the locations of the survivors has been strengthened, as well as their ability to sneakily approach the survivors (Dark Devotion). It suits me well, but the counterplay must also be balanced upwards: the survivors need more effective tools to locate the killer nearby and gain a few seconds of escape or strategic retreat.


I ask you to seriously consider to buff both Premonition and Spine Chill. They were born when Whispers, Spies from the Shadows and Bitter Murmur were the only killer's tracking perks: today killers have dozens of interesting tools, so both of them should be revised. In the threads linked below I explain the reasons and contents of these possible buffs: in a nutshell, I appreciate their mechanics, but I would like a shorter cool-down (Premonition) and a little extra information (both).

Post edited by Entità on
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Comments

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 3,612

    Both of those perks are already fantastic at what they do and don't need changes. There is already if anything too many ways to locate an incoming killer.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380
    edited March 7

    @Eveline @Blueberry Read the linked threads, before replying: I don't want to transform them into killer's Aura reading perks or other awful things, not at all...

    @Tzeentchling9 I'm supposed to play according to my playstyle, not yours. The SWF-Solos gap is a huge issue, but powerful SWF don't use either Premonition or Spine Chill, as you know...

  • TheHourManTheHourMan Member Posts: 680
    edited March 7

    I would say just use stealth perks. That's what i do. Distortion, clam spirit, no mither. Makes it very ahrd for killer to track me.


    And Dance with me occasionally works well

  • PigNRunPigNRun Member Posts: 1,687

    Stealth isnt just staying in one dark corner motionless. Stealth is avoiding the Killer, sometimes requiring you move.

    Infectious Fright will only trigger once per match at most. It requires both players to be close to each other. Once they figure out h they have it, you can act accordingly.

    Killer Instinct (Legion's tracking ability) has the easiest counter ever. Just run away. It only lasts a few seconds and you already have the upper hand because of distance.

    As for BBQ, it got no buff. Its the same as it ever was at tier 3. They just made the tiers consistent, making it not shit. If anything, previous patches have (indirectly) nerfed it.

  • Tzeentchling9Tzeentchling9 Member Posts: 1,362

    So it's a playstyle to know exactly where the killer is at all times? Do you always use OoO, then?

    Playstyle has nothing to do with it, that is how the game is designed.

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 1,340

    Those perks are fine, they are not meant as a substitute for map awareness but to improve it.

    In any case I'm one that has no problem stealthing even against anti-stealth killers/perks, so I'm kind of biased.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380
    edited March 7

    @TheHourMan I'm not speaking of hiding perks. ;)


    @PigNRun No one wants to stay in a corner motionless. You are biased.


    @Tzeentchling9 Not at all, I want to know when the killer is arriving, to start escaping a few seconds before they arrive. I don't like Auras: I play immersive.


    @White_Owl Those perks simply ignore how the game has grown up since its release: they are "old", not adjourned to new multi-floor maps and new killers' abilities to find you.


    All of you: no "Premonition meta" nor "Spine Chill meta" is going to arrive, don't alarm. Against a good killer, they only give you a few seconds. How many high ranks survivors use them? Do you think 60 seconds of cool-down to know again the killer is within 12 metres in front of your camera are reasonable?

  • PigNRunPigNRun Member Posts: 1,687

    If I am biased, then what are you? All the tracking perks/abilities you mentioned are powerful against those who hide in corners, and strongly countered by actually stealthing.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380
    edited March 7


    There is a huge difference between correlation and causation: I don't stay in the corners, I look for totems and repair gens and rescue people. The fact someone hides in corners and those perks help killers to find them are irrelevant: I don't ask the killer's perks to be nerfed, I ask two old survivors' perks are adjourned to the new game mechanics to provide more effective info when the killer is arriving.


    @Blueberry You said Premonition and Spine Chill are fantastic: I agree to keep their mechanic, I don't want to transform them into anything else... I just want they have a minor cool-down (Premonition) or provide a little extra info (both).

