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Legion Buffs (serious)

FabFab Member Posts: 295
edited August 13 in Feedback and Suggestions

INTRO

These are just some changes I came up with. Some have been ripped from one of my other discussions, most are brand new. I'm posting this again for three reasons.

  1. As a game designer and active player, I believe that the biggest problems with The Legion are actually to do mainly with his addons and not his power. (Hard to believe right?) Although I do provide extremely good buffs for his base power.
  2. A lot of my discussions have been recognized by Behavior, and I want this one to be seen as well.
  3. A lot of people have come across my discussions and ideas, not knowing they wanted it, but finding out that they really do.


POWER CHANGES

  • Survivors suffering from Deep Wound cannot complete the Repair, Heal and Sabotage actions. (Designed to deter Survivors from completing specific actions within your Terror Radius.)
  • While in Feral Frenzy, your movement speed is increased to 5.4 m/s. (Previously was 5.0 m/s.)


ADDON CHANGES

  • All pin addons now apply their respective status effects upon initially hitting a Survivor with Feral Frenzy. (Before you had to hit them again with Feral Frenzy while they had Deep Wound.)
  • Frank’s Mix Tape: Considerably decreases the cool-down of Feral Frenzy. (Previously allowed you to decrease the Deep Wound timer by hitting them again.)
  • Cold Dirt: Considerably increases the speed at which The Legion vaults pallets. (Increases vault speed by 25% + Previously considerably decreased the cool-down of Feral Frenzy.)
  • Fuming Mix Tape: Tremendously decreases the speed at which a Survivor completes the Repair, Heal and Sabotage actions for 90 seconds after Mending. (This is a 12% decrease in action speed. + Previously showed the repair progress of generators while using Feral Frenzy.)
  • Friendship Bracelet: Slightly increases your Terror Radius while in Feral Frenzy. (Increased by 4 meters. + Previously slightly increased your movement speed in Feral Frenzy.)
  • Never-Sleep Pills: Moderately increases your Terror Radius while in Feral Frenzy. (Increased by 8 meters. + Previously moderately increased your movement speed in Feral Frenzy.)
  • Susie’s Mix Tape: Considerably increases your Terror Radius while in Feral Frenzy. (Increased by 12 meters. + Previously considerably increased your movement speed in Feral Frenzy.)
  • Nasty Blade: Moderately increases the time it takes for a Survivor to complete the Mend action. (Increases Mending time by 4 seconds.)
  • Filthy Blade: Considerably increases the time it takes for a Survivor to complete the Mend action. (Increases Mending time by 8 seconds.)
  • Stab Wound Study: Considerably increases your Feral Frenzy movement speed. Considerably decreases the duration of Feral Frenzy. (Increases movement by 0.3 m/s. + Decreases the duration of Feral Frenzy by 3 seconds. + Previously considerably decreases the Deep Wound timer of all Survivors.

Thanks for taking the time in reading my discussion and I always look forward to feedback. If you want to read some of my other ideas, you can find them linked below! @Peanits @Patricia @Ness

OTHER IDEAS

<3

Post edited by Fab on
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Comments

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 390

    This is actually quite well put together, I applaud you

  • Rokku_RorruRokku_Rorru Member Posts: 57

    Why don't you put this into the balance forum? It would be great there! Great post

  • matt6996matt6996 Member Posts: 32

    BHVR really needs to look at your post because omg these idea's are genius it makes FF something to be scared of and survivors just can't M1 gens through deep wounds no more. But if I should add they should reduce the stun by at least 0.7 sec or 1 sec at least

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 428
    edited August 12

    Your changes sound good mostly, imo, but... (yeah there is always a but :):

    -I really fear addon changes to the Legion. The old Legion has mainly fall because of his/her addons.

    It was the addons, that have make the pre patch Legion op and they have make 1 of 2 exploits possible.

    If you look at the arguments of the most survivors, they have always write that the Legion is to strong. They were unable to distinguish between a Legion without addons and a Legion with example Franks Mixtape.

