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Struggle Phase Revamped

13

Comments

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109
    edited July 2019

    I would LOVE for you to explain to me how this is killer sided? @Kaelum

    I acknowledged Unnerving Presence would be abused and specifically stated it shouldn't work with these skill checks.

    I acknowledged that madness with doctor should be tested to see if it is fair.

    I gave you the miss, safety, or bonus for the hook state. Gives the ability to gain extra time on your struggle phase, with a detriment for missing. If you don't want to gamble you have the good skill check as a safety net option.

    This isn't an instant death punishment for missing one and is negated by hitting the good skill check or a great. Again a dual punishment and reward system that is balanced.

    Most survivor perks that benefit this I see no reason with allowing them to boost you here.

    This mechanic can hard-core punish campers depending on your ability to hit greats. That or bringing perks like stake out.

    Changing animations to make a more in-depth mechanic.

    It also gives a slight buff to deliverance. Although, to be fair you have to work for it.

    This also removes your complaint about button mashing. In addition to removing the instant death penalty for a lag spike to kill you.

    Post edited by Jdsgames on
  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065

    @Jdsgames That should be fine. As long as there's a prompt telling you which button to use. I suppose it wouldn't be available during skillchecks, but you could just fail the skill check to [BAD WORD] in that situation anyways so it should be fine. I do feel like if you fail one skillcheck you should die immediately, but in return perks wouldn't work on it. Doctor's power could PERHAPS work on it due to it being a power and not a perk, but that would likely have to be tested. This way you could suicide any time you wanted to exactly like live, rather than needing to fail a skillcheck and THEN press the dedicated button during skillcheck sequences. Plus I can only imagine how bad Huntress Lullaby would affect survivors if someone got full stacks with it. I don't think it should be any harder or easier than live. To compensate, you could remove great skillchecks completely and make no time be added, or reduce the great skillcheck success zones.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109
    edited July 2019

    @Atrushan88 I don't want to make a one-miss death. It really would make trying to gamble for extra time severely not worth it. Removing that mechanic would make other suggestions need to be nullified like the deliverance buff as it would be nothing but a pure buff to the survivor stand point. Although, I am down for huntress lullaby affecting the skill checks on the hook differently. Although, if she was full stacks maybe you should be paying attention <3. This just makes the mechanic worth more overall on both sides. It also as stated in a previous point it punishes camping if you bring certain perks or are good at hitting greats. The longer you are on the hook from a killer perspective is better. So allowing extra time naturally would make rushed saves less incentivized. Although, the suicide option can be presented throughout the whole hook phase as 'e' like dead hard. It simply just works to bring in what @Peanits said a way to [BAD WORD] on hook. Doesn't make it so you have to wait 10 seconds and then death animation. This allows you to give yourself some actual 'borrowed time' hah get it? The animations will make this bit better to look at than having to button mash.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited July 2019

    @Jdsgames Doing this though prevents you from suicide during skillchecks, and I don't mind no time at all being added, which was why I said you could remove great skillchecks, or at least reduce their skillcheck success zones, making it not a buff, well aside from deliverance, but honestly you should get to use your perk if you got the stack for it regardless imo. Camping killers are punished enough by normal struggle time as is anyways. Also you couldn't have Deliverance and the suicide option be the same button. Sorry thought I read everything.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109

    @Atrushan88 no, I was originally saying miss two on purpose was your suicide. However, that was exchanged for the button like you suggested. However, missing two still kills you. It makes the gamble have a punish side to it and makes it so you have to actually attempt to keep concentrated to stay alive. If you miss two in a row boom you are gone. So you have to balance making sure if you miss one go for that saftey net of a good. Want to gamble you can lose time in the struggle. However, camping is still quite viable in certain cases so I do like punishing it. EGC camping is fine it is a good strat, however, doing it to be an ass to someone isn't.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065

    @Jdsgames So you can press this suicide button even during skillchecks? If so that'd be fine I guess.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109
    edited July 2019

    Yes, @Atrushan88 I am down for that working. It adds dynamic to the phase. Think of suicide like just letting go. Missing two like screwing up so bad you lose to the entity.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065

    @Jdsgames Well in that case the only thing left is deciding on a button for both deliverance and letting go, as you said you need to press a button to activate deliverance if you have the option to use it.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109
    edited July 2019

    @Atrushan88 that can be up to the devs. I really don't care as long as they are not the same button LOL.

