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The Idea of built in "Counterplay" is crippling new killers.

anarchy753anarchy753 Member Posts: 2,318

With Legion, the biggest issue that we saw, and probably the most vocal feedback was that there was no counterplay to his power. When he decided to chase you, you were put on a timer and going to go down. His power made hits trivial and his add ons made downs laughably fast.

Since Legion, the design of killer powers has taken a serious turn for the worse.

Both the Plague and Ghost face have been SEVERELY limited by having a majority of their powers put into the hands of the survivors. Their decisions limit entire aspects of the powers.

Plague's power is nothing short of depressing as a killer player. Yes, you can break survivors. That's great. You become an M1 killer with permanent exposed status. But that isn't really fun or interactive in any way. Instead, her more interesting effect, the corrupt purge, is entirely survivor based.

  1. Do you get Corrupt Purge ONCE in a match? If survivors choose not to cleanse then you simply have no access to the bulk of your power. As being broken often still means longer chases than facing corrupt purge, it's a common decision these days. (You know, the one time a month someone plays Plague any more.)
  2. But you can play around it still, right? Like I said, being an M1 killer isn't fun. She's a very animated killer and projectile vomiting should be enjoyable, but 10 seconds into a match your power no longer has a function.
  3. What about trying different add ons? Another large problem pops up with her; roughly half of her add ons ONLY serve a function with Corrupt Purge. These have now become bloodweb fodder because it's never worth bringing Corrupt Purge add ons when you may get into a match and never be allowed by the survivors to have the effect.

The Ghost Face (please rename him 'The Ghost') suffers a very similar fate.

His power is intended as "stealth," which we've seen done effectively in a number of different ways on other killers. None of them came with a loud honking megaphone yelling "I AM CURRENTLY STEALTHY, LOOK FOR ME!"

Furthermore, his power is entirely disabled, drained, and put on cooldown by looking at him. If there's one aspect survivors are 100% favoured in, it's looking around. There are 4 survivors all packing a third person camera that can spend most of the match looking at you from very long distances with no downside in most cases.


The point of this is, THIS IS NOT WHAT PLAYERS WANT WHEN WE SAY COUNTERPLAY.


Counterplay does not mean these fundamentally built in ways to disable killer powers, or deny their stronger aspects. At a glance in our existing killer cast we can see great examples of counterplay:


Myers - His power becomes difficult to use if you aren't tactical. Breaking line of sight makes tiering up take a longer time. He is slow to start the match but scales to a one-shotting beast.

All of these grant the survivors ways to play around his power to better their chances. Importantly; HE DOESN'T LOSE THE ABILITY TO STALK because survivors say "no thank you, I don't want you to stalk me this game." and don't interact with an object or some rubbish. There's no way to trap a Myers in a lower tier besides playing well.

He does have a stalk limit per survivor, but this only serves to limit him snowballing off one player all match, it doesn't prevent him gaining tiers through a majority of the match.


Huntress - Long range attacks, they take a degree of skill to use. Predicting the movements of survivors, and survivors seeing the direction you aim and predicting your intentions make her an incredibly skill-based and dynamic killer in a match. Again, there's no way to stop her reloading hatchets all match, no way to prevent her throwing them.


Spirit - An entire power based on mindgames. Sound-based perks assist both sides but none prevent her phasing or using her power, they just make it harder to use accurately.


Hag - Traps can be crouched over to avoid them, which allows for play when traps are present, but prevents avoiding them altogether in the heat of a chase. While her traps can be burned with a flashlight, this is not a default ability all survivors are bringing into a match, and has a finite limit within a single match.


TLDR; Many killers have counterplay without blatant, built-in mechanisms to turn off or cripple their powers permanently. Legion was ambitious and it didn't work out, but their failure shouldn't destroy every killer that comes after them JUST IN CASE it feels like the power might be useful.

Killer powers need to stop being put into the hands of survivors OVER the killer player.

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Comments

  • MochanMochan Member Posts: 2,886

    See, that's the "only one way to play" thing I was telling you about in the other thread.

  • ReddRedd Member Posts: 826

    When I play Plague, I run perks to end chases faster. Why is BBQ, Bamboozle, Enduring combo Plague bad?

  • PoisonNPoisonN Member Posts: 624

    But survivors are always saing that Plague is balanced

    Wich means: a potato that I can control.

    So the devs

    I don't know, I don't have hopes for Plague anymore. The only good thing about her at the moment is her design and voice acting

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 6,289

    I honestly connect with her thematically and visually more than most the other killers as well. She just isn't viable and it doesn't seem like the devs see that.

