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What is going on with the Nurse



  • CarpemortumCarpemortum Member Posts: 4,041

    Except, that a decent player can take the "unwinnable chase" vs her and drag it out long enough to actually do some good. You may not be able to escape her, but if you're smart, your team can get work done.

    Called making the best out of a bad situation.

    Dont keep this "woe is me. Its nurse theres no escape." [BAD WORD] going on. It's old. It was old with legion, it was old when prayer beads were what every thread was about.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277

    Yeah Sluzzy doesn’t seem very reasonable. I’m a damn killer main but I can still admit when something is OP. Omega blink Nurse is OP.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277

    The pipping system is a whole different discussion. We are talking about the Nurse’s add ons, period, not the popping system. The pipping system is beyond broken for killers right now. That doesn’t mean Nurse should get OP add ons.

  • scorpioscorpio Member Posts: 277

    She has counterplay. You can make her lose LOS because she can’t blink 4 times to catch up to you or blink across the map. You can redirect your run so she blinks past you and she can’t correct without extra blinks/longer range. I didn’t say she was easy to verse, but she definitely has counterplay whereas omega blink or 4-5 blink Nurse is near impossible to escape. Being difficult to verse =/= OP.

  • JdsgamesJdsgames Member Posts: 1,109
    edited August 2019

    Breaking LOS has an easy option for nurse. To regain LOS and not guess. You generally have two options as a survivor hang by the end of the wall and double back or keep running. If the nurse blinks to the wall you get hit, otherwise they have the second blink to eliminate most of the distance they ran. Within another set of blinks you are hit. That is not counter play. You cannot skill a straight line. It is muscle memory time/distance use the power enough and you will get this down.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    I think you missed the point regarding 'she ignores game mechanics'. That is an old survivor-meme, but it's one which is incompatible with the claim that 'Nurse basekit is fine, it's just her addons' for anyone who is trying to at least pretend to be honest.

    Different people have given different versions of what is meant by 'omegablink' and you haven't said in this thread at least what addons you think represent 'omegablink' so we can hardly have a reasoned discussion about that. I vaguely remember someone and it might have been you, saying that you regard 'omegablink' to be the range-addons: Ataxic Respiration, Catatonic Boy's Treasure and the one no-one uses, Wooden Horse.

    Others have told me 'omegablink' is the chain-blink increases, but I'll address yours exactly how I did in the other thread: these are the very same addons which were the most problematic in 2017. Accuracy has mattered more since Nurse had her move-speed nerfed to the point where she could no longer do a conventional chase(she moves slower than a running survivor); these addons destroy accuracy over distance.

    When the devs changed how blinking works in patch 1.9, it was to help survivors dodge blinks but survivors did nothing to adjust to the changes. A Nurse can't run range-addons with chain-blink addons and maintain any accuracy: they have to choose one version of 'omegablink' over the other. When Ataxic + Catatonic are being run together, the response is simple: run in a straight-line away from the Nurse then make a hard turn on the second-blink. The Nurse has less accuracy and blink-time since 1.9 is based on charge-time rather than distance travelled: they are stuck in the blink.

    The same very low and dishonest standards that were claiming basekit Nurse was broken because she 'ignores mechanics' back in 2016/17 are being applied to the new narrative that it's her addons that are the problem. There is no evidence to support this; it's just being used because group-think is all some people have and here's an opportunity. It's the standard 'not all survivors play optimally, which is why killers need nerfing' all over again. This has to stop.

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 2,385
    edited August 2019

    What you say makes sense, but people wanted her addons to be reworked since a long time. It's just that in the mean time there were Wraith, Trapper and Freddy at the top of the list of killers in need of changes. Now that they finally reworked Freddy people have simply switched their focus on what's next, and since most people seem fine with her base kit they focus on her addons.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    Sorry, but who are you quoting there? I'm not going to have a discussion with you based on you making things up about what I've said, what I think and bottom-scraping standards where nothing matters and words don't mean anything.

