Something's strange about the next chapter...

My observation on forum members attitude towards balance.

DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 2,438
edited August 16 in General Discussions

You can quickly lose count of the amount of posts on these forums about balance complaints, and the debate over what is/what isn’t balanced.

But here’s what I’ve noticed.

Anyone submitting an idea or suggestion either for killers that STILL takes into consideration the survivors, or an idea or suggestion for survivors that STILL takes into consideration the killers, tend to be terribly unpopular.

The only other thing that mostly grabs attention on these forums other than the ongoing Adrenaline, NOED, Spirit, Nurse, Billy, Legion debates are heavily biased survivor suggestions, or heavily biased killer suggestions.

Seemingly, to me anyway, only a minority of community members are truly interested in balance & fairness, despite how popular a topic balance vs unbalanced actually is.

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Comments

  • TrueKn1ghtmar3TrueKn1ghtmar3 Member Posts: 1,035

    Lmao you create a game with two rival factions of different strengths and abilities and dont expect people to war over a balance decision that supports their side, I admit I have a slight killer bias but I'm sure I can (and have been) higher as a survivor than killer (lmao its just way too easy) its hard for one side to see the woes of another and that is where the line is drawn unfortunately

  • Bbbrian2013Bbbrian2013 Member Posts: 2,086

    I disagree that extremes are popular here. I've been called heavily killer sided and even a troll recently due to my killer sided balance opinions.

    Unless by attention you mean negative attention. Most people seem to fall somewhere in the middle.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 2,438

    I mean any idea that’s thrown about considering fairness for both sides...

    Crickets...

    Tumbleweeds...

    Of course though the polar opposite is true, as you’ve stated. Anything perceived to be super biased gets the same level of biased attention, and the other side coming in blowing up the post looking for blood.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 758
    edited August 16

    @DudeDelicious I agree, and have noticed this myself. Either no one says anything, or the side it slightly nerfs(or realistically becomes a "not nerf but not a buff") comes in flipping tables. Or in the case of my suggestion for moris being replaced by a new offering, one of each disagrees for different reasons. Still hardly any traction that I've seen on anything that isn't "nerf Billy/Spirit/Nurse/DS/BT/Adrenaline".

    People claim they don't have bias but it's pretty clear that no one(or hardly anyone) wants actual balance.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 2,438

    Lol, exactly. Killers want their quick kills. Survivors just want them gone entirely without an adequate alternative for the killer.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 758
    edited August 16

    @DudeDelicious I wish more people wanted actual balance. I honestly don't even know that the devs want actual balance. Their entire game honestly is quite an unbalanced mess. It's a fun game, but there's too much that can tip the scales too easily and I think they honestly just look at feedback and what people are complaining the most about and try to fix things to make them complain less about it.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 2,438

    I made a post recently about why Adrenaline hurts new Freddy in a much greater way than old Freddy and any other killer, with a very well reasoned argument based on my extensive experience having played Freddy from day dot.

    My argument was that the Wake Up feature needs to be moved to a more niche perk, so that it does still exist in the game but won’t be as much of a kick in the nuts to Freddy with how common Adrenaline already is across matches.

    I got a fair amount of back lash, with the usual “sToP TrYiNg tO NeRf SuRvIvOrS” nonsense.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 758
    edited August 16

    @DudeDelicious While I can see the problem with that, I don't think it should be moved FROM Adrenaline, since Adrenaline is supposed to wake you up. I'd much prefer it if Hope got the heal one health state and that was it, while Adrenaline got ONLY the other stuff + Hope's movement speed buff. Hope makes more sense for healing imo, and Adrenaline wouldn't heal a wounded person, it'd just wake them up and jack them up, which would make more sense. This is moreso from a thematic standpoint than a balance one though. But I would like to see what that balance change would feel like. Hope would probably see more play, while Adrenaline less, but I think Adrenaline would still be pretty nice.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 2,438

    Maybe what needs to be adjusted is shortening the amount of time a survivor is awake due to Adrenaline? (other than unlucky enough to be hit)

  • HexylHexyl Member Posts: 670

    Yeah most of this forum is biased towards their sides which nothing is wrong with that but most people only play one side not a lot of people play both so opinions on the other side dont matter to them.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 758

    @DudeDelicious You mean like giving the survivor a short amount of time awake due to the adrenaline burst, but then shortly after falling back to sleep? That would make sense thematically, I suppose, but how much is too much or too little time? 30 seconds would be an okay spot, but at the same time, I'm not sure that'd do much to change the problem with it against Freddy, as if the exit gates are powered, by the time that 30 seconds are over the survivors would have probably made it out. But if you reduce it by less than 30 seconds, it probably wouldn't do much for the survivor.

