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Please stop with the “rework Legion” nonsense.

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  • My suggestion is what you're thinking. In a way, that is the whole point of my suggestion. Nerf the killer's pre vault just a little bit but bring the old speed back and remove the miss penalty. You're absolutely reading my mind.

  • miaasmamiaasma Member Posts: 911

    what i meant by that statement was that there shouldn't be a killer with uncounterable game mechanics - that was what pre-rework legion was

    is that what it needed to be in concept? of course not, but it was how it functioned. the people denying this either never played against it or were so enamoured by it that they don't want to accept it

  • OdimmOdimm Member Posts: 33

    You are absolutely right, there shouldn't be a killer with uncountarable game mechanics. Oh wait, Nurse is still in the game... and don't start with jukes as counterplay to her, 5-blink mommy will get your best parts regardless.

    On a serious note, I don't want this to become a Nurse rant but the argument of "counterplay" is silly imho since it obviously doesn't apply to all Killers in the devs eyes.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,063
    edited July 2019

    I think a big problem is that people want to keep Legion's 115% speed, while also keeping his old FF speed. At least from reading this, is what it sounds like. The devs have said that they can't do that because he would basically be able to move across something like half of a big map in one FF, and if they get a hit, then it refreshes. If you want to move fast while in FF, you have to give up your current 115% speed. Legion is faster overall, he just doesn't move much faster while in FF. Missed attacks ending FF is good counterplay, whether you like it or not. The real thing that needs to be looked at is the addons. As for vault speed, as they said, it feels slow because of the animation. They were talking about speeding up the animation to make it feel better.

    People claim Legion is slower but let's look at the facts:

    Before: 4.4 MS(or 4.2, not sure if he was 105% or 110%, but I think 110%) + 5.28 MS during FF + 6 seconds of FF.

    Now: 4.6 MS + 5.0 MS during FF + 10 seconds of FF.

    Let's compare 20 seconds of movement:

    Before: 93.28 MS(if it was 110%, if it was 105% it would be 90.48)

    After: 96 MS

    Now 10 seconds:

    Before: 49.28 MS

    After: 50 MS

    Believe it or not, Legion is actually faster post-rework.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,103

    I have always assume, that it depends on the undone changes, how much of the few advantages the current Legion has, got also undone.

    If they just undone something small, like the vault speed, or the tr radius, the new default Legion speed could stay imo.

    On the other hand, would they undone the frenzy mechanic, or/and the deep wounds mechanic, it would of course necessary, to reduce the default speed of the Legion again.

    And sorry missed attacks are unfun. That is, what it is. It also doesn't fit with the archtype of a fast moving and stabbing killer, if we take movies with those killers in mind.

    Killers of this archtype have usually 3 rules:

    Rule number 1: They are fast (ok that one is obviously).

    Rule number 2: They attack fast, sometimes including missing hits, but that just underscores their wild nature and the wild nature of their attacks.

    Rule number 3: They don't have a long attack duration. That is their drawback. They attacking fast, but their attacks ending also fast. They are the rogues of the killer universe, if we like to say so.

    I have also play the Legion on this way, pre patch. And that was also a reason why I had play without addons, so that the feeling of a short but powerful attack was even stronger.

    Well that and I have dislike the op addons -_-.

  • RiddickRiddick Member Posts: 121

    It is actually.pretty good for someone to put this into perspective. It is not that Legion needs a rework, but some of his values and add-ons need to be changed for him to be fun to play as. He has far too many drawbacks for using his power as it is right now as well.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 7,672

    @No_Mither_No_Problem

    You’re missing the point. 

    Those numbers don’t matter because FF isn’t meant to be also used as a traversal tool. It’s simply meant to be fast enough to ensure Legion can inflict DW on as many in range survivors as possible, which it still is sufficiently fast enough.

  • RiddickRiddick Member Posts: 121

    I see your point but you are also missing his point: the survivors can loop you the entire duration of FF since you are basically a 115% killer whose vaulting speed is bad and can't catch them whether they use windows or pallets. You can only guarantee hitting the survivor(s) if they are close and in the open. Otherwise, you might as well just walk towards them. As I said, some numbers on him and add-ons need to be tweaked. No need for a full rework.

  • Well, that is not fast enough. It can't be used as a traversal tool because walking with 115% is just better and it also has a 20 sec cooldown along with a 4 sec fatigue.

  • And this is what i get with Hag after i barely get 2 kills and 32K bloodpoints. Against an SWF.


  • ReikoMoriReikoMori Member Posts: 1,308

    That's a misinterpretation of data. He can travel a further distance overall in FF now, but a much slower rate. You can't stack the base movement speed with the FF speed when doing your calculation as you're going to skew your math everytime.

    I'm perfectly fine with shifting back to 110% base if that means I can move and vault faster in FF. I have always felt that the 115% movement speed change was just because they knew they were about to essentially destroy Legion's mobility and didn't want it to seem as if all the things they did were that bad.

    They could have easily just made it so while in FF players couldn't Lunge which would have instantly solved the hyper speed exploit from repeated missed lunges. Exploit gone and you don't have to take away FF's movement speed. You already added in missed hits cancelling the FF so they added two fixes for one problem and then still said, "Let's lower the speed significantly and slow the vaults by 25%.". If they felt the survivors needed a bit more space on the vault they could have lowered the speed by a mere 10 to 15% and achieved the same outcome and if Legion players wanted the older speed back they'd have to run bamboozle at tier 3.

    They said they would be speeding up animations on vaults to make it feel better, but they haven't and with such a huge decrease in vault speed better timed animations won't actually feel any better they will just look better so it does look as if Legion is doing a slow motion action pose when vaulting.

