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Let's talk about nerfing camping

ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632
edited September 1 in General Discussions

It’s been discussed time and time again on these forums. Maybe the most discussed topic. But there’s a reason for that. And I am surprised there are still so many people that think it’s fine the way it is.

Let’s get this clear though. Camping is not a balance issue. In fact, it’s not very effective against high ranks, since they know how to counter camping. Yes I get that argument. No point in bringing it up. But that’s not the point. The point is, it’s simply a serious flaw in the game’s design. And I just don’t get why anyone wouldn’t want the game to become better designed, even if it only benefits one side. Nerfing camping would only nerf an awful strategy, it wouldn’t nerf skilled killers in any way. So it really shouldn’t be a problem.

Obviously, camping can’t be removed. It’s part of the core design of the game since it involves having to hook a survivor and have them bleed out until they die.

But it should be made way more ineffective than it is right now. It’s the best the devs could do. Simple as that. It is without a doubt for me one of the biggest sources of frustration for survivor players, and I think we can’t ignore it anymore, seeing how within at least the last half a year killer queue times have generally been longer than survivor queue times. Which probably means there are too many killers and not enough survivors.

What really worries me is that now, with the huge wave of new players that will probably try this game thanks to Stranger Things, many of the new survivor players might just end up quitting the game after a few days because of being camped to often. And you can’t blame them, being forced by the killer to not be able to play the game is just awful, and I wouldn’t want to play a game that has this happening often.

Now it can’t be removed, but it can be made way less effective than it is now. At lower ranks, it’s probably really good most of the time, because low rank survivors don’t know how to counter it, and we simply can’t ignore the low rank players. It’s less effective at high ranks, but slap on Hex: Ruin and NOED and you still got a chance to 4k, despite the low skill it requires to pull that off.

So, the devs can do something about it, or just ignore it. But at this point it feels like ignoring camping is also ignoring the longer killer queue times. And at least I don't want to ignore this. I am a killer main, and I don't want killer queue times to increase.

I know the argument is that they tried punishments for camping, and it didn’t work. But give me a break, I really doubt they tried everything possible to nerf camping. Bleedout speed should be decreased by 60% or so after the survivor has been hooked for 20 seconds if the killer is still within a 28 meter radius of the hooked survivor and on the same floor. At the very least have the killer’s aura shown to survivors when staying near the hook for a certain amount of time, but I’m pretty sure that wouldn’t be enough. If a survivor is within that radius, or even an increased radius of 32 meters, the penalty disappears, same goes for when the killer is in a chase or the exit gates are powered. So it can’t be abused like the camping punishment that was tried on the ptb already. Unless I’m missing something, then feel free to tell me how survivors could abuse it.

A different way to nerf camping is to give survivors a counter to it. Make sabotaging hooks reduce the Bleed out Speed of survivors that get hooked on those hooks by 50%. This way sabotaging hooks might be viable, and not just make killers slug instead of hooking survivors. The only thing I fear with this idea is that it won’t be used by inexperienced survivors enough to help them against camping killers.

People say killers should just be rewarded for not camping, and I don’t mind that. I’ve seen the suggestion that survivors that are unhooked suffer a generator repair speed penalty of 10 or 15 % for like 60 seconds, which I think is a great idea. But keeping camping as effective as it is now will still lead to many relying on camping, no matter how much you reward them for not camping. Why stop camping if it still can work as well as it does now? It would still need to be nerfed.

Post edited by ad19970 on
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Comments

  • GopherGopher Member Posts: 38

    I always say that if a killer is camping, do the gens. At most, the killer will get a 2k if everyone gen rushes a camping killer. In the end, the killer will get way less points by camping. I'm not sure they realize this, or maybe they don't care and are just looking for ruin someone's game experience. Others argue that it's a strategy and I agree, although it isn't the best strategy. When I play killer, I hook and immediately go after someone else. More points, more fun and less salt in the endgame chat, haha.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    Yes, exactly. But new players won't know how to counter camping. They'll just get camped or face a camping killer, think this game sucks, and leave. Not really favorible prospects for the game.

  • Speshul_KittenSpeshul_Kitten Member Posts: 1,017

    You can’t nerf camping without forcing the player (Killer) to play a certain way. This action will drive away killers from the game.

    To understand this you must understand the psychology of human behavior: It is human nature to hold onto something you think is yours i.e. the person on the hook. The main reason for camping is because the Killer feels they are losing a battle in which the only thing they own is the person on the hook. Therefore, asking the Killer to submit the hooked victim is like asking the Killer to give up something they feel belongs to them. It’s just not going to happen.

