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Clown Has Been DBD's Worst Killer For 1 Year. He Needs Help.

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Comments

  • DathroDathro Member Posts: 29

    1) Ghostface isn't even out yet.

    2) While I would never say Leatherface is good, he absolutely must be better than Clown since his stats are exactly Clown, but with an actual Power. He can cut down pallets and instadown, and he bypasses a lot of the nonsense mechanics around unhooking since he can saw both players down.

  • ToastfaceKillaToastfaceKilla Member Posts: 170

    I think most of your points are valid, but its easy to get distracted when you say Clown is the worst killer, when its clearly not true.

    Trapper, LF and current Freddy are all far below him, and he sits roughly in low A high B tier, hes very much average in terms of power level compared to other killers.


    The point about his slow is true, and without bleach you do rely on survivors avoiding the gas or otherwise using the bottles to cause them to make a mistake, but then thats no different to trapper, or hag to some degree.


    Having a killer being reliant on 1 addon to make them decent isnt ideal, but its no different to many other killers.


    So yes, Clown could use a few tweaks, and could be buffed without troubling the top 3 easily, but hes by no means the worst killer in the game.

  • DathroDathro Member Posts: 29
    edited June 15

    You say LF, Trapper & Freddy are below him, but fail to give reasons why. You say Clown is between A and B tier and that he's average in Power, despite everything said in this thread, despite agreeing with me that his Power does nothing without bleach.

    It is not the same as Hag or Trapper, not at all. Those Powers are used out of chase. They then help you either get a free hook (trapper) or shorten a chase when you're in one later (hag), as opposed to Clown's Power, which as mentioned, doesn't even help in chase (the one thing it's supposed to do).

    Hag traps do not rely on mistakes. They're in your path and you get hit if you step on one against a good Hag no matter what you do. You might argue "stepping on Hag trap is a mistake":

    1. It isn't much of a mistake if there's no way to avoid this, which often times, there isn't.
    2. If a Survivor is godly enough to know where all the traps are, and loop away from them, their loops will be SIGNIFICANTLY worse than if the traps were not present, so in conclusion, she does not rely on mistakes at all, her Power is guaranteed value if used correctly.

    Trapper's trap, like Hag, forces you off a loop if one is in your way, or you'll very soon be on a one-way trip to the Hook, which is a lot more upside than Clown's addonless Power is ever capable of. You can argue these can be sabotaged, and failing to do so is a misplay, but:

    1. That often comes down to your teammates sabotaging them or not if you're in chase, and you have no direct control over them.
    2. It requires constant scouting of the Trapper, which is a resource that would not necessarily need to be spent against non-trap based Killers
    3. Sabo'ing a Trap is time spent not on a generator, healing, etc...

    Clown's Power does not shorten loops or give him a hit sooner - like Hag, and it does not threaten an instadown like Trapper. In threatens nothing.

    So how exactly have you reached the conclusion that he is better than Trapper? You can't say Clown's power helps with loops, as we've established it does not.

    He doesn't just rely on Bleach to make him good, he relies on it to make his Power useful in any capacity. That still doesn't mean he's good when he has Bleach. It just goes from actually useless, to slightly useful. And the fact that you still get kills with him sometimes is evidence of nothing except that Survivors are potatoes sometimes at all Ranks.

    I'm tired of people like you defending Clown as being a mid-table Killer without an explanation of why. I put together a thread debunking the mathematically false, but typical reasoning, and you reject it.

    I don't want you to tell me he's average, or strong, or weak but not the very worst. I want you to tell me precisely why. Address the points made in this thread.

    Post edited by Dathro on
  • LordGlintLordGlint Member Posts: 559

    @Dathro why do you insist that his slow is not benefiting him? While it's true that he himself gets a small slow when he throws a bottle, the amount is NOT the same as the slow a survivor would get. The survivor is ALSO slowed for longer than JUST the 2 seconds you keep mentioning, since you also have to take into account the time it takes for a survivor to walk through the gas. This is why its generally better to preplace the gas in a spot you know the survivor will want to walk through, so you can fully take advantage of the time it takes for them to get out of it. If I see a survivor wants to loop killer shake for example, ill toss a bottle through the window, towards the middle-ish of the room, before continuing with the loop. The survivor is then forced to walk the entire diameter of the gas, followed by 2 seconds after they get out. Any time they spend slowed is effectively doubling how fast you are closing the distance, It also denies the use of fast vaults, further slowing them down.

