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Survivor GBU

============================================================================================================================================================================

================================= LETS TALK A BALANCE  =============================== ======================================================================================

So recently I did a short article about how I felt about Ghostface and it seemed relatively well received. I am calling these articles GBU (The Good, The Bad, and The Ugly). I hope you all enjoy these as much as I enjoy writing them, and we can only hope the developers are listening. Before you continue reading I want to express my philosophy when it comes to looking at game balance from a players perspective.

  1. It must be constructive and unbiased. I often see balance posts that propose fixes that make it better for the writer and their chosen side rather than the community as a whole.
  2. It should create meaningful in game decision making and add depth to the role. I have never been a fan of lazy killer/survivor mentality where players think the devs should just hand them the answers. The developers should not be playing the game for you. Neither role should play itself.
  3. Changes made should be possible within the current framework of the games identity and current state of balance. Something I see a lot when people write this kind of post are sweeping changes that would require too much work or redefine the games original identity. Additionally this also covers things that are related to the business aspect of the game. Ex. Decisive Strike being a core counter to tunneling yet soft locked behind DLC. The reality is that Behavior has to make money and they still make it available in the shrine.

Now I want to talk about the survivor role and hopefully bring to light to some of the problems. The community is split down the middle on a lot of things and there are a lot of player dynamics to attempt to please. Keeping everyone happy is not realistic but I hope to offer reasonable compromises. This is also a good time to site any of my sources for the facts behind my opinions.

Dev Data Sheets: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/61114/

DBD community vote tier list: https://dennisreep.nl/dbd/

Ghostface GBU: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/66706/the-sadface#latest

============================================================================================================== THE GOOD, THE BAD, AND THE UGLY. ============================ ======================================================================================