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 524

    Looping is nothing more than a way to extend a chase so everyone else can work on gens. You do that during a chase which is exactly the same thing as juking a nurse to 'extend the chase'. A good nurse being harder to juke is no different than four survivors that are good at looping/juking. The problem with everyone arguing for nurse to be nerfed wants to ignore the highest potential for survivors. I don't care if it is rare for survivors to be that good, you are still saying it is NOT ok for Nurse to be that good while survivors can be.

    You are being biased if you say Spirit addons are not on par with Nurse. She has addons that improve her power much like the Nurse. She has several addons that make her move faster, move farther on a single charge, and have faster charge time, just like Nurse.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    If it's my opening-post you're responding to, then you can't say 'it makes sense' then post that 'people wanted her addons to be reworked since a long time'. The meme about her addons is a recent thing and there have been no changes that could explain how addons became the problem: they have no been changed since she was released in 2016. I explain all of this at the start of the thread: you can agree or disagree with different points, but they all build up to a case against the narrative being pushed about Nurse addons at the moment.

    I can tell some people haven't even bothered reading because they want to tell me what my opinions are still.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    Basically you made up a quote, argued with yourself because I do not have the views you wanted to super-impose on me and now are admitting that despite me repeating myself, you can't accurately represent that I think. You just want to settle an argument you don't understand because you can't be bothered, with a KYF match because it's easier.

    Such a match would only matter even slightly if I had the views you've assigned me with, so accepting that match would mean accepting your distortion of my position, which I'm of course not going to do.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    You haven't read anything I have had to say. You can't tell me what my views even are.

    The Nurse is not fine. The Nurse is not without the need for substantial adjustments. She has always needed them. The problem is those driving this particular bus are blind, drunk and can't read a map. The devs must stop listening to them, they have steered the game into a cul-de-sac where the only changes that can be made represent either paralysis or fudging, hence we have a new-Freddy with no particular speciality, too many abilities and as such too many moving-parts that can go wrong.

    They just don't want to be told they're talking bull and their only means of support is leaning on all the other drunk and blind people, hence the only concrete argument when I follow their logic-train back to it's origin is 'lots of people seem to think so'.

    If 'lots of people think so' because 'lots of people think so', where's the origin-point? There isn't any.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    No, because you're still not listening. This conversation can not happen until the standards we have for balance discussions move a lot higher.

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 2,385

    In the rush I might have missed to say that patch 1.9 not only buffed the Nurse, but made her addons usable. So while in 2016-17 they were mostly considered a hindrance, they now are commonly used, making Nurse effectively stronger in the hands of less experienced players.

    So yeah, you make sense when you say 1.9 was the big thing about the Nurse and addons weren't directly changed, but I argue that people are fine with her base kit (even after 1.9) and the fact that "the meme about her addons" is not a recent thing. Devs have been saying they wanted to change her addons since at least 2 years, but in the mean time there were other priorities so the matter got a bit lost, so no, there's nothing suspicious about it.

    In any case that passive-aggressive ending wasn't really called for.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    The devs saying they wanted to change her addons since 2 years ago is not the same as the Nurse requiring changes due to her addons. If the devs had been honest when they first knee-jerk nerfed the Nurse, they would have quickly made changes to addons back then because they were useless, one of her achievements was impossible without them and it was already one of the hardest feat-achievements. On top of that, Kavanagh's Last Breath became a joke as it buffed chain-blinks whilst removing the ability to do any chain-blinks, unless other addons compensated for the loss of blink charges. That meant blink accuracy so poor as to be useless.

    What the devs are doing now is feeding into the baseless narrative calling for Nurse changes based on a lie that addons are making her too-strong. That is being argued with a straight-face, alongside the contradictory claim that she is too-strong because 'she ignores game mechanics', something that is true with or without addons, if we ignore the dishonest framing of it.

    Patch 1.9 was meant primarily to help survivors; the devs had this strange idea in their heads that making the visual cues more obvious would be useful, when survivors had already become accustomed to responding to audio cues. The audio cues were now less reliable because her blink-time was based on her charge-time afterwards, where before it was based on her distance travelled. So now a Nurse could aim lower to shorten her distance even on a max-charge, but re-appear in accordance with a longer distance.