    I kinda just want the health state increase from Adrenaline gone personally. I'd like to see something like

    Hope: Instantly heal 0.5/1/2 of your health state once the exit gates are powered.

    Adrenaline: Movement speed is increased by 5/6/7% for 120 seconds after the exit gates are powered. Adrenaline will wake you up if you are asleep when it triggers. Causes the Exhausted status effect for 60/50/40 seconds.

    That'd remove complaints about Adrenaline being OP(and the main effect from Adrenaline probably wouldn't be considered as OP either because it doesn't give anything but the health states) and fix your problem with waking up against Freddy because less people would use it most likely.

  • HexylHexyl Member Posts: 670
    edited August 16

    If you nerf Adrenaline then you gotta nerf noed just saying they go hand and hand.

  • prayer_survivorprayer_survivor Member Posts: 516

    Devs should want these discussions. They can show us current statistics about the number of kills with each killer in each level (or lvl 1, 3, 5, 10, 15,20) and this can ends the discussions about balance.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 758
    edited August 16

    @Hexyl well it wouldn't really be a nerf, more of a balance shift. Hope would be the new Adrenaline, and would actually be more powerful at tier 3. You just wouldn't have the movement speed plus the health state anymore. For example, those situations where you got downed just as Adrenaline procced would heal you to max health.

  • HexylHexyl Member Posts: 670

    It's a nerf you are basically removing the instant heal and sprint burst its a nerf either way id be fine with this if they took the speed away from noed fine.

  • DudeDeliciousDudeDelicious Member Posts: 2,438

    Which is truly what the complaint is. That’l it’s already far too prolific because of its undeniable strength, yet additionally gives a potential 1 minute immunity to Freddys remaining power (snares are the concern) at a time Freddy already loses his greatest asset.

  • ZertixZertix Member Posts: 91

    The problem here is a lot of people have a sense of entitlement. 

    Example 1:

    Only 3 killers are viable in red ranks. It is impossible to get 12 hooks in blood lodge if you are playing leatherface against good survivors.

    Like seriously, why do you think you are entitled to a perfect 4k with 12 hooks against good survivors? I am pretty sure if you are as skilled as the survivors and played very well, you have a fair chance of getting 2 kills (which is the balancing target of the devs) even if you played wraith or leatherface.

    Example 2:

    You are screwed by the EGC if you are the last man standing. 

    Why do you think you are entitled to a 50/50 chance of escaping in a 1 vs 1 situation if it is a 4 vs 1 game? It makes sense if the odds are not in your favor as a survivor if all your teammates died. 

    Entitlement is in both sides. This is why balancing debates are usually not very fruitful. 

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 758
    edited August 16

    @Hexyl It's not really much of a nerf. Hope gets Adrenaline's heal(a better heal than before actually at tier 3). Adrenaline gets Hope's speed boost(120 seconds of 107% movement speed is quite good honestly) in addition to waking you up. So: Adrenaline gets better movement speed, Hope gets no movement speed but up to 2 health states when it procs. I'd call it more of a balance shift. I've never really noticed the sprint burst doing much for me honestly. Then again I'm rarely ever in a chase when it procs. I mean, I could be wrong, but I don't think NOED would need a nerf, considering it can be taken out of the game(even before it activates) while Adrenaline can't.

    @DudeDelicious Yeah, that was what I was thinking too. Less people using it would make it less of a problem for Freddy. Of course, like I said, if it were still to be a problem they could just make it where after the exhaustion effect ends you fall back to sleep, OR while the exhaustion is up, you are automatically put to sleep, but once it ends, you wake up, giving Freddy 40 seconds(at tier 3) to do something.

    @Zertix While I do agree to an extent I'd also like to point out that I don't think the killer should be pretty much guaranteed a kill on the last man standing during the EGC, and currently that's the way it is. It's also pretty frustrating to be put into dying state and have a killer just look at you until the EGC takes you instead of putting you on a hook like they're supposed to. This is why if the doors are on the same side while I'm a survivor, or if it's a Wraith(because there's no way you're getting out against a Wraith during EGC due to his 126% move speed), I just go look for a place to hide so they don't get the satisfaction, lol. I generally go in the basement since they don't usually check there after the EGC starts.

  • NoShinyPonyNoShinyPony Member Posts: 2,668

    @Zertix #1 isn't a good example. The side that played better should win.