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 3,612

    Yes, I said they were fantastic. Not, "I don't want to transform them into killer's Aura reading perks"


    I never said you were trying to make them crazy good. I simply pointed out that your small changes aren't needed because the perks are already good.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380

    @Blueberry Do you think 60 seconds of cool-down to know again the killer is within 12 metres in front of your camera are reasonable? It's trash, compared to the new Alert, which provides Aura reading, unlimited range and no cool-down.

  • shootaman777shootaman777 Member Posts: 83

    Stealth is an incredibly practical playstyle, provided that the stealthing survivor has some measure of skill at the game, of course. Stealth has evolved as perks and metas have changed, but in a sense, it hasn't changed in the slightest. It is and always has been transient at best, meant to be used to temporarily evade the killer until objectives are once more safe to complete.

    There's an incredibly effective tool to spot approaching killers, and it doesn't even require hearing the killer's terror radius - it's called USING YOUR EYES.

    You don't need a SWF to use your eyes - you can do it in solo, too. And just in case you're blind, Sprint Burst exists, so you can use it when the killer gets close to get to guaranteed safety, so you'll never even have to pay attention to the killer's approach.

    Premonition and Spine Chill are weak perks RELATIVELY compared to other survivor detection perks, because they're general survivor perks. Alert and Object of Obsession are far superior to them because they are teachable perks, and designed to be harder to obtain, as they require a grind to obtain. They're in a perfectly fine place, at the moment, like Deja Vu.

  • TheHourManTheHourMan Member Posts: 680

    I have been seeing a lot of people on these forums lately using the word "bias" to dismiss any argument a person has. As if being biased automatically invalidates what they say. "Biased" is the new "racist" I guess.

  • TheBeanTheBean Member Posts: 1,755

    I like playing stealth.. I don't think too much has changed perk wise with stealth. Seriously though, those 2 perks?..... They are fine as is. They are good for new players, and still work well for them. Those are training wheel perks you are meant to remove once you get better.

    The issue with stealth in the new PTB, is you are punished harshly by the emblem system for hiding. Once you get high in the ranking, being stealthy gets you punished.

    Otherwise.. The screaming perk the killer has... Isn't a big deal. Learning to use lockers helps with all killer aura perks too... so those aren't a big deal either.


    TLDR; I don't think the two perks you mentioned should ever be buffed more then what they are. Since they are new player perks that you should drop as you get better.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 11,260

    I've been playing stealthily since the game was launched. There are enough tools to find the killer, from perks like Premonition to game mechanics like the terror radius.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380

    @shootaman777 Dear mate, I fear you ignored the threads with the Premonition and Spine Chill buff proposals: there I wrote three examples... if a Wraith approaches you in the corridors and dark rooms in Lery, or the Spirit is silently lurching towards you in The Game, or a Hillbilly runs unseen to your wall tiles... If your eyes could always help, Premonition and Spine Chill were not in the game. I have unlocked all killers' and survivors' perks, so I have both Alert 3 and Object of Obsession 3, but I don't like Auras: they destroy the atmosphere, for me. I just ask for a shorter cool-down (Premonition) and a little extra information (both), without any Aura.


    @TheHourMan PigNRun wrote "Stealth isnt just staying in one dark corner motionless. Stealth is avoiding the Killer, sometimes requiring you move." and I replied I never did so and they are biased, if they think I ask these small buffs to stay in a dark corner all the trial. :(


    @TheBean Great, you got the point! I'd like they were viable at high ranks, because I love them. The killers have got many location and aura perks and add-ons since the game was born, and I'm fine with them... Even the neglected Spies from the Shadows got a buff: why couldn't survivors have the oldest detection perks more efficient, too? Mine is a humbly request: I'd like a shorter cool-down (Premonition) and a little extra information (both). No meta perks, nothing which breaks the game, not at all.


    @Orion Have you read the threads? :) Mine are very small proposals, just to adjourn these old perks to the game evolution and make them more viable at high ranks...

  • TheHourManTheHourMan Member Posts: 680
    edited March 7

    @Entità Why is being biased about this type of issue a bad thing? Bias will only effect the validity of a subjective statement. These are not subjective statements.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380
    edited March 7

    Because they give me false bad intentions, so they have a bias towards me or my arguments.