-The Good
  • The atmosphere as a survivor feels right for the game. One moment you are on the edge of your seat just barely getting away, the next moment you are embracing heroics and saving your team, when you get hooked you feel at a killers mercy. The entity and all the killers feel alien and strange yet hit home on specific familiar fears without over doing it.
  • The chase sequences in this game are amazing, alongside the several map settings keeping the game interesting. I would say the chase is by far the best part of the role for a lot of players.
  • A broad cast of survivors from several cultures, races, ages, and thickness (looking at you Jane). Most players can find a survivor that appeals to them.
  • The lore of each survivor matches their perks thematically and solidifies their identity. UnbreakaBill immediately comes to mind.
  • The emphasis on team oriented actions actually ups the horror aspect of the game because it takes some power out of the individual survivors hands and puts it in the teams hands. Like being saved from the hook.
-The Bad
  • Hit boxes seem to be questionable at times especially during vaulting. I am aware that windows were fixed a long time ago to be less safe so that they could not be infinitly abused but there needs to be a middle ground. As a killer main I will say there are times where I really should not have gotten that hit. This is something that might just need some adjustment.
  • The grind for survivor is very long. Even with We're going to Live Forever it just seems like its impossible to consistently get blood points by just playing survivor. I would propose shaving down some of the numbers of items in the bloodweb by 300-600 each. This might alleviate a little bit of the pressure without throwing the grind out of the equation. Right now its a bit too harsh. This might also help get people off killer and into the survivor role. Right now killer lobbies take way to long and survivors are instantly getting games if not facing the same killers. Increasing the amount of survivor dailies might also indirectly push people towards survivor a bit more.
  • Buffing and nerfing certain killers could supply some variety. This could even be done just by making changes to add ons every few months. Some killer add ons do not supply anything different and are just flat stats. Body Blocker Hag is far more fun than Considerably increases disarm time on Bear Traps. While those flat stat add ons are useful they don't offer anything unique. That or make new add ons that create new killer playstyles. A Trapper with a toolbox of different traps would be amazing. A lot of survivors get tired of seeing the same killers. I would love to see things besides Nurse, Billy, Spirit, and Huntress past green ranks.
  • Survivor perks that do the same things. There are a lot of perks in both roles that don't do enough and get out shined because other perks do their job better or are a bigger priority in the meta game. A good example is a perk like Hope. Hope is like a baby adrenaline that is kinda good but doesn't get used because AdrenaWin does it better. Why not have hope give the survivor movement speed on a cooldown when they rescue someone off the hook. This would actually be useful and thematic. Same goes for some of the never used perks like Slippery Meat or Sole Survivor. Revisit some perks, maybe even redesign them down the road.
  • Player tutorial. The current upgraded player tutorial is very good for new players and it really gets them into the atmosphere quickly. But I would like to see a resource guide for newer players that helps them catch up on some of the in game lingo and game mechanics. Warframe actually is a good example of this with their codex guide in the Orbiter. Knowing what looping is and how to do it is the difference between a survivor that knows kung fu and one that does not. Releasing view-able tilesets or just allowing survivors to enter kill your friends without a killer present could help them practice core mechanics of the game. You shouldn't have to scour youtube to learn the hard stuff. Even telling them simple things like taking tighter turns at loops to conserve distance would be helpful. Its something I tell new players all the time that isn't obvious. I would really like to see the devs embrace and provide more info to new players rather than being like "Here's your unicycle, this is how it works. Bye have fun."
-The Ugly
  • Disconnecting is probably the largest problem for the survivor community at the moment. The game is balanced as 1vs4. The moment someone presses leave because they get salty,a killer brings a mori, add ons they don't like, or tunnels them down, the whole game is now killer sided. I know that dedicated servers are coming. BHVR please for the love of god, punish people for leaving the game and screwing the other three people over. This is the one thing that needs fixed more than anything else. It isn't fair that these leavers are not given any sort of punishment. These people need a scaling time out timer to discourage this [BAD WORD].
  • On the other side of the DCs there are some specific killers that I know are causing these problems. Namely Billy and Nurse. Now I am not the first person to argue changing these two top tier killers and I won't be the last. I do not think they need to be nerfed into the ground. I do think they need some tweaks to their counter play. Nurse is a high skill cap character that is nearly impossible to play on controller. The Nurse master race almost solely exists on PC and it would only need to be changed on PC. Nurses kit requires spacing, timing, and precision but once its been mastered it is very hard to balance. I have never played a game where blinking was not a strong mechanic. She completely mitigates all defenses that survivors have. My changes are a little more subtle. The current counterplay to nurse is to deny her line of sight and be wary of open spaces. Counterplay should be more obvious especially since she is over performing with meta perks like BBQ, RUIN, NOED, ect. I would propose nerfing her tracking ability by removing her ability to see scratch marks and possibly darkening her stun after blinking like the Legion. As for Billy he might be a bit more tricky, because I do not think it is Billy's kit making him over tuned, it is BBQ and RUIN. Have a conditional cooldown on his ability. If he uses it to charge across the map then it goes on a cooldown if he doesn't hit a survivor. This would alleviate some pressure and make him actually interact with survivors.
  • Toxicity needs to be addressed in the community. There needs to be a line drawn between playful competitiveness and outright bullying. Obscene names need to be addressed alongside a possible chat filter once the dedicated servers arrive. Survivors should not be spamming the chat after game or saying certain out of line things. This needs to be addressed on both sides. BHVR needs to take a stance similar to that of Riot Games, saying certain things regardless of context need to result in a zero tolerance ban. It is 2019 we are not barbarians, people need to learn some self control. When someone has a name filled with racist profanities and homophobic slurs its probably needs to be ban out. Its not edgy, its not cool, its part of the problem. Additionally targeting someones steam profile and outright harassing them needs to be outright bannable when its taken too far. When someone gets all their friends together and attacks someones steam profile that is straight up harassment no matter the context. BHVR needs to take a stand and make a statement for the long term health of the game. This may also relieve the negative image of SWF in the minds of Killers.
  • NOED needs to be a little easier to disarm. Dull totems should be cleansed a little faster while lit ones should take longer to cleanse. This would be a fair compromise. Killers can keep their ruin,devour hope, or Thrill of the Hunt a minute or two longer and disarming NOED isn't impossible when your team is a bunch of potatoes. NOED should be keeping the survivors honest and invoking fear of the late game, not oppressing the player base and enabling lazy killers. Thrill of the Hunt may or may not need to be changed.
  • There needs to be more consequences for killers that break chase with a survivor they have not hooked to go and tunnel a survivor that is closer to death. Picking the survivor coming off the hook as your target instead of the person that saved them should be discouraged. Still a valid strategy but there should be a downside. Tunneling in the early game really needs to be discouraged and this would alleviate some of the problems. The tunnelers goal is to make it a 3vs1 as quickly as possible and cripple the team. This is swaying games in the killers favor a bit to much and hurting the survivor community. More bloodpoints could entice some killers to give survivors a chance to actually play. This is most egregious in the solo environment. Punish the obvious tunnelers and reward the ones that create actual momentum. Interaction needs to happen. Tunneling is efficient in the mid and late game but you should not be getting outright tunneled in the early game.