    That somebody who plays killers wants to win against others that didn't play as good is not entitlement. Asking for more than 3 killers to be viable at red ranks is not entitlement. If the survivors are good players and the Leatherface is a very good player, then the Leatherface should win, but in reality he won't.

  • KillermainBTWm8KillermainBTWm8 Member Posts: 2,573

    It's like that because the threads that try to be fair to both either get hate as well, or they don't get any attention people would rather go and have a circle jerk with their side saying how the opposite is just horrible and that their sides balance ideas are the best.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 11,712

    Really? I usually observe that a thread and/or post that wants to focus on a single subject gets whataboutism'd to death.

  • anarchy753anarchy753 Member Posts: 769

    I find there's a huge mix.

    There's some completely dedicated players on both sides that will only show up to foam at the mouth asking for nerfs, or brag and rub in salt when a nerf happens. You can largely identify them because they're always the one to bring up other people as an "X main" as though it makes their opinion infallible by pointing out that someone plays either side.

    There's also a lot of people who love to make suggestions that are blatantly broken. There's a LOT of "increase gen speed," "convoluted way to say free extra hit" etc perk suggestions, and they get shut down rightfully.

    It's rare to see a "fair" suggestion, and so often a downside or buff to the other side is offered as an afterthought to a completely overpowered or broken suggestion.

  • SoylentPixieSoylentPixie Member Posts: 411

    The big issue I see, is that people see the forums as some sort of extension to the game itself, and christ NO, nobody is going to let the other side win!

    I make a habit of trying to be objective as I can, even though my survivor / killer ratio is probably about a 70 / 30 split. I don't need to play 50-50 to see the needs and similarities in behaviour from both sides, and quite often I just don't like giving my opinion on debates because whats the point? Aside from a few fair minded people, nobody seems to want to find a common ground, their too busy trying to come out on top. These days, aside from obvious points, I tend to just shut up and accept that I will roll with the punches when these stupid arguments and complaints end up affecting the game.

    Right now it almost seems like both sides are playing nerf tennis rather than deigning to work together to find a common ground of balance, and ultimately its just strangling the life out of the game. Everyone is wailing about balance, but nobody wants to approach the problem with a balanced perspective. The usual story is...

    "Nerf this and THEN there will be balance!"

    or...

    "If you nerf that then you have to ner something of theirs...THATS balance!"

    or my favourite..

    "Why should I care about what survivors/killers want..I am edgelord, lord of edgington and I live off survivor/killer tears"

    Funny how that doesn't seem to have solved the problem yet. Yeah i sound a little preachy, but f***ing hell, is it that hard to admit that both sides need each other to actually play this game? If you all keep nerfing each other into a corner, then eventually there won't be a game down the line.

  • TrueKn1ghtmar3TrueKn1ghtmar3 Member Posts: 1,035

    I don't run noed, never have after I started getting atleast 2k before endgame I can see why new killers would but there's not much point when you can take a perk that affects what you do during the match more effectively. The same for adrenaline its a perk I've never touched again I can see why new players would but all it takes is a wraith with BH to [BAD WORD] you over.

  • Warlock_2020Warlock_2020 Member Posts: 992

    I concur heavily with the OP. People who claim it is a rivalry game fail to realize they are biased and part of the problem. I've played enough of both sides that I know how much each can suck. That usually gets me labeled as one side or the other. God forbid you have a balanced view on this forum.

  • RaptorrotasRaptorrotas Member Posts: 1,195
    edited August 16

    Ertix #1 example sucks.

    "Be glad you're allowed to get half the people you're supposed to kill."

    If I opened a thread telling sirvivors they should be happy to die while only 2 others were allowed....

    A killers goal is to get ALL survivors, as just as a survivor's goal is to individually escape.

    (The team mentality of swf even twisted the perception of the goals)


    But OP is correct, but as a terribly biased and sweaty lowrank tryhard killermain I have to point out that there are way more terrible survivor ideas for balance than unreasonable killer ideas.

  • ZertixZertix Member Posts: 91

    According to @Peanits, the weakest killer in the worst map in rank 1 has a kill rate of 45%. In a neutral map, I am pretty sure the kill rate would be around 50%. 

    Here is what I think: 

    All killer are viable in red ranks.

    ON THE OTHER HAND, not all killers are viable against a group of 4 very good survivors. To beat a got tier survivors, you need a top tier killer, and you need to be very skilled with that particular killer. 

    But since red ranks is a mixture of good and bad survivors, you should get at least 2 kills in most of your matches with any killer, which is currently the case according to the stats released by the devs. 

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