  • Mellow7Mellow7 Member Posts: 675

    Power wise, legion is in the worst state he's ever been and probably will remain in that state because if BHVR ever annouces or decides that they will be revisiting him the survivors will complain again because they couldn't loop him like any other M1 killer, which was his strongest attribute as a killer but now he's just so awful there's no reason to play him over Wraith.

  • miaasmamiaasma Member Posts: 911
    edited July 2019

    i totally agree, nurse shouldn't be in the game in her current incarnation. same with spirit

    only difference is you have to at least kind of know how to play nurse to render her uncounterable. legion was uncounterable by design

    next

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,086

    Could you lay out the math for that, making sure to include the fatigue.

    Pre patch legion was 4.4 M/S and has 3 seconds of fatigue (which is 3.7 M/S)

    New legion is 4 seconds of fatigue still 3.7 M/S

  • FrozenscumFrozenscum Member Posts: 393

    @NuclearBurrito

    Fatique is not even nearly 3.7 m/s, fatique speed is around 50% of base speed, 2.3 m/s, maybe 2.5 m/s.

    If fatique speed was 3.7 m/s, survivor can make only 1.2 meters distance which would be covered by immediate lunge with M1 out of fatique. Show me vid where you can lunge survivor out of fatique.

    Survivors can make gap during fatique around 6-7 meters, which make difference in speeds at least 1.5 m/s

  • cloud7dragoncloud7dragon Member Posts: 19

    Legion is fine. I have no problem playing as him or against him. I know legion gets alot of hate but legion is one of my favorite killers along side spirit and the doc.

    Those who dont like him either dont understand how to use him or played against to many toxic legion players. Don't blindly follow others use your own mind.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 6,086

    @frozenscum I got that number from @No_Mither_No_Problem. So ask him because I wouldn't have anything for that.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,063
    edited July 2019

    Since I can't write your name out, actually ALL survivors have to be further than 10 meters from each other, and they also have to be running in the correct direction AWAY from Legion. If Legion hits one, his power refreshes.

    As for the other information, you're right, I forgot fatigue. There is no information for how slow you move during fatigue however, but considering the duration is only one second longer, and it doesn't say in the patch notes that he got slower during his fatigue, I would assume he's only missing out on one extra second, but again, using my 10 and 20 second movement, old Legion would go in frenzy one time in 10 seconds, so he might be slightly faster due to having one second of non-fatigue, but old legion in 20 seconds would go in fatigue 3 times while new legion would go in fatigue 2, giving him an extra second of non fatigue. To be fair this is ignoring cooldowns, and the recharge time was increased by 5 seconds, but this was just to explain that they are faster now than they were the longer you are moving. In short bursts, old Legion was faster, sure. The more you move though, the greater the difference it becomes because the gap between movement was closed, and FF lasts longer. Also old FF was 6 seconds, so new FF lasting longer makes up for 3 of those seconds.


    To ReikoMori: I can't ignore a major part of his changes just for the sake of proving someone right that he's slower, when he isn't. Those changes together prove he isn't. The thing people are seeing is that because he has a higher base movement speed, and a lower FF movement speed, he doesn't FEEL faster. That can be a valid concern, because there is a gap that has been closed by giving him a faster movement speed and a lower FF speed, now they feel similar in speed. The only way to fix this would be to change his speed values when in FF and when out of FF to be further apart(Or they could nerf base speed and increase length of FF, say 4.4 ms base with 14 second FF would be quite similar to the current speed in 20 seconds, slightly more, but not enough to be too good). But I bet no one would have noticed this feeling of being "so slow" if they only nerfed his speed to 5.0 in FF because the difference would still be big enough to feel.

  • Darn man stop with the feels its all about hit or not and it is not when the survivors choose so

  • KabuKabu Member Posts: 899
    edited July 2019

    @miaasma I wish the down vote was still a thing. It's already been said that we don't want cheesy Legion back. We don't want old deep wounds back. If anything, remove deep wound completely and give legion something else. It was a terrible power before nerfs and even worse after. Legion does not feel good to play and should be fixed.

    What we are trying to say is that we want Legion to be fun to play as. There have been plenty of suggestions that you have not read. If you had read them you would not have replied as you have in this post. Even going as far as calling people losers who try using Frank's and stab wound study.


    In other words, NOBODY wants cheesy, exploiting Legion back and we all agree he was bad for the game.

    Edit: I don't like using words such as everyone or nobody. If there are people who want pre patch Legion in its entirety then they are the minority.

    Post edited by Kabu on
  • KabuKabu Member Posts: 899

    Regardless to how well you do with them, who here actually enjoys playing Legion as they are now? Are they fun? Does the 4 second stun seem fair for what their power does? Giving survivors the borrowed time effect... Who thought this power was a good idea? It's horrendous.


    I have seen two Legions this past month. At most, only 10 since after the rework cooled down.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,103

    That is even more worse as I could imagine. I would like to see Behavior's data, on how many people have stop playing the Legion, since the patch.

    Also the data of buyers of the dlc and if they play the killer longer as a few days could be interesting.

  • miaasmamiaasma Member Posts: 911
    edited July 2019

    why do you want the downvote option back if you're essentially agreeing with me? based on this thread alone there are people who want pre-patch legion back in its entirety because they felt uncounterable gameplay was fine as long as it was fun for them. i totally agree that legion should be tweaked and improved (and i'm sure they will be) so as to make their gameplay more fluid and enjoyable, and have said so multiple times. my objection posts have been solely directed towards people insisting that pre-patch legion had counterplay and was fine for the game, so i'm not sure where the issue is

  • SunderMunSunderMun Member Posts: 1,222
    edited July 2019

    You're objectively wrong. But OK. That said, I don't think they need a rework - just some minor buffing and add-on changes.

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