Why Not Tier 1 Perks?
Caretaker
Member Posts: 764
The change is good, but doesn't fix the problem. It'll help yes, but you're adding 9(6 for survivors) more perks. That's 18 more levels needed on a max level character. At rank 50 that's roughly almost 1mil BP at 900k. This change cuts that in half, but only at higher levels. Why not just make all perks tier 1? No one uses the lesser level perks, and most of the time they are worthless. Tier 1 perks would heavily alleviate the insane grind this game has, give people confidence to prestige, and still require a ton of playtime.
You could also add a recycler for offerings/addons that we won't use anymore. This would solve the clutter problem, let people get BP back for things they want, and also help alleviate the grind.
6
Comments
I'm a little confused how you got the 18 more levels bit. Assuming we're talking about the survivor side with 6 new perks, that's a total of 18 nodes (6 perks x 3 tiers). Since you can get two perks per bloodweb now, that's only 9 levels. Not too shabby if you ask me.
Making all perks tier 1 would cause other issues. If you're new to the game and don't have all teachable perks, you would run out of perks to unlock by level 14 (survivor). Then you get nothing at all until you reach level 30, 35, and 40. It would be very unrewarding.
Lately, we've been updating perks to bring their tier 1 versions closer to the tier 3 versions. You don't need tier 3 Ruin to get the effects, for example, every version affects every survivor and the difference between the different tiers is very small.
@Peanits Maybe unlock teachables at levels 15, 20, and 25 then?
@Peanits 6 for the survivors, and yea, it helps late game grind and that is nice. However, that doesn't help new players at all. They still have to grind out 19 survivors to level 40 to open up more perks for their pool. If they just start out they don't have the free perks from the other survivors. So 14 would equal about 42, but a bad/useless perk won't really make even a new player that happy. It actually starts to feel bad after awhile.
They still have to obtain those extra perks, meaning they're not getting new perks anyway so I'm not sure if that'd be a huge problem to just soak up some items. Not to mention a lot of people tend to stick to specific metas anyway. I've noticed the updates, but I still say tier 1 perks would solve a lot of the grind issues.
It's roughly 1.20~mil to get level 40, so 22,800,000 BP to unlock every teachable. Now imagine trying to get one to P3. That's another 4,500,000 BP just to get to P3 assuming you get perfect webs and only need 1.5mil to hit 50.
Now, you don't get perks every early level, but you do get more than og webs, but iirc there are still dead webs with no perks. So that wouldn't add to the overall perk total which is 57 teachables+15 open pool perks. That's 216 levels, per survivor. Assuming level 50 with a perk in EVERY web, which I'm pretty sure can't happen is 166 levels left. 50k~ to get a full web at 50. So if we go off new webs that's 83 levels needed, which is 4,150,000 BP to max out. 74,700,000 to max all survivors assuming they are level 50, and excluding the P3 grind.
This doesn't even cover if you want to prestige/max out killers. So, sorry but I don't see the new change as much of a fix to anything. Especially with the updates to make low tier perks nearly identical to their tier 3 counterpart. I'll be honest it seems like there is no actual desire to fix the grind and we're gonna be forced to just dredge along through awful perks to finally finish a build, and then even more grinding to say, "I maxed out x character(s)."
This fix doesn't even help new players. Easy fix to the, "No perks from 14-30." Change the way the perks show up. Every 2 levels you get a perk. Boom. Easy fix.
I think a smarter idea would be to keep tier's same, but to add extra chance that you can gain 2 tiers from single BloodWeb on a perk. so for example, if your lucky, you can start with level 2 Hex:Ruin instead level 1 hex:ruin so average, less blood-webs are needed to max a character with all perks.
Didn't get to slap this on the wall of math and text, but give us a recycler. There are hundreds of thousands of useless offerings/addons. Let us just munch them for 50% return, or hell even 25%, anything. Dev streams have mentioned clutter, and this would not only help the grind, but the clutter as well.