========================================================================================================================== Closing Statement =================================

I hope you all enjoyed the post. I know its going to be controversial, after hundreds of hours spent in this game and with this community this is what I have found to be the most immediate problems for the survivor role. I started as a killer main and have started playing more and more survivor and seeing the problems. I hope to do a killer oriented post soon. We can only have faith that Behavior will see that some things are actually problems. Tunneling down people after their first hook is an actual problem. Toxicity is an actual problem. I have seen a lot of survivors that just DC the moment they hear nurse scream or billy chainsaw. These things need to change so that Dead by Daylight can have a long and healthy life span. I want to see new players stick around and enjoy our awesome community. It starts with small healthy changes and a little bit of time and effort on the devs side to actually listen to us.

============================================================================================================================================================================

Comments

  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 275

    I’ll give my personal opinion about this.

    I think that making the game more challengin by giving different ways to play a killer such as addobs that actually implement different mechanics or change the game style of a killer or survivor will keep prople entertained and give the game depth. Having +50% movement speed on a m1 killer doesnt exactly bring out the fun. On the other side a new mechanic must have a counterplay.

    i like the ideas behind your billy changes. His kid is op cause he got no downsides on flying everywhere with that chainsaw.

    Adressing the dc problem should be the main event BUT Im seeing a lot less dcs now. Why? Because leaving no longer saves your pip.

    regarding the names I wouldnt insta ban a player for a name thats offensive for you. It would only generate tension imo.

  • ReikoMoriReikoMori Member Posts: 1,226
    edited June 10

    I have some disagreements about the things said about killers.

    Firstly, I don't understand why killers needed to be punished for playing as efficiently as possible to complete their objective. That would be like killers asking survivors to be locked out of doing gens if they finish one too soon into the match. There is already plenty of options people have to mitigate the tunnel as a team and as an individual. Survivors should be willing to help someone whose getting tunneled, but instead they place for what is most efficient and push the gens. So, why does the killer need to be punished for putting the work in to have the same type of efficiency gameplan?

    Secondly, I disagree with the notion that NoED needs to be easier to stop when you look at its history and see that in its current state it is the most balance it has ever been and could ever be. Doing dull totems isn't a long endeavor to undertake and survivors have all the tools necessary to find and cleanse totems quite easily. They are choosing not to cleanse totems and people on this very forum has even said they aren't going to cleanse totems. The devs have made them as enticing as they can in terms of scoring bp. Players still don't do them and that is how they play while totems are literally spawning next to the gens. Also, if the idea is for this article to be an objective look then maybe calling players who use NoED in a game where 3-8mins is the norm might not be appropriate. Calling players lazy for NoED has been a thing forever now and I don't think that is a fair or respect way to refer to other players.

    To cycle back to the tunnel punishment again. You want players to be rewarded for creating momentum, but how does a killer create and sustain momentum? By killing someone so the survivor team is less able to work the map. Wounding survivors doesn't do much to create momentum when the response for most killers is to "play hurt". They stay injured and push through gens all the same and then heal just before the last gen is done to optimize their escape chances. What should the killer do when they're 2-3 gens down? What should the killer do when one chase to down can easily be converted into 1-2 gens completed? You have to build momentum so getting people on hooks to force the hands of survivors are your best bet if you don't have instadowns which 90% of killers don't. So if you can get a person on struggle hook where people have to make address that situation that gets your momentum.