    You as Legion main has known the difference, but they don't and that had lead to a ton of nerf threads about the Legion in general. I am afraid that something like that happens again, after bhvr reworke the Legion 1 day again and such because of this reason, I am against any changes on addons.

    I would not like to see a second Legion patch as a consequence then to those addon changes, like the one the Legion has got (that is imo, the only thing that could be worse as the Legion patch).

    -I like to see the stun after missing knife hits go away and that comes from a killer main that has a pretty high hit-rate (even that is mostly because I had only press m1/m2 when I was really close to someone - so no time for a survivor to dogde something anyways).

    If you had look on dbd to pre patch times, it had 3 types of killers:

    -The ton of m1 killers.

    -Nurse.

    -The Legion.

    Today are only 2 types left, since with the Legion patch, the archtype of a fast moving and stabbing killer is gone. That is imo a huge problem, because archtypes are what people are interested in.

    You can see that in other games: In wow, some guys would never play a warrior, or a priest, but because they know, they could also play a mage, or rogue, they have start to play wow.

    Archtypes bring people to a game and that is another reason why dbd should have a fast stabbing killer again (best immediately). With archtypes you get more people in the game. The more you have, the better.

    So TL:DR, we should not stop by frenzy, -> we should move on and also delete that freaking miss hit stun and up the vaulting speed. Since deep wound is no real threat anymore, I also see no reason anymore why that should not happen (basicly, frenzy could be reastored to his pre patch state without fearing to go to far, because of the deep wound changes they have make).

    Post edited by Talmeer on
  • xllxENIGMAxllxxllxENIGMAxllx Member Posts: 467
    edited August 12

    5,4 ms in frenzy seems great but i think 5,28m/s (old legion speed) is better. As for add-ons pins i totally agree they should apply with DW instead of the second hit after applying DW.

    Frank's mix tape i would suggest that he increase movement speed in FF as for stab wound study which is the weakest add-ons because of deep wound effect being bad. I just think they have to rework the deep wound effect.

    As for base legion he is weak i think all they need to do for him are those.

    lEGION cHANGES

    • Reduced terror radius to 24m from 32m.


    Frenzy CHANGES


    • Increased FF movement speed to 5,28m/s from 5,0m/s.
    • Increased FF duration to 15s from 10s.
    • Removed the gauge drain when hitting someone (m1 attacks).
    • increased Pallet vault speed to 1,1s from 1,35s (old legion was 0,9).
    • Increased base terror radius to 32m from 24m.
    • Windows vault speed remain the same.
    • Missing a hit in FF cancel the frenzy.

    Deep Wounds CHANGES

    • Reduced the base timer to 15s from 30s (as all exploit such moonwalk are eliminated) i don't see why DW timer wasn't reduced.
    • While affected by DW survivors can't complete any action (repair , sabo and healing except mending)


    We can also discuss about the fatigue time which is 4s now. Old legion was 3s and nurse is 2s by default. I think 3s is great if they make those changes above.

    Add-ons list that need buff/nerf/change

    • All pins : They should apply with the first FF hit instead of two.
    • Frank's Mix Tape : Increase Movement Speed in Feral Frenzy or Reduce the cooldown penalty when missing an attack in feral frenzy.

    Further notes

    Legion is supposed to be a killer that put pressure via Feral Frenzy by hitting as much survivors as possible. Problem is that the nerfs destroyed the pressure legion was able to do by reducing his speed. My ideas was to make legion great without making him OP and broken as Legion v1.0 was.

    To resume what these buffs change for legion they change what legion lacks PRESSURE, his increased speed and duration allow Legion to travel the map in frenzy , Allow to catch up survivors faster and allow to put pressure more efficiently as he should be.

    Tell me what you all think.

    PS: mods move this to balance feedback.