    These changes do not help the addons so much; they simply change the parameters for predicting the Nurse. My view on that is nuanced: survivors did not adapt, and I never expect them to ever adapt to anything because they have become accustomed to their main exploit-originated playstyle being catered to. When ever it is threatened by killers trying a new idea, survivors will demand and usually get a restriction imposed on killers without justification.

    However, in a parallel world where survivors do learn from mistakes, remember more than a few weeks ago and think ahead more than a few minutes, they still wouldn't have been able to adapt to 1.9 changes. This is because anticipation is faster than reaction: a visual cue helps more with reactions, but no reaction is so fast it can match anticipation. Anticipation is what an audio cue helps with: the Nurse inhaling says she's started charging and the next sound out of her says she's blinking, the difference between tells both the killer and the survivor where she will go: they both have almost the exact same information. 1.9 changed that.

    If there can be any argument that the Nurse needs nerfing 'because of addons', the best it can manage is a reverting of blink changes in 1.9. Every other argument in favour of nerfs, using addons as an excuse, is the same dishonest garbage that has caused the worst things in the game to be introduced.

  • NMCKENMCKE Member, Trusted Posts: 7,183

    Technically they are balancing around SWF because they are bringing solos to SWF level, then buffing killers to compensate.

    Not saying Nurse is fine or not, just stating the facts.

  • RydogRydog Member Posts: 1,744
    edited August 2019

    I don't want to speak for ArecBalrin or put words in his mouth, but I share in some of the skepticism he has expressed in the past about the developers not quite understanding a lot of the factors that impact the game.

    We've seen a lot of threads where Peanuts has responded to suggestions with basically "whoa, players don't need all that information" with regard to closing the aforementioned gap.

    But more on-topic: This is all true about Nurse add-ons suddenly being a hot button when they've been the same way for years. The easy answer is that the game has changed around the Nurse, and other tweaks have had knock-on effects for the Nurse's kit and itemization. This is one of the big challenges of developing an asymmetrical multiplayer game like this. I can't count the number of similar instances I saw back when I played League of Legends.

  • White_OwlWhite_Owl Member Posts: 2,385

    The point is still the same, most people are fine with her base kit. Her addons where buffed by the change that allowed the Nurse to not be forced to commit to a long blink, since that allows her to basically remove the penalty of many addons: that's why many think her addons should be reworked (essentially to fit the post 1.9 Nurse) instead of her base kit.

    In any case the lack of a proper addons balance after her big nerf at the beginning was due to how BHVR worked with Starbreeze at that time, with everything being rushed and sloppy.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    The issue of course I have with 'the easy answer' is that the number of changes that have happened in the game are finite; they can be read in under an hour and with CTRL+F, specific changes take seconds to find. Being able to find out what changes could potentially affect addons is not insurmountable; it's a doddle. Yet 'the easy answer' has been presented to me as some kind of monolith.

    The game has changed around the Nurse. Fine, disregard anything that obviously isn't relevant to the Nurse's blink or addons: killer-specific changes, bug-fixes for bugs that don't precede the Nurse, pallet changes, map-design where not relevant to blinking dead-zones, etc. The vast majority of changes to the game are ruled-out and we're left with a lot fewer changes to consider.

    Attached to this is the idea that 'people just didn't know and now they do', to which I say "100% horse-manure". As soon as someone was onto something after Nurse's uber-nerf, she was tested to destruction and throughout 2017, no one disputed that addons were a liability, not an advantage. The idea that people didn't know that 'omegablink'(of which I've been told of two completely different addon-builds by different people) had such advantages is utter poppycock.

    This is not the butterfly-effect; many tiny but un-describable changes somehow just enabling Ataxic Respiration + Catatonic Boy's Treasure to fast-blink a bigger distance or Campbell's Last Breath + Fragile Wheeze allowing course-corrections as survivors try to dodge. The changes are countable, describable and fall-short of any case for changing the Nurse how survivors have always wanted, based on 'OP addons' that were a joke just two years ago and haven't ever changed.