    Killers can't be simultaneously a threatening opposition and responsible for making sure everyone has fun. We know that survivors tend not to have fun and feel targeted if they go down early in the game or get outplayed. We also know that when killers are forced to play sub optimally to ensure a sense of fun the killer stops having fun. Bloodpoint increases don't fix that.

  • ThePaleKing_ThePaleKing_ Member Posts: 64
    edited June 13
    1. Tunneling is only something that needs to be addressed in the early game. It polarizes new players and older players alike. Tunneling isn't the overall problem. Its defining when it is an acceptable strategy. It is very efficient and acceptable, but what is causing a lot of games to be killer favored is when target tunneling occurs. After returning to the hook there is no reason to tunnel down the injured one when a fresh chase is right there. There is no reason to break a chase with a survivor you have not hooked to go target the one coming off the hook. It is very bad for our community as a whole and many content creators agree it is extremely scummy. I have mained killer for most of my 4000+ hours on the game. It is not a punishment it is something that needs to be discouraged via the emblem system. Killers that rely on "efficient elimination of a single target" is likely not patroling gens, or tracking, sometimes they are leaving winnable chases and just picking on the weakest link instead. The killer is not working at all when they are doing this. Do not assume I am talking about all killers like I am picking sides. There is a small minority of scumbags doing this every single game.
    2. I am not calling all killers lazy for using NOED it is a perk that attempts to keep survivors honest. If you rush the game into late game you will need to fear NOED. NOED is being used as a catch me all replacement to ruin. Instead of working to apply pressure early and mid game they are letting survivors blast through the game and then relying on NOED to get their win. It is very dissatisfying to have a killer not assert any pressure all game then get kills late game for free. That killer probably won't even pip off it. Neither will the survivors because the killer did not interact with them all game. It is a lose lose situation. NOED belongs in the game. But as it stands right now. There is a minority of lazy scumbags using it to stagnate the rank system. Disarming NOED even with Small Game equipped as a solo survivor is not realistic. Even in higher ranks, NOED usually goes off. Make the dulls cleanse a little faster, just a few seconds. Then make the lit totems (this includes NOED if it goes off. this includes ruin.) a little bit longer, you might actually be able to defend Ruin for once instead of it insta poping. If NOED goes off after this change, its now harder to get rid of. I would also be on board with hiding ALL totems a lot better to compensate for the cleanse change. You know, not having your Ruin/Dulls spawn right next to the damn objective! Survivors and killers need to stop defending their position and try to meet one another half way. There are 5 hidden dulls on the map, half the time you cannot get that 5th one unless everyone is cleansing. Which is not happening. The killers presence alone can create pressure. Full SWF squads are the minority based on dev data so don't even try to pull that excuse.
    3. If you are relying on any perk or add-ons to create momentum for you it is very likely you are not playing as "efficiently" as you claim. Go watch TrueTalent or EdgarAllenBro or Umbra and see what efficient actually looks like in case you need examples. Tunneling does not make you efficient, skill and game knowledge does. All of these content creators have that in spades. Tunneling is fine as a strategy, but it should be a decision you make based on the how the game is going. Not a go to strategy after you hook one person. When it is your go to strategy it is frustrating for the survivor on the receiving end of it and you are being lazy. When a new player is having this done to them it is outright unfair to that person. They bought this game just like you did.
    4. Please remember this is a video game not your serial killer training. Some awareness of the needs of others could do this community some good. Being a killer main is easy, being a good one is very very hard. I will be posting a Killer article rather soon talking about some actual problems the role has in case you are interested.