    Post edited by xllxENIGMAxllx on
  • FreddysMixTapeFreddysMixTape Member Posts: 12

    Friendship Bracelet, Never-Sleep Pills and Susie's Mix Tape no longer increase the MS of FF(They'd be actually good add-ons if they did) they instead increase the Killer Instinct detection radius, which essentially is just what you suggest here but better as it gives you information without people knowing that you have it. These add-ons however are still kinda pointless as it is nigh impossible to actually follow up on the info provided. Legion can not even catch people in their standard detection range sometimes. I personally feel these add-ons are just a poor man's Iridescent Button and your version of them is sadly not really fixing that. Might be better with the base speed changes but I still can't see myself ever running those.

    Personally I am not a huge fan of the suggested Cold Dirt either. I dont like having to run very rare add-ons.. or any add-ons for that matter to fix glaring issues in a character's base kit. I'd prefer the base vaulting speed would just get looked at rather than having to run an add-on just for it to not be horrible.

    Regarding Frank's and the CD add-ons in general, they are all honestly quite bad. They have very poor numbers (The fact that you have to run the 2 best ones just to get 1 second off is actually pathetic). I said this many times before but honestly just rework the CD add-ons and put the base CD at 3 seconds.

    You didn't mention it here but Stab Wound Study would still be the argueably worst add-on in the game(not counting the joke add-ons like Padded Jaws).

    The rest of what you suggested here sounds quite nice though, I really like the new Fuming Mix Tape and I am always for making FF actually fast again.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 2,615

    Why are you changing cold dirt if you are going to immediately give it's function to franks mixtape?

    Just make Franks to increase vault speed and leave cold dirt as is.

  • FabFab Member Posts: 295

    I totally agree, however I made that specific change so that Frank's Mix Tape is more in line with the other addons.

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 2,174

    This Legion feels fun but may I ask why put increased Vault speed in an Add-On instead of base Legion?

    Also would you change Stab Wounds Study as well? It had a great effect on OG Legion but as it is now it serves no purpose since it's effect is redundant.

    Not being able to heal and repair while having DW is a QoL change but also remember this will effect Borrowed Time as well.

    My own personal thing about Legion is that I really feel they need Aura reading, solely so they can use Iron Maiden. If everyone knew that Legion could see their Aura then they would hide in Lockers, bam the perk will FINALLY have synergy with the Killer it came with and can be used on someone else besides just Huntress and Doctor who can only slightly use it for small reasons.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 2,615

    *Breathes*

    A QOL CHANGE MEANS IT DOESN'T EFFECT BALANCE!

    If a change makes something provably stronger or weaker then it's not a QoL change. Actual QoL change will instead make existing strengths easier to execute or notice.

    For example the UI changes and the buffer on new Freddy from the PTB was QoL. It didn't change where and when you can place something, it just reduced the odds of not placing it where you couldn't by making it less finicky.

    Another potential example would be making the indicator addons for doctor/nurse/huntress basekit. These make existing abilities easier to execute but doesn't actually change the abilities themselves in any way. A Survivor trying to counterplay them won't be able to reliablely tell the difference no matter what method they use.

    Thus ANYTHING that makes something stronger/weaker is not QoL since it effects balance.

    Reducing Huntress locker search time? Balance change. Increasing/decreasing skill check frequency with a perk like lullaby? Balance. Increasing skill check success zones? QoL.

    Being unable to interact with stuff until you do a 15 second channel is ABSOLUTELY a balance change and a very important one too.

    /end rant.

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 2,174

    @NuclearBurrito You have to do the Mend anyway, sure you don't need to do it in the TR for obvious reasons and that's why this change effects that but in the end you still need to Mend. So regardless if you can't repair or not you still have to waste 15 seconds, whether that's 15 seconds after you finish a Gen or 15 before you finish the Gen either way it's still wasting time. Sure of course you would want the 15 before the Gen and this change does that but it is such a small difference that it barely matters, it does matter but not enough to rant.

    Also, thank you for explaining the difference between QoL and Balance which was not necessary lol It's not even my post. My Legion change was more complex.

  • NuclearBurritoNuclearBurrito Member Posts: 2,615

    Straw that broke the camel's back. A lot of people use the term QoL to refer to things that don't qualify, and more importantly they do it with the same implications as the actual meaning.