  • TheHourManTheHourMan Member Posts: 680

    So what? That doesn't really make what they say any less factual. Why would it matter how they felt when they said it?

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 11,260

    Racists are biased, and like all biased people, they get their conclusions first, and work backwards from that to find evidence that supposedly supports their views, while ignoring the evidence that doesn't. That's why debates with biased people never get anywhere - they've already reached their conclusion.

  • shootaman777shootaman777 Member Posts: 83


    You're absolutely right, I had not looked at either of those threads before responding to this thread. The reason being, that I had not realised that they were threads, rather than quotes. I'm a Sprint Burst user, as you can probably tell, since I'm clearly blind.

    The proposed Premonition changes are nice, but the Spine Chill changes don't seem to make much of a difference in the effectiveness of the perk, in my opinion.

    The three situations that you proposed are situations in which you wouldn't need to use your eyes to avoid danger.

    If you hear a chainsaw revving and terror radius sounds are getting louder, that's a clear indication that the Hillbilly is chainsaw sprinting in your direction, and you should immediately get clear of any long chainsaw lanes upon realising this.

    The older versions and your versions of Spine Chill/Premonition would not help against a killer on The Game, because the verticality of the map would not tell you whether the killer is on the same floor of the map as you, which is the more important information to know. If the killer has to detour to a staircase or hole in the floor to get to you, and they're originally in a different direction, those perks may put you on a collision course with the killer whilst trying to avoid them.

    A Wraith can almost always be hard countered by a flashlight, can be window/pallet juked while uncloaking, and can be heard while invisible from a significant distance away, so long as you do not place a noisy object between yourself and the killer. Being on Lery's doesn't change that.

    I still disagree with the main idea of your thread, since your argument seems to be based around not wanting to use meta playstyles/perks and having stealth gameplay/counterplay balanced around your ideal of gameplay rather than realistic gameplay (the meta is called the META for a reason, because it stands for 'Most Effective Tactics Available'). Intentionally handicapping yourself for a 'better experience' (in your opinion) is not grounds for universal buffs to all players in the aspects of your suboptimal playstyle that would require buffs to undo the self-imposed handicap.

    It's as if I were to say that all survivors need an extra perk slot because I always run Diversion and it's more often than not a waste of a perk slot, so survivors should get another perk slot. It just doesn't make sense.

    At the end of the day, nothing short of a total top-down rework is going to make Premonition and Spine Chill any more effective than the killer's Sloppy Butcher and Bloodhound - they're combos with good synergy, but neither combo helps with anything that the survivor/killer could've learned to do without them instead of relying on the unnecessary perk combo in the first place.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380
    edited March 8

    @shootaman777 I'm glad you read them. Those are simple examples, of course: I could have mentioned the Pig, Myers with EW 2/3 or the Nightmare. In this period I'm using both Premonition and Spine Chill: if both are available, crossing the data, I have fair hopes to save myself from the attack, moving away a few meters before starting to run. The type of map, the fog, the obstacles and many small mindgames make every single episode quite unique and difficult to reproduce on purpose. But they are weak, especially Premonition: it has a very too long cooldown and gives you generic info.

    First of all, thank you for explaining the acronym META: I knew its meaning, not why. I understand your objections: my style of play is not optimal, because I do not use the best perks of the inventory. I do not think they are decisive arguments. I see all too often "BBQ + Nurse + Sloppy + Ruin" or "Adrenaline + Dead Hard + Decisive Strike + Selfcare" that now I feel nauseous: it seems that the whole game revolves around these eight perks (with some secondary variations, just as effective, but however insufficient to determine a satisfactory wealth of the combinations). Thousands of lines of code to program dozens and dozens of perks that nobody uses ... I find it sad, and damn monotonous.