Yeah. When are you guys announcing changes to the grind?
They did announce it. At 40 you get 3 perks in the web, can grab 2. At 50 you get 4 perks per web, can grab 2.That's the fix.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/82749/designer-notes-new-status-effects-and-bloodweb-changes/p1?new=1
Having looked at the impact this will have on my ongoing killer perk libraries, I think it's going to be a pretty big improvement. I currently have 53 killer perks unlocked; under the current system I need to clear 90 more Bloodwebs to have my full inventory at tier 3 on Freddy. Once this change goes into effect, this will be cut in half, and I'll only need to clear 45 more Bloodwebs. That's a LOT more reasonable for a single killer.
The key issue is, this change only really helps players who are already knee-deep in the Bloodweb economy. New players still have no path to "really playing" -- that is, getting a selection of competitive perks on even a single survivor or killer without deeply leveling a bunch of characters.
This is why I think that it would be helpful to bring down the level threshold for unlocking teachable perks. If I'm a new player and I want to get, for example, Self-Care (Claudette level 40), Bond (Dwight level 30), and Sprint Burst (Meg level 35) because of advice I have received from players, I have to commit 105 levels across three characters. That's before I can even begin to evaluate whether I enjoy that particular combination.
Like I said, this change is going to be helpful -- specifically, for players like me, who are already in the trenches. But Behaviour needs to go further to make the grind less intimidating for new players.
That's why I say just make them a single tier. Getting them earlier is nice, but you still have to grind them out and get to 40 to access the new webs to even get extra perks. I have all killers P3, and for every single one I want to level up or try to get a build on this sadly won't help. Seeing as many of them are at level 1 this change won't even help me out and I'd say I'm pretty deep in the economy. +That's just one side. There's the 19 survivors to consider, and what 17 killers now?
Also a recycler would make prestiging not as bad, and would let you dump the offerings you'll never use, Haddnofun on killers? Who's gonna use that outside of a meme? There's a lot of fixes, but to say this is to help new players, or we can't do the tier 1s cuz it hurts them is a bit disingenuous.
@Caretaker Yeah, I've also suggested a single-tier perk solution a few times, but they keep falling back on this "Oh but players would run out of perks to get" rationale. I think the whole Bloodweb system needs to be re-evaluated and reworked for the good of the game.
A recycler would be a great idea, too. I suspect they would be skittish about adding any kind of "anti gold sink" mechanic, though.
EDIT: Oh, and I should clarify that all my feedback and concerns presumes that the player is NEVER prestiging, because that makes everything wantonly oppressive, and it's never a good idea if you value your time as a human. That sucks, and players should feel like there's a good incentive to prestige.
Funny enough back in the old days before they wiped Discord clean of anyone not a CM we had a big discussion about this. The main reason that got them turned off about this idea of tier 1 perks. Was cries for compensation aka Legacy. A lot of people were upset that they'd have wasted so much time grinding and kept bringing it up. Despite the vote being 54% for Tier 1 perks they deleted the channel, discussion, and never brought it up again.
This was about a year ago I think? Possibly 2? I do find it kinda hilarious they keep bringing up new players as the reasoning behind a lot of changes, but this game is extremely unhealthy for a new player. Horrible grind to catch up, matchmaking can dump a full loadout killer on you with hundreds if not thousands of hours.
My idea for recycler was 50% back, even event items can be recycled. I'd be fine with 25%, I'd even possibly buckle at 10% for extra BP. I wanna be able to just roulette all my killers, and have a couple survivors maxed out for when I wanna swap, but I can't do that. I'm 1800+ in with multiple events and still barely have 8 killers maxed, a max survivor, a few prestiges on them, and all my killers P3. This game's grind makes japanese MMOs look like a breeze. I've never seen a grind this bad before.