    If your just using a different meaning then it loses the implications. Why bother labeling it QoL if not to differentiate it from a balance change?

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 2,174

    @NuclearBurrito Fair enough, thanks for correcting me :)

  • FabFab Member Posts: 295

    Thanks, and these are some good questions/recommendations. In regards to the vault speed increase addon.

    The reason it's only an addon and not in base power, is mainly to do with Killer balance. The Legion's current pallet vault speed is 1.35 seconds. That increase in speed brings vaulting down to 1 second. Assuming that we make this change available in his base power, that would mean The Legion (by default) vaults pallets faster than windows. On top of that, The Legion now moves at 5.4 m/s, which combined with naturally faster vaulting speeds would cause a lot of frustration for Survivors. New Cold Dirt exists to allow you to make chases easier, but will take up one addon slot.

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 2,174

    I can see your reasoning, they'll already be faster than Legion is now which is huge improvement <3 having the compromise of Vault speed in an add-on is an ok sacrifice so they can stay as a 115% movement Killer. I do remember that having Legion vault just as fast as Survivors could was a problem, minor though.

    Overall these changes make me want to play Legion again, right now they aren't as fun since they have severe asthma and can't keep up so hopefully the Devs like these ideas.

  • FabFab Member Posts: 295

    By the way, I've added Stab Wound Study and the two blade addons to the change list.

  • HatCreatureHatCreature Member Posts: 2,174

    Those blade add-ons are sweet <3

  • FabFab Member Posts: 295

    Thanks! To answer your question on why I didn't post it on the Balance Feedback page, the reason why is because very few people read discussions there. I want as many people to see this discussion as possible. So while it makes more sense to be posted where it should, it would also decrease the attention this post receives significantly, thus decreasing the chances of Behaviour implementing any of my changes.

  • DWolfAlphaDWolfAlpha Member Posts: 21

    Since no one called you over here, @Peanits, mind taking a look?

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 116

    Everything is good but why not remove the missing hit penalty?

  • FabFab Member Posts: 295

    General power balance. Instead of outplaying The Legion 3-5 times, you only need to outplay them once.

  • RIP_LegionRIP_Legion Member Posts: 61

    Only thing I would change is Frank's, doesn't seem right having it do the same thing as cold dirt but without the vault speed buff. I'd rather that get the 25% better vault speed and maybe just moderately or slightly decreases cooldown.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 428
    edited August 17

    The whole frenzy changes making no sense with the tr and deep wound changes also in mind.

    Would the Legion of today have still the old frenzy, with the lower stun, no stun for a missing hit, lower duration, faster movement and "individual" frenzy activation, - the Legion would still be somehow weak, but would make a bit more fun imo.

    Because the tr and deep wound changes would still be alive and that makes the nerfs even harder to understand.

    Imo, the defs have just read what survs. have complain about and then they have everything change that had stay on their wishlist. I can't see anything different behind it.

    Clearly they have not listen to the majority of Legion players. The Legion players opinion had gone mostly imo from "change nothing to nerf the addons and fix the exploits".

    And yet we have this mess and another boring m1 killer. Not a surprise if someone ask's me. If you ignore the people that know the Legion best (aka the mains), only something like the situation of today can happen.

  • Just_PlayingJust_Playing Member Posts: 83

    I have too say i like you changes. I see that you have some experinece about this game.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 116
    edited August 18

    Yesterday I saw again the devs stream of the patch that legion got changed.

    So, somewhere in the middle of the explanation, they said that their objective was to make legion fun to play AS and to play AGAINST. Seems like, at least the 1st one, isn't reaaaaally not completed. I think that people don't understand that you perform better with a fun character even if it is weak (he still needs buffs tho). They wanted to make him more fun but then added and infinite list of downsides to his power that you must be careful- the most stupid one is the miss hit penalty.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 428
    edited August 18

    I had always my problems with the argument that the Legion is "unfun" for the survivors.