    Moreover, an efficient match requires complementarity: if everyone uses the same quartet, who will find Devour Hope or prevent the NOED, just to make a trivial example? Who will resume the gens left in half at the right time? We need a well-informed subject, able to watch their backs in critical situations, especially when the game turns to the final. Alert is great, powerful, without cooldown and with unlimited range, but I do not need to know that the killer is 150 meters from me ... I need to check my surroundings, because I'm not a master of escape from chases: sometimes I keep the killer for minutes, but it's definitely rare, so the Exhaustion perks are not for me. I follow the philosophy "prevention is better than cure": even the instakill of Myers is useless, if you can sneak away in time ...

    Finally, unpredictability is a crucial factor. I take BBQ for granted and I take my countermeasures, but Spies from the Shadows can ruin you just when you feel you have a hope: who is the one to pay attention to the crows, nowadays? The farsighted killer, who displaces opponents with unexpected choices, has from his own the card of the unknown, a powerful resource. Not surprisingly, Spies from the Shadows, a rubbish perk from ancient times, has been buffed and today has its own dignity. Even Surveillance, the meme ridiculed by everyone, has received some interesting tweaking. I believe that Premonition and Spine Chill, never modified since the dawn of the game, today deserve to be strengthened, so I have published my proposals. Because, each patch that is released, the killers earn new or better location tools (direct: Spies from the Shadows, Infectious Fright, or indirect: Discordance, Surveillance), I wish the developers would also update Premonition and Spine Chill in favor of the (very few) survivors who intend to locate the killer. I do not think it requires great efforts: they are simple buffs to implement, because they are consistent with traditional mechanics. :)

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 3,612


    It absolutely is.


    Alert isn't comparable. Alert gives you killer location information, it does not tell you when the killer is coming to you. Totally different perk in what it accomplishes.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,380

    @Blueberry Would you read and comment my penultimate post, immediately before yours, please? :)

  • TheHourManTheHourMan Member Posts: 680

    Everyone is biased about multiple things. Bias means you simply lean more toward one party's side than another. Between your family and a stranger, you are more inclined to save the life of your family. That is bias. Someone leaning more toward killer, for example, does not mean that their criticism of decisive strike is dismissible purely on the grounds that they are a killer main. Look at the actual arguments instead of dismissing them on the grounds of "well you have preferances about this subject"

  • shootaman777shootaman777 Member Posts: 83


    I disagree that Premonition is the weaker of the two (Premonition and Spine Chill). I used to run them both, for my first several hundred hours of gameplay (Self-Care t3, Premonition t3, Spine Chill t3, Empathy t1 was my old loadout). I used to call it the 'ultimate detection loadout' unironically, back when I used to run it in 2016. Spine Chill was never as useful as Premonition to me, because I'd swing the camera back and forth at constant speeds to proc Premonition on the killer from any angle. Whereas Spine Chill was always a 'too little, too late' perk that only told me when I was already found.

    The camera control skills I gained from using Premonition as a detection crutch carried me through my next 1000 hours of survivor gameplay, allowing me to manage camera control while looping to avoid mindgames and to spot killer from any angle without Premonition, by managing sight lanes. So, in my opinion, Premonition is an infinitely more useful perk to master, and is a must-use for newer players to develop good game sense.

    Lately, I tried using my old loadout again in about 30 matches, but found out that Premonition and Spine Chill never once helped to improve my awareness of the killer's position and how to stealth properly, because I do not feel the need to stealth unless we survivors in the current trial are in a position of disadvantage. Wasting the killer's time in an extended chase is far more valuable than wasting a pithy amount of the killer's time by having them do a perfunctory search of an area and not find me, after all, and I like to be useful to my fellow survivors who may not have the same ability to extend chases to ridiculous lengths.


    A Nurse's Calling and the new DS are garbage perks, and have no place in a meta comprised of the most effective tactics available.

    BBQ & Chili and Hex: Ruin are meta perks for every killer, but the other two perks are always a tossup between what is most effective for the specific killer. I'd list what each of them are, but that would take AGES to do and a lot of theorycrafting/remembering, so I'll take a pass on that for now. Some perks are just better or worse on specific killers. For example, a soft counter to the Legion (and hard counter to The Plague) is to not heal, so Sloppy Butcher would be a bad option to run on them, since it wouldn't give any noticeable benefits. Make Your Choice and Hex: Devour Hope form a potent combo on the Hag and Hillbilly, being able to camp outside of 32 meters from the hook an instantly return to down saviours/savees, but are far less useful on killers that lack mobility.