    It's not simply that the devs are balancing around the low-ranks. When they want to nerf a killer, they have inevitably responded to feedback based on low-ranks. When they want to buff survivors, they look at high-ranks: what are killers doing and what would stop or frustrate them?

    They almost never give buffs that would help low-rank survivors more than high-rank survivors, only the opposite. This is despite the fact that such buffs would help solos more than they would SWF, which people keep claiming is a goal the devs are serious about. I'll believe it when I see it.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    If people(by which you mean mostly survivors) were fine with her basekit, I would have stopped hearing the perennial survivor-meme about the Nurse: "She ignores game mechanics". They're still saying it and that's what gives the game away that addons are merely a wedge-issue, not a legitimate discussion about balance. Basing proposed changes on opportunism creates problems. Talking about mechanics, with specifics in regards to cause and effect, hard-facts; those solve problems.

    The Nurse IS committed to a long-blink: the time spent in a blink since 1.9 is based on the time that it was charged. She can not do anything for that base duration, even if she doesn't travel far due to lower-aiming. The response survivors should have is to pay attention to the patch-notes and what addons actually do; but most of the discussion around the Nurse fail to talk about her blink mechanics or even specify what addons are being spoken about. It keeps becoming more clearer that the term 'omegablink' is confusing people more than it is clarifying.

    It's a long-standing double-standard and encapsulates almost every complaint killer-mains have about the game's history of development since release.

  • JagoJago Member Posts: 645

    @ArecBalrin I love how you actually argument this thread. Really mature, and rare.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    A lot of this is pure speculation, which the devs do not engage with along with other types of feedback which might come back to haunt them if they gave straight answers. Take it all with a pinch of salt; there's alot of it in these parts.

    One belief is that they are scared of the game suddenly failing. The company has a patchy history; it used to be called 'Artificial Mind And Movement' if you want to google that. They never expected DbD to be the success it became, they weren't prepared for it. If you are familar with the plot of Mel Brooks' film The Producers, that's similar to the scenario BHVR would have faced.

    BHVR were able to use the proceeds from the game to buy the IP from Starbreeze, who they had developed it for as a for-hire project, so now they own their game in full. This might give the impression that they're swimming in money; but Starbreeze were struggling.

    Most of BHVR's income right now is coming from selling DLC for DbD. If the player-base collapsed, it would make the game less attractive to get into or to invest in as a player. So they may be scared of what the majority of players think, or what the players who buy the most DLC think. Many long-time killers don't buy any DLC; I learned my lesson after the Hag and won't pay another penny for anything. It also means killers are ignored, but that doesn't feel like it has ever been different.

    They currently have only one game that has been a success and it needs to stay that way until they have another hit at least. Deathgarden looks like a flop though and it's a weird decision to revisit asymmetrical multiplayer so soon, given that people who play DbD are going to keep playing DbD. Maybe they were trying to target people who used to play DbD but don't any more. Maybe they thought their experience developing DbD, the most successful asymmetrical multi-player ever, made them experts on the genre; so Deathgarden failing must have come as a shock and they are being extremely cautious now.

    I for one think they should be more open and engaging. They should do what few developers do: explain their method for making decisions, draw up clear standards and then nail themselves to them.

  • OmansOmans Member Posts: 419

    You are so fixated on proving that the players trying to get nurse nerfed are trying to create some sort of deception by talking about Nurse addons, and it is rather tiring. Did you know survivors are not a single entity with a single train of thought?

    Some people believe nurse base is fine. They commonly say "her addons are broken, but don't touch my base Nurse!" Some people believe nurse base is not fine. They say "she breaks the mechanics of the game." Some people believe even the addons are fine because nurse needs to be this strong. If you read between the lines of what they are trying to say, it would be "I am not a good player and I want free wins as nurse, even against players much better than me."