  • ThatGuyFromThatPlaceThatGuyFromThatPlace Member Posts: 66
    edited July 2019

    I like this idea, and I don't understand how it can confuse anyone.

    It's not killer sided, as it allows survivors to add extra time if they're good, and it buffs "This is not happening" and Deliverance, to allow it on second hook, so, it's the EXACT same if you use it on first hook, but, it's more difficult if you use it on second hook, and has a much higher chance of failing

    I've taken to binding hook struggle to "Mouse wheel down", so I just scroll down to struggle

    This would, however, completely [BAD WORD] over both my friend and my brother, both of which can't do skill checks very well :/

    (Though, they've blown up a gen in my face a lot of times so... Oof)

    Post edited by Rizzo90 on
  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065

    @Peanits Can you suggest this change with a suicide button that can be used at any time?

    @ThatGuyFromThatPlace Your friend and brother should at the very least be able to hit normal good skillchecks right? Although if they're newer it'll come with time.

  • ThatGuyFromThatPlaceThatGuyFromThatPlace Member Posts: 66
    edited July 2019

    My friend can't hit good skill checks sometimes, and can't hit great at all: He's still a rank 20

    My Brother can hit skill checks, I've seen him hit multiple great and hex skill checks in a row before even

    However, his monitor is limited to 30FPS, so he has a LOT more trouble doing skill checks because he has less time to react to it, and the needle moves less smoothly, and jitters more because of that

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109
    edited July 2019

    @Atrushan88 I have been updating and managing the original post of the thread with the ideas. Take a look suggestions have been credited even. Thank you guys for also taking the time to like the original post. It takes a bunch of people to make a change to a mechanic like this. The more support it gets the more likely it is to happen in some form. Still open to suggestions that flesh out this mechanic more for implementation and how mechanics would work. Please keep in mind I am looking to have this implemented in a fair way both good and bad aspects for both the killer and survivor.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065

    @Jdsgames Might want to take out this sentence as it is now meaningless due to the other changes, but looks fine to me.

    "Slipping up too much is essentially your give up option. This plays into how people suicide for hatch and various mechanics where you are limited by at least 10 seconds before you can do this."(For some reason can't use quotes on Microsoft Edge for me)

    Although Distressing not working while Huntress Lullaby DOES work still confuses me. It doesn't make sense for some perks to work while others don't. I mean I don't WANT Distressing to work, but for the sake of everything working the same way, if Huntress Lullaby works, that would dictate that Distressing would as well.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109

    Good eye @Atrushan88

    Also I think I strive for balance more than "Oh if X works Y should work" I am up for extra mechanics on some perks that would effect it, but, current standings of some of the perks. Little OP you can't lie.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited July 2019

    @Jdsgames I definitely agree there'd be a balance problem, obviously, but something would have to be added so that people know "Hey this doesn't work", if things were done that way. Balance is important, but so is consistency. That's why things like Autodidact have specific text that says "Does not work with med kits", or We'll Make It says "Cannot exceed 100% healing speed". At the very least that would need to be placed on Distressing.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109
    edited July 2019

    @Atrushan88 Look at the perk effects and changes. I specify if a perk will or will not work and why. If you have suggestions or thoughts on more perks do let me know. I could have forgotten about others. Ruin is already tied specifically to gen skill checks so it wouldn't apply. Distressing I think you mean unnerving. However, it would be op and abused. It shouldn't even need to hit live to figure that out. Although, I agree 100% with text information of the perk should be accurate. I didn't know autodidact was non-medkit specific until someone told me a few days ago. Same with dark sense you need to be on the generator for it to renew auras. Although, I will look into cleaning the section up a bit so it easily readable.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited July 2019