    Self-Care, an Exhaustion perk other than Adrenaline, and Adrenaline itself are meta perks for every survivor. The 4th perk slot is negotiable and can be tailored to a survivor's playstyle, generally either Urban Evasion, Unbreakable, Borrowed Time, Aftercare, Alert, Deliverance, Distortion, Bond, Iron Will, Empathy, Plunderer's Instinct, or We're Gonna Live Forever. Survivors who don't expect the match to last until the gates are powered, will run one of these perks in place of Adrenaline, too, in the hopes that it will let them survive long enough for the gates to be powered.

    I agree that the stale meta is stale and boring. But that's how games work - unless everything is just as effective as everything else (be it equally bad or equally good), there are going to be better and worse options, and picking those better options will increase one's odds of achieving victory.

    The devs have two options to change this - buffing non-meta options to be just as viable as meta options, or nerfing meta options so that they are no longer the supreme choice. But that's their problem, not ours.


    That is not what an efficient match requires. Survivors are so powerful across the board that specialisation is a waste on them. With a general meta loadout and good game sense/knowledge, a survivor can be master of all game mechanics. With a specialised loadout, a survivor can only be a master of a few game mechanics. It's not worth it to handicap oneself for no reason. There's no point to coordinating things like SWF squads' perks (one having Borrowed Time and other unhooking perks, one having chase-oriented perks, and the other two having genrush perks), simply because survivors can't choose who the killer chases, who they down, who gets saved/does the saving/gets chased while someone needs saving/etc. And it's pointless to designate this mostly useless label in advance to survivors when even the survivors with genrush loadouts can juke the killer for just as long as the designated bait survivor, with basic game mechanics accessible to all survivors in a match without need of a specialised loadout. Survivors, perkless/itemless/offering-less, are jacks-of-all-trades and fully capable of using every survivor mechanic to their fullest.

    Plus, the pallet reductions have reduced the amount of time survivors have to work with in terms of extending chases, to the point where it can often be better/more time-efficient (FOR SURVIVORS) to ALLOW THEMSELVES TO BE DOWNED AND HOOKED than try to extend a chase by a few seconds by using valuable map assets inefficiently. Survivors can make use of the fact that they have a lot of time for themselves and teammates to work with on the hook, and coordinate that to further a genrush while the killer is helpless against it. Even if it seems like they're giving the killer an edge, it actually helps the survivors.

    Who will do those things, you ask? Nobody, because they're all unnecessary if you're playing efficiently.


    Unpredictability hasn't existed in the game since August 2016 when SWF came out. Even if you're playing in soloqueue, odds are that you're being paired with a 2/3-stack SWF since majority of survivors play in SWF, and their lack of uncertainty can make the match much smoother for the soloqueuers in the same lobby.


    Spies from the Shadows does not have its own dignity, and its buff (singular, in the chance of triggering a crow giving a notification at t3 being increased to 100%) was meaningless. Back in the day, all maps were small and the 50 million crow bugs that plague the perk now, did not exist, so the perk was good to use. Nowadays, it has so many easy counters and so many bugs/ridiculous nuances that it's a waste of a perk slot to run. I used to run it all the time from 2016 until mid 2017, but even after trying it out recently, it's hot garbage. And it was NERFED in the PTB, being given a 5 second cooldown. No Surveillance change short of a full rework will make it anything more than that, too - hot garbage. Discordance detects multiple survivors working on the same generator, which they should never be doing anyways, since 2 generators can be completed in less time by 2 survivors working on them separately alone, than 2 survivors working on them together sequentially. Don't play inefficiently and the perk won't punish you. Survivors used to playing against Legion will already understand how to deal with Infectious Fright.

  • shootaman777shootaman777 Member Posts: 83

    @TheHourMan I think the problem here is that they are not differentiating between the GROSS bias that they are talking about, and the INHERENT/UNAVOIDABLE bias that you're talking about. Not all bias is the same, after all.

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