    When people say that she breaks the mechanics of the game, yes, that means they believe her basekit needs to be tuned down. A lot of people say this.

    You say people don't talk about the actual blink mechanics...? Seriously? That is a large portion of what people discuss...i have no idea why you are trying to push this narrative, but it is getting old. It truly seems like all you want to do is make up facts and say people are wrong because their thoughts don't align with those facts. You never responded when I said that when I started the game in early-mid 2018, many forum posts were about how Nurse base as well as her addons were too strong. But that doesn't fit your narrative, so why would you respond, right?

    People have refuted all of the points you have tried to make. Please read carefully.

    The game is the best it has ever been for skilled killer mains. It is still extremely good for skilled survivor mains too. But there are still outliers, things that are too strong for the current state of the game. Whether or not nurse players believed her addons weren't helpful when she was released is truly irelevant to the current situation. Since I started playing this game, nurse has been head and shoulders above every killer, both at base and with her addons. Survivors haven't "chosen not to adapt because they only want to loop and are lazy". That idea is ludicrous.

    Skillful killers as a whole are much better than they were, and Skillful survivors as a whole are much better than they were. Claiming the opposite is simply wrong.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    I've read carefully and you haven't addressed anything. Everything you're accusing me of, you're doing right in this post. You even quote me as saying something I never have, it doesn't even resemble my opinions.

    I do not deal with narratives and generalities; I deal with specifics and standards, both of which you have avoided.

  • MegMain98MegMain98 Member Posts: 2,411
    edited August 2019

    People are still making Nurse threads? There is like 50 of them.

    It’s this simple...

    Nurse at base is fine, don’t change ANYTHING about her base-kit.

    Nurse’s strong add-ons like five blinks and omega blink need a rework. At MOST, Nurse should have an ultra-rare that gives ONE additional blink but that is all.

    People also bring up “skill” and “competitive” when this game requires very little skill on either side and it is NOT meant to be competitive at all. The ONLY killer that requires skill is Huntress and somewhat Nurse.

    What more is there to discuss?

  • SluzzySluzzy Member Posts: 524

    If the devs are serious about being fair to both sides and/or serious about balance, then they would engage in some official tournaments with the best DBD survivors pitted against the best Nurse players. If the nurse wins every game with it being obvious the survivors having no chance to complete all 5 generators then I'll be cheering along with everyone else that wants her nerfed.

    I would wager the best survivors would be near impossible to beat, even with Nurse.

    Nerfing Nurse for the pure sake that "Survivors don't like or can't bully one particular killer" is a knee-jerk reaction that the devs are in a habit of doing all the time.

  • ArecBalrinArecBalrin Member Posts: 636

    There's no grounds at all for claiming 'basekit Nurse is fine, it's the addons'. Nothing about the game has changed that would make the addons the issue. I started this thread to examine how people came to think this was the case, but so far people believe it because 'lots of people believe it' and it's a self-reinforcing cycle.

    Trying to follow the chain back to it's source seems fruitless; no one can come up with a self-sustaining argument for why Nurse's addons are the issue. They have not been changed since Nurse was released, nor have they been affected by the rest of the game changing, nor did people just simply learn ways of using them that didn't exist in 2016 and 2017.

    The closest there is to a change with a knock-on effect is patch 1.9, which is more an issue of survivors failing to adapt to changes to blink that were intended mainly to help them dodge blinks, which they apparently paid no attention to.

  • OmansOmans Member Posts: 419

    I didn't quote you even once, but now I will:

    Your narrative, a tired one at that, is that "nothing has changed that would warrant current talk of nurse addons being broken".

    All of your points stem from that belief, when it is wrong. People have been complaining about both base Nurse and her addons since I started playing the game. Why are you assuming this is a recent discussion? Instead, you choose to blame an ENTIRE group of players (I thought you don't do generalities?), saying survivors simply are choosing not to adapt to blink mechanics.

    Finally we agree on something, for different reasons. I would love to see the blood bath that would ensue from such a tournament. The nurses would dominate.

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