I imagine they're scared if they cut the grind people will stop playing, but if they were to address the grind properly through tier 1 perks, and other incentives people would actually play more. They wouldn't be scared to prestige, or use their items, or anything. This change just feels really knee jerk and I'm pretty sure they took it off one of the social medias as I've seen it quite a few times floating around.
@Caretaker God, I JUST posted in another thread to all these ME WANT PWEASENT people screaming for Legacy skins over this rework. Behaviour just needs to ignore those people and make the changes they need to make for the game's long-term health.
Obligatory reminder to anyone reading: The forum community and Discord community are not representative of the player base at large. We are aberrations, because we care deeply enough to be here to talk about this one specific game in such obsessive detail. Our feelings and opinions on this game inevitably tend toward the extremes. The majority of players are like, normal people. A better Bloodweb experience would broadly benefit everyone.
For this? No, this is 100% not a legacy worth rework of the bloodwebs. Now, all tier 1 perks? Sure, and my solution to that was simply don't rush it, give it to people in a year when you've got time. Make a legacy cosmetic DLC, that'd make bank. Give people a huge BP bonus that extends past the cap. Give people a massive chunk of Auric Cells for characters/skins.
I don't really care, I just want Tier 1 perks so I can finally max out all my killers, and actually consider maxing out a few survivors that I enjoy playing. Right now I am 100% focused on killers cuz there's just no way to do them all without pouring another 2-3k hours into the game. Tier 1 perks would be good for everyone, more manageable bloodwebs would greatly improve the health of the game.
No more 160 levels before you get that one perk you need to get to Tier 3.
This really is a massive and welcome change. Having 4 perks to choose from and being able to acquire 2 per bloodweb is awesome. That cuts the workload in half! The next low hanging fruit that I would like to see them pick is to make it so when a character has all three of their teachable perks unlocked, the player can choose to toggle off one perk from showing up in the bloodweb. This will allow players some room to "unmuddy the waters" so to speak and reduce the long term penalty for short term decisions.
So for example, if I have every teachable perk unlocked on every killer, I would have the option to toggle one perk for each killer. That would be like 15 less perks showing up in my future bloodwebs that I'm not all that interested in. But after I've got all the available perks on all the killers and there are a few weeks before new content comes out, I could untoggle some perks to unlock on my favorite killer. Then when the new killer comes out, toggle those perks off again and increase the good perk likelyhood when grinding out the new killer. Does that make sense?
Did you read the math I put out? It's still 4.5mil and doesn't help new players in the slightest. You also still have 17 killers to grind out, 19 survivors, and still might not get the perks you want.
It is still HALF the current workload! That is basically the equivalent workload when there were only EIGHT killers available. That's about when I started playing. It wasn't nearly the grind then! If you bothered reading what I wrote at all then you'll see that I'm still in favor of reasonable changes to reduce it further as well. But I am excited about this change. It is a huge step in the right direction.
@Dreamnomad I agree with you, but I am also very aware that this is partially Stockholm syndrome talking. They gave us a less bad thing to replace the really bad thing, but it's still not GOOD.
I read what you said, was just saying. Also, you only get half workload on 40+ killers, so not really HALF the workload. And this doesn't affect prestige either so. Hopefully we get more changes to actually fix the grind.
This 100%. It's like tossing someone's ice cream in the dirt, and spraying it off with a hose. Yea it's clean, but it's still awful. (I'm tired and can't think of a better analogy.)
GOOD would be actually having everything you want unlocked in under 1,000 hours of play (that's almost 42 earth days), which you currently cannot do, unless maybe you are ridiculously optimized about your BP spending from the jump.
I agree sooooooooo dam much
I did the math, if I got to recycle all the worthless stuff I don't use on survivors I'd have enough BP to fully P3, and max out a killer. We need this.
Are you serious? Please don’t tell us that you are basing the ENTIRE Bloodweb on the first character that a new player levels. Also, what you stated is absolutely FALSE! Including the general perks, there is no freaking way that any player could get all of the available perks by level 14. You might want to fact-check that response.