    @ReikoMori

  • ThePaleKing_ThePaleKing_ Member Posts: 64
    edited June 13

    @premiumRICE Thanks for the response. I know I sound harsh on the name thing. I would repeat some of the names I have seen in game but it will 100% get me banned from the forums. There are some that outright go too far. There are others that are toxic but acceptable. Extremely derogatory names are the worst offenders. There is a difference between "oh no that name offended me" and certain key words that are filtered in basically all mainstream media and generally frowned upon by society. I think you can guess what words I am talking about. There are bad people on both sides. By not taking a stance the devs enable certain kinds of people. Thanks for giving the article a read <3 <3 <3

  • premiumRICEpremiumRICE Member Posts: 275

    I think that issue should be addressed by steam at this point, since the name changing is from steam. Btw, It feels a report button is needed, indeed but I don’t think the instaban would be efficient. Just give small penalities and I think that will solve it. Maybe if it persist a ban will be nice indeed.

  • ThePaleKing_ThePaleKing_ Member Posts: 64

    @premiumRICE

    I am not sure if steam actually cares. A report button would help. I think people assume I am generalizing. In reality taking some sort of stance on toxicity would help the over all health of the game. I personally don't care how lenient or harsh they are about it, so long as the extremely derogatory names are out of the game. I know that Riot just forces you to change it once it is flagged, and then bans you out for a few days. The reliance on steam makes this situation harder than it should be.

  • TrueKn1ghtmar3TrueKn1ghtmar3 Member Posts: 1,143

    Two points:

    1.) Yes i tunnel, but only if you unhook in my face, you did not care for your teammate to ensure i was not there, then why should i if he is going on hook for the second time?

    2.) As for more spicy killer add-ons id like to see an iri wraith bell that snaps you out of invisible when within 10m of a survivor XD

  • ThePaleKing_ThePaleKing_ Member Posts: 64

    Ooo I actually kinda like that Wraith add on idea, after unhooking in the killers face it doesn't count as tunneling in my mind. Unhook perks need to have a safety timer like they did with We're gonna live forever. Don't farm your friends.

  • PwnyFishPwnyFish Member Posts: 70

    Hmm, I am not sure if tunneling is the killers fault or the stupidity of your teammates. Maybe both.

    1 thing that can improve that, is giving survivors more information about other survivors. Like status symbols if someones on a gen, on a totem or being chased. If someones hooked it might be good if they can see the aura, maybe with some limitations, I am not sure. But 1 thing is sure, the available information for solo survivors needs to be increased.

    I dont agree about billy. The only thing in question would be the charge time reduction addons. Also, Billy's addons need a rework anyway. I agree that it would be great, if the (pink and purple) addons would change a killers playstyle. Some do that already.

  • ThePaleKing_ThePaleKing_ Member Posts: 64

    @PwnyFish Thanks for the response bud! I don't assume I am right on everything. The first thing is admitting these are actual problems rather than never seeking to improve the game for BOTH sides. If the devs would just throw things on the PTB more often things might actually get fixed.

    Billy over performs across all platforms according to dev data. He is the number 1 killer in the game while Nurse is at the top of PC. It is too easy to create pressure as Billy because chases can end too quickly. He punishes survivors for the slightest mistake when Billy can make several mistakes and not be punished. A lot of the community doesn't want to deal with Billy. Nurse at least requires micro intensive gameplay and a lot of muscle memory. Billy is just timing and spacing which can be developed on any killer.

    Could be his add ons or it could be that he has too much mobility. He is the only killer that gets practically free insta downs at base. Mikey has to stalk and the others need add ons to get exposure. Billy just has it and its easy to get on someones booty and end the chase instantly. It may also help if they fix the chainsaw hitbox.

    The articles aren't supposed to be the end all be all for what should or shouldn't happen, just to get peoples brains moving in a constructive way. <3 <3 <3

  • PwnyFishPwnyFish Member Posts: 70

    What data are you talking about exactly? Because most stats ive seen, are essentially useless to determine the "strength" of a killer. For every single killer you have addons, maps, ranks and SWF that heavily influence the "strength" of a killer. As long as we dont have the information on which addon with which killer on which map on which rank(ignoring SWF) was used, its not worth a lot(maybe they showed that and I missed it?).