    @Jdsgames You're right, I meant Unnerving, sorry. I never use those perks so I always get them mixed up. If I owned Legion I might use Distressing on him for more information, but I don't generally see a benefit of the perk otherwise(unless playing Doctor and I just don't play Doctor), and survivors don't generally stay in TR for long while doing gens anyways for Unnerving. Also I looked at them and they look fine to me. All that would need to be done would be for them to add extra text to define Unnerving not working under struggle conditions.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109

    I agree and also Any other suggestions? @Atrushan88

    You seem to be someone more interested in balance and better mechanics rather than GG I win or "Just use a macro."

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065

    Not specifically for this struggle suggestion as it looks to be pretty much as good as it could be. I've posted quite a few of my own balance suggestions/QOL changes for both sides. They never seem to gather much traction though. A lot are just small improvements though so I can understand. Usually anything that isn't a major buff or nerf gets either disregarded or still met with extreme disgust from one side or the other while the one it benefits doesn't seem to really care.

  • fluffymareepfluffymareep Member Posts: 634

    I didn't get any of that, though. If anything, it would make times longer, which wouldn't be an issue if the killer decides not to camp. It could be an organic way of punishing camping when/if they introduce additional objectives or change the gen times. It also gives you something to do that isn't button mashing. As someone who plays both and leans more towards survivor, I think it sounds fair and it could make perks more useful and possibly give you more points, too.

  • ThatGuyFromThatPlaceThatGuyFromThatPlace Member Posts: 66

    My friend can't hit great skill checks at all, and has trouble with good: He's rank 20 still

    My brother can hit skill checks fine, and he's hit 2-3 great/hex skill checks in a row before, while I've watched, however, his monitor is 30FPS, and, because of that, he has less time to react, and the red needle jitters around more, making it harder to time it right

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109

    @fluffymareep thank you, do you have any suggestions to the main suggestion?

  • fluffymareepfluffymareep Member Posts: 634

    I dunno about perks/powers affecting the skill checks.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109
    edited July 2019

    @fluffymareep if you notice for the most part they are all weaker perks/powers so I generally don't think it would be a super-ultra god tier meta change. @ClogWench what do you think about this suggestion? I have seen you post on other anti-struggle threads.

  • fluffymareepfluffymareep Member Posts: 634

    That was the only thing I wasn't sure of, but it could translate differently to a game than I'm thinking it would. I know some people were concerned for newer players who aren't the best at skill checks, though.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109

    I see what you are saying @fluffymareep However, this idea is again bending to the new players which is why we have a balance problem at high rank. I can understand new players issue with camping and tunneling. However, before I bring anyone new to play I let them KYF a few skill checks just to get the hang of it. Camping this mechanic would punish the low-rank campers more than they already do so it would be a slight buff to new players in a way that it doesn't affect high-rank non camping killers. In fact if survivors got left on the hook just a bit longer. That is less time they were on gens. See the picture? It is a mechanic that slightly tends to the balance issues. I see the same problem with survivors being injured and gen kick at base. A perk shouldn't be what is needed to make a mechanic work or be benefited from. Like dull totems for example. How, I percieve it there should be a bonus to the killer for every dull totem remaining. Maybe like +2% to their movement speed per dull totem. This makes the mechanic necessary to do rather than a side-ho objective to possibly counter a perk.

  • PrincessPoopPrincessPoop Member Posts: 919

    I really don’t know how many people it will take speaking up before the devs finally realize that mandatory button mashing is an absolutely terrible idea, and it is a 100% outdated “mechanic”. I understand that they want to keep struggling interactive, but practically ANYTHING ELSE would be a better option than what we have now.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109

    @PrincessPoop what are your thoughts about the suggested mechanic. @Peanits already said if enough people speak up they will look into changing it.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109

    Still looking for input on the thread.

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