You guys need to seriously think about how you are destroying the game, instead of shoveling us these kinds of answers. BTW, a new player would LOVE to only have to worry about addons and offerings for those few levels, if it were true.
EDIT: I give up. You read the post completely wrong @Peanits . I was referring to way you are making changes, as opposed to how the community agrees that changes should be made. The OPs idea is perfect. Your implementation barely does anything. Plus, the random perk(s) taken away, may be one of the ones you want. I posted a more perfect system last year, using tokens, which would also be better if all perks had only 1 tier.
Base pool for survivors is 15 levels. So assuming you don't get a single dead web, it'd be about level 15~. However this is easily alleviated by making the web drop a new perk every 2 levels. So 2-4-6-8-etc. This way you'd get perks up to 30, then a teachable at 30, last perk at 32, teachable at 35, and your final teachable at 40. +A lot of items/addons to fool around with. I've only done the math on survivor side, but I imagine this could work fine for killer side as well.
I went ahead and fact checked it just to be safe.
Dark Sense, Deja Vu, Hope, Kindred, Lightweight, No One Left Behind, Plunderer's Instinct, Premonition, Resilience, Slippery Meat, Small Game, Spine Chill, This Is Not Happening, and We'll Make It.
That is every single generic survivor perk. 14 in total. If you were to get one perk per level, that would take 14 levels. You do not start with teachable perks. All three of your unique perks start unlocked.
I'm sorry that you feel like adding more perks to the bloodweb is destroying the game. If you like, I can pass that feedback on to the team. Though this has been a suggestion made many times by the community over the years and we have decided to implement it into the game. While it may not be your ideal solution, it is one that a lot of people have wanted to see for quite a while.
@Peanits Please pass along that the multiple perks in the bloodweb is a Massive Quality of Life change for new players and veterans.
Thank you BHVR!!!
Ah, buddy added Left Behind in the list, so yea, 14. There's an easy fix to that though, @Peanits . Make perks pop up every 2 levels. Even new players can tell most of those generic perks are awful, and they won't use them again. Most people know what perks they want/which to go for to have a good build to start with. So, I'm sorry it's a very easy to fix and perks aren't even that rewarding early on. Doesn't fix 90% of the grind either, and the fix doesn't do anything to help new players as you suggested.
I'm sorry if you think we dislike this change. We don't, but it doesn't fix anything aside from people who have already dumped tons of hours into the game. Technically doesn't even help some of them either. Cuz you'd either need to max a character at 50 and not prestige, or hit prestige 3-40 to even have this really be worthwhile. Which is still a massive grind ignoring unlocking teachables, and perks on EVERY killer/survivor maxed. +3 extra perks is 9 levels, so you get 2 per web. Meaning it cuts about 4 webs of grinding. Saves about 200k.
Except it doesn't help new players? Like, at all? Even vets don't get any use out of this if their characters aren't 40+, or if they're trying to prestige. The only time this is really efficient or helpful is someone trying to max out a character without prestiging, or someone who finally hit P3, got to level 40, and then it helps. So, no it's not a good fix at all.
@Caretaker It does when they level up multiple characters to get their unique teachables to put on their mains.
Why is destroying the game? If you're new of course you will need to work hard to get those perks, besides, let's say the perks are all tier I What happend about the players who unlocked all Tier III perks? They only get a "thank you for your effort"? And what happend when those people have all perks? What's the point of wasting points in the bloodweb? Because I'll have new objects? Then I run Plundered's instinct and Ace in the Hole and I have a good object with two good add-ons. I mean, one thing is making easier to get perks but you literally are killing the main objetive of bloodwebs and prestige.
Yea, you get those perks at 40, meaning if you're leveling to get a teachable and nothing else, then no. This literally doesn't affect at you at all. Except for that one main character. It cuts 4 webs, or 200k worth of BP.