  • DathroDathro Member Posts: 29
    edited June 17

    Test it in KYF. You'll see that yes, while there is a little variance regarding how long they stay in the cloud, it is in any case so close to neutral that it's not clear the Power is worth using except niche situations.

    I mentioned in original post that it changes fast vaults into medium vaults, but you really need to stack that with a good duration of slow to actually overcome Clown's self-slow and get a net benefit. For this reason, Jungle Gyms are a spot where Clown can get some value from the bottle, but even that's really clunky due to how small the gyms are, since by the time you have a good angle to throw the bottle, and are also not already simply in melee range, the Surv is well on their way to the window already and it's too late to try throwing a bottle unless you throw one over the wall before you enter the gym.

    Also as Nephs mentioned, good Survs will see you pull the bottle out and just bail to the next loop instead of going through the gas and window like you want, buying time, because they know this is how Clown extracts maximum value.

    Let's say for the sake of discussion I'm wrong here, say the gas consistently shortens Clown's time-until-melee-range when chasing optimally as long as he touches a Surv with it. The question now is, by how much? Test it. This isn't the easiest game to do experiments on since it's difficult to run a loop identically multiple times, but you'll do well enough to see the Power yields pitiful results.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 2,210

    Can someone show a side by side of how long it takes the clown to reach a survivor with vs without using his power.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 2,210

    like in a straightaway?

    Because I don't buy that the slowdown when throwing is harsh enough to completely cancel out the hinder

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 2,210

    Like. Even if he moved at survivor speed for a full second after throwing his tonic. His average speed over the next 2 seconds:

    4+4.6 = 8.6

    compared to the average speed for the slowed survior

    3.4*2 = 6.8

    8.6-6.8 = 1.8 meters gained on the survivor

    Compared to without his power

    4.6*2 = 9.2

    4*2 = 8

    9.2-8 = 1.2 meters gained on the survivor

    1.8-1.2 = 0.6 extra meters gained by using his power.

    And remember, that's assuming the survivor stays in the gas for the absolute minimum amount of time possible. Every additional second is an extra 0.6 meters gained on the survivor (for a total of 1.2 M/S gained).

    Actually. Just for fun lets see how long he would need to slow a survivor if his power put him at a dead stop for 1 second.

    Using the power initially gives the survivor 3.4 meters of distance. Each additional second is 1.2 meters gained on the survivor so starting at 4 seconds of slow (3*1.2 = 3.6) you start to gain distance on the survivor, meaning if you can keep the survivor in the gas for 2 seconds (since it lingers for the remaining 2 seconds) then you will gain distance on the Survivor regardless of how big the slowdown on the power happens to be.

    That a good enough mathematical counter argument for you?

  • DathroDathro Member Posts: 29

    I think your argument supports my point. First I have to say I don't know that Clown is slowed for exactly 1 second, or that he moves at exactly 4m/s for it. Those are heuristic figures for sake of argument. I think it's pretty close. I would love to do such an experiment but setting up SWF and recording software would be a pain.

    0.6 meters gained to me is basically nothing if you compare it to the gain of any other Power. It's like when people say "Thanatophobia does nothing". It's not literally nothing, but practically the same as nothing since it's very rarely impactful enough to change the outcome of a given event.

    Lastly I would point out that standing in the gas for a full second is like running through the entire cloud. With good prediction you can force such a thing maybe a few times in a match if you're lucky, usually on really enclosed maps, but usually the Surv only runs through about half the cloud, inside for maybe 1/2 second.

    Getting them to stand it in for 2 seconds - you're talking strictly about unsafe pallet standoffs, forcing them to stay in it, which I mentioned in OP that bottles help here, however all Killers can generally get hits in these situations with good mindgames so it's pretty moot.

    If you want to party up on SWF sometime I would try to set up a day to test this with you.

  • chuckles5009chuckles5009 Member Posts: 24

    The current crown has a bigger problem than Freddy.

  • DathroDathro Member Posts: 29
    edited July 6

    Croquedead's (Godly Hag main) July 2019 tier list:

    "The Clown is definitely the worst Killer in the game. There's no doubt about it. He's hands down the worst f*cking Killer ever."

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OCfMpFNMJYg

  • se05239se05239 Member Posts: 2,825

    @Dathro Not surprised. The Clown's literally DbD's clown killer. Too much bugs, power's underwhelming because of his non-existent map pressure. Even the new Freddy has more going for him.

  • Dr_TrautsDr_Trauts Member Posts: 260

    Shame. He's got an awesome appeal to him with cosmetics etc. Only wish his power would be viable. or that he wasnt such a bug ridden mess

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