  • sorrowensorrowen Member Posts: 742

    Plague is great from a artistic stand point but not a practical gameplay stand point.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,550

    This thread is fundamentally polluted by an excess of emotion: many take their bad experiences with powerful and toxic SWF, and unduly raise that experience as a general rule. For example, I'm currently in rank 3, and when I meet the Plague, I never see all the survivors happily infected for the whole game.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,550

    Whoever believes he has the truth in his pocket and speaks dogmatically is a fanatic. I always use the fountains when I meet the Plague: I have no desire to have No Mither without even the hope of recovering from the dying state. And many think like me.

  • MonsterInMyMindMonsterInMyMind Member Posts: 1,373

    The Problem is the devs want to cater to one side because the majority is survivor and the minority is killer. If behavior would learn to see both sides of the equation and understand that making killers who's powers are controlled by survivors is an awful idea the problem wouldn't be as bad.



    I made a post kinda similar to this and i doubt behavior even noticed it your post is really good as well but dont count on behavior giving it the time of day they tend to ignore good feedback regarding designs of killers etc.

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 3,298

    Killers are supposed to have the power role in asymmetrical games but there are too many counters to Killers in this game. The Devs hold the Survivors hands like they're babies and yes some of them are babies but it's because they choose to suck that pacifier. Ghostface is a prime example of this, too many crutches for the Survivors, so many crutches for someone who can be seen, Wraith doesn't even have this many counters and he's ''invisible'', where's the logic people?

  • EguzkyEguzky Member Posts: 173

    There will always be bad built-in counterplay because:

    1) It's probably really freaking hard to make a good skill that's not broken to one side or the other

    2) The devs cater to the Survivors, so everything, including Killer mechanics, are made with a pall of 'What would not piss off the larger playerbase?'

  • MonsterInMyMindMonsterInMyMind Member Posts: 1,373
    edited June 2019

    I mean i have no problem with them responding to others but when a post that is pointing out clear issues within the design of killers etc and it gets no response and gets swept under the rug it just kinda show's that they've made up their mind what they wanna do and no one is gonna be able to get through the thick mind of the higher ups who call the shots.


    I mean i gave clear advice to them in my post and it never got a response even though it gave constructive advice for ways that they need to change the way they design killers.

  • MonsterInMyMindMonsterInMyMind Member Posts: 1,373
    edited June 2019

    Yeah it's a shame when the constructive advice goes unnoticed and the people who truly have a passion for the game in its entirety and want nothing more than this game to succeed cant voice their concerns over awful content because the design logic is flawed and very one sided.


    Although no matter how much my posts get ignored im not gonna resort to name calling or trash talking ill just simply continue to make memes out of awful designs like my ghostface meme.

  • dannyfrog87dannyfrog87 Member Posts: 432

    lmao @ over reacting. her power is useless .... i bought her in the sale and my god. wished i hadnt. should of grinded out more shards. her power works against her not for her .... theres not much of a penalty as a survivor as you can be looped too high heaven with her. do you even play killer? if not. go play both sides then come back. your tune will soon change lol

  • BlueberryBlueberry Member Posts: 6,289

    You are literally that teammate that screws everyone else over by cleansing and costs them the game.

  • EntitàEntità Member Posts: 1,550
    edited June 2019

    Do not try to derail the chain of answers.

    The OP wrote: "Both the Plague and Ghost face have been SEVERELY limited by having a majority of their powers put into the hands of the survivors. Their decisions limit entire aspects of the powers.", and some users added that the optimal playstyle is to never use fountains, to deprive the Plague of the Corrupt Purge. The message is clear: if the survivors refuse to use the fountains, the Plague cannot access an important part of her power. True. But how often does it happen? Maybe it's the rule when dealing with a perfectly coordinated full team, which prefers the state of Broken throughout the game. But full teams are a small percentage (according to official statistics): those who play alone or in pairs cannot risk so much, and often disinfect themselves by using the fountains, so the idea that the Plague is severely limited is wrong, because it arbitrarily extends the content of limited experiences to all cases.

    In fact, I replied: "This thread is fundamentally polluted by an excess of emotion: many take their bad experiences with powerful and toxic SWF, and unduly raise that experience as a general rule. For example, I'm currently in rank 3, and when I meet the Plague, I never see all the survivors happily infected for the whole game."

    And you replied: "This is what we call a Red Herring.", suggesting that my statement is false. Very arrogant in thinking that all those who report different experiences are in bad faith...

    Hence my final answer: "Whoever believes he has the truth in his pocket and speaks dogmatically is a fanatic. I always use the fountains when I meet the Plague: I have no desire to have No Mither without even the hope of recovering from the dying state. And many think like me."

    Do you doubt that I use the fountains? Do you doubt that I've seen other survivors using the fountains? Based on what do you dispute my statement?

  • Tzeentchling9Tzeentchling9 Member Posts: 1,796

    Exactly, once one clown cleanses, then everyone is forced to cleanse unless they want to face Corrupt Purge while broken.

    Then the Plague has her pick of fountains and starts snowballing the way she is designed to.

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