    Mainly because of 3 reasons:

    -The Legion is a killer. His objective is to kill survivores. The more - the better. Why should any survivor have fun on being killed? Sounds crazy, but even when we forget that...

    -I have never seen official numbers of how many people have dislike the Legion and how many like the Legion. All what I have seen is a bunch of whiney streamers with their aduiences and maybe 40-60 people that have really go tryhard on getting the Legion nerfed with their nerf-threads (You know what? Let em be a hundret. It's easier to math).

    Compared to that, I had a mostly friendly and also often happy endgame chat in the game. Survivor's have tell me there sometimes, that they have enjoy the match against me and or the Legion. They have found it thrilling. Challenging. Sometimes they even had encourage me to make more pressure in my next games and I had hundrets of endgame chats like that.

    When we keep now in mind that the most games have 2-4 survivors in, then you don't need to be a math teacher, to see that I had more people like that in my endgame chats, as the nerf cryers we have seen here.

    ... So... Where are this "armys" of nerfcryers that are allegedly more as the people in my endgame chats? Where are the official numbers? Lists and statistics?

    And at the end, I was just one pre patch Legion main. Other Legion mains have for sure made the same experiences (of course not all of them, since toxicity is also a random bit... sometimes).

    -You read today quiet often that even survivors find the new Legion boring. So, even with this goal in mind, the devs have not reach what they liked to achieve.

    But I guess some survivors will use that "unfun" when ever they can :|

    Post edited by Talmeer on
  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 116

    I can't argue with you because we share the same opinion. I started to be a legion main 1 month after i started playing the game. It was really frightening and exciting playing vs a legion. I never found it unfun, it was a challenge. Those nerf cryers transformed legion from a frightening and challenging killer to go against to a boring sluggish killer.

    To play AS, oh boy! Very cool the adrenaline of killing at high speed and making the bleed( sounded like a psychopath xD). I never found problems on the old legion with exception of frank's mixtape and his lethal power. He wasn't very lethal but i didn't care, because it was fun. Good times :)

  • starpilotsixstarpilotsix Member Posts: 167


    I do think they made it slightly less unfun to play against the Legion (and there are aspects where, IMHO, it was definitely unfun).

    However, I think the changes they made -

    1) Made it far less fun to play as Legion

    2) Made it slightly more fun to play against, yet still keeping him the most unfun killer to play against.


    So I'd agree it was a failure.


    Biggest problem with the legion old style was the "if Legion wants to focus on one survivor and tunnel them down with Feral Frenzy, it's almost inevitable, just a matter of time." IMHO, a cool way to both counter that and increase the general fun is to make it so feral frenzy hits also grant speed bursts to the survivors, bursts that only apply when the Legion is frenzying. Say there are 4 tokens the Legion has... every time a survivor is hit by FF, the survivor gets one of those tokens, which grants them a speed burst of say 20% of the speed increase the Legion also gets, oldest token drops (and maybe other circumstances where tokens drop). Again, this speed boost only applies whenever the Legion activates frenzy, it's not a permanent buff. Frenzy hit the same survivor multiple times, Legion still zooms around the map whenever they want, but that survivor also moves 80% of the same speed boost, making it take longer to chase if you rely on your power. But, the survivor gets the fun of "oh man I'm zooming around the map too!" (and maybe risk delaying mending so they can search totems or get to friends or something else) and the legion gets strategy potential in calculations of "activating my Feral Frenzy now, the speed burst won't benefit the survivor I'm chasing as much as it benefits me" and incentive to spread Frenzy attacks around multiple survivors.

    Again, this scheme requires OLD-style Legion, which means hitting the same survivor multiple times takes down the bleed timer. It wouldn't work now. I'm just using it as an example they could have weakened the downsides of the killer and make it more fun for both sides.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 116

    My personal opinion is to maintain the changes to deep wounds (except the "you can't see the mending bar because we want (?)") and to his base movement speed 4.6 m/s and revert ALL the changes made to this power.

    For a bigger rework, I made a post that includes the old legion and stuff.

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