    Look at the data you showed. Do you really want to say that Hag and Trapper are as "OP" as billy? https://us.v-cdn.net/6030815/uploads/398/4A494UUNC0WZ.jpg

    Now that Data might even be more screwed, because of a quite flawed ranking system, which could mean uneven skill on the same rank for survivors and killers.

    Thats why I said, generally speaking, I like your post. I just disagree with a lot of balancing issues you suggested. Its definitly a useful post, unlike so many other posts on this forum which give me a headache..

    Something im curious about, is there a datasheet that shows the general rank distribution for survivors and killers? That might be something to start to look at. If its not something close to a Gaussian curve, you know its bad.

    Nonetheless it would still have the issue of different killers having different powerlevels. Thats also a reason why I have high hopes for the dedicated servers and individual killer ranks. These 2 things will make it a lot easier for Behavior to gather actually useful data which they can then use to influence the balance.

  • ThePaleKing_ThePaleKing_ Member Posts: 64

    @PwnyFish

    Hag and Trapper have high kill rates, but if you look at play rate its very obvious who is favored. Hag and trapper are just capable of camping out kills very easily which isn't the same as over performing. Kills don't equate to being a top tier killer. You also have to remember those graphs are across ALL platforms. So nurse gets gimped because of controller. Also Billy and Nurses kill rate get gimped even more because a lot of people get told they are the strongest and go immediately too them before they are ready. I'd say Nurse especially. Billy not so much. Any pilot with half a brain can pip as billy. I'd like to see a graph that says which killers single and double pip the most often.

  • PwnyFishPwnyFish Member Posts: 70
    edited June 18

    Thats what I said, the killrate data doesnt show a killers strength, but you refered to somekind of data from the devs. You said "Billy over performs across all platforms according to dev data". Which data were you referring to? I just assumed it was the high killrate which was in the graphs you linked in your post.

    Billy is strong and free2play, its obvious that he has a high popularity. If nurse would be as strong on consoles as she is on pc she would be first there as well. Also the popularity only shows which is the most popular, you dont see by how much. What if billy is played at 25% rate and then hag is at 24%? So again, not much information gained balance/strength wise from the popularity graph(in relation to other killers).

    If you know about some other data that you havent linked in your post, please show me.

    Cheers

  • ThePaleKing_ThePaleKing_ Member Posts: 64
    edited June 25

    Ignore this post

    Post edited by ThePaleKing_ on
  • ThePaleKing_ThePaleKing_ Member Posts: 64

    @PwnyFish

    I would advise you to actually play solo survivor. Watch how often you see a Hag. 1 in 15-20 games. Anybody that's actually played survivor can attest how common Billy is,you don't need a percentage to show whats obvious if you actually play the game for more than a few hundred hours. Nurse is basically the only thing you see at red ranks with some Billy, Huntress, and Spirit thrown in from time to time. They don't need nerfed into the ground they just need to be looked at. I'm fine with their power level, I just want some kind of built in counterplay that actually gives survivors interaction because there isn't any right now.

    Current Counterplay

    Nurse: break line of sight, avoid open places, flashlight her when shes stunned, try to hide when shes stunned.

    breaking line of sight is a soft counter that does nothing against a seasoned killer who can guess your general vicinity or use sound to pin point you. Some maps are just death against nurse. You are usually downed before shes stunned. Pallets mean absolutely nothing to nurse.

    Billy: block his path with objects/structures, force him to M1 by looping him really hard, hide from BBQ with lockers to end his pressure chain, attempt to dodge the chainsaw,

    If he gets close enough to you the chase ends immediately, being a god at looping shouldn't be the only discernible counterplay, that's unrealistic. Hiding from BBQ is one of the few things you can do, but then he can just abuse the rest of your team and chain pressure off them, good luck trying to dodge that hitbox and if he has add ons you are basically boned. His kill rate is still in the top three across all platforms along with being one of the most popular.

    I'm not buying your argument. It's common knowledge they are both broken as all hell.

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