    The reward must be substantial enough for the Killer to decide they will benefit more overall. Thus BBQ and Chili comes into play. The killer uses this as an opportunity to expand their overall gameplay output. However; this perk will only benefit the person on the hook if the killer feels like they might still have a chance to turn the tides.

    The devs will not give greater rewards to a killer for not camping as this would cause imbalance in the rewards system. No reward is REASONABLY good enough to stop a killer from camping.

  • GopherGopher Member Posts: 38

    I think that new survivors will also face new killers. I agree that it can ruin a game experience for people, but hopefully they give it a second chance and try again. New killers tend to be a little campy and tunnelly. It's a learning curve for them too. I think after a killer sees that he's getting little to no points, he will change his strategy up. But again, they may just like doing it to ruin peoples experiences. In that case, they deserve the little bit of points they get. It's a tough problem to address and many ideas have surfaced that would be great, but I think it will remain unchanged simply due to the fact that the killer is punished via points for the camp.

  • TheGorgonTheGorgon Member Posts: 655
    edited September 1

    It's complicated man. This isn't just "fixing" a universal game mechanic, no, many perks and killers such as Insidious, Leatherface, Ghostface and other things vouch and encourage the gameplay of camping. It would take an overhaul and it's not something that can be done overnight or over a month. Think about it like a topic and it's sub-topics.

    You also can't "nerf" populous psychology in-game, you might be able to alter some or many peoples opinions, but it won't be a concrete and direct hit towards the issue. This will and will always be difficult to figure out and even then, don't expect it to go away completely.

  • PatchNoirPatchNoir Member Posts: 121

    i Think the best way to solve that is creating a timer to not remove killer points when putting traps around the hooked survivor. Decreasing de dying speed when killer is in x meters from the hook outside a chase, and giving extra bloodpoints in outtomb chases. Increase the penalty when inside x meters of the hook without doing actions like putting traps and breaking pallets or chasing. Reducing points earned in chase close to hooks. Increase survivors bp for safe rescue with camping killers, and increase bp earning and repair speed if killer is camping.


    As i said before every penalty not apllies if the killer is on a chase close to the hook or doing something useful, putting traps give 17 seconds pause to the penalties (sufficient time to put another trap down or walk outside the camping area), rearming the same trap does not pauses penalty.


    it will work with everyone with hag exception, does not use terror radius to create the "camping area" create a hook radius idk

  • DragonredkingDragonredking Member Posts: 873

    Increase the bleedout time on hook?

    You think killer that camp give a [BAD WORD] about how long the survivor is going to spend on hook?

    They don't camp to win they don't care about winning in the first place.

    You can make the bleedout timer infinite they still would be camping, you can show their aura they will still camp

    THEY DON'T CARE

    Punishing them won't work, rewarding them won't work either and it can't be prevented

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    I mean I don't really know if you can apply the human nature to something like this. Like killers believing the hooked survivor is theirs? That seems weird and a little unhealthy for just playing a game. The point is, it's not good game design. It would be the best for the game to nerf camping. I mean, as long as another survivor is within that radius, the penalty should be removed anyways. So killers would just have to play smart when they want to defend a hook. It seems like a healthy change to me.

  • Mtom912Mtom912 Member Posts: 317

    Yeah I’ve seen a killer when I was watching a friend who just got dbd play survivor , who most likely deranked to yellow ranks, face camped everyone first hook as LF, and had ruin and NOED, and since it was low ranks he got 3 kills from face camping, since they don’t know what to do or push through ruin, then he just hit the last person with NOED, friend did not enjoy dbd after that

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    That's why I want the change. The notice it won't do much, so they try and get better at the game. That's the point. Pretty sure camping is very effective at low ranks, since survivors don't know how to counter it. And then probably leave the game. Sure, I'd hope that they give the game more chances as well. But it's likely they won't, and I can totally understand that.

    Having killers derank because of camping just makes this worse at low ranks. If I was interested in survivor and would just be starting the game, I could very well see me regretting buying the game after one or two days.

  • PulsarPulsar Member Posts: 1,262

    How about we nerf survivors gen speed whenever the killer's heartbeat can be heard. That is what you are proposing.

  • GopherGopher Member Posts: 38

    I believe they can have the game refunded within a certain amount of hours if they are dissatisfied. And that is their right. If they are not having fun, get that refund.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    The problem is it can be effective. Especially at low ranks. Or when using Hex: Ruin and NOED.So why would a low rank killer want to play any other way, since it takes very little skill to camp. Making it less effective will definitely make more killers try and not camp.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    Have you read my post? I know it's a legit strategy. I know it can be bad when played properly by the survivors. But it's bad design. The fact that it can be still as effective as it can be right now. Why ignore low ranked players? Don't you want the game to grow?

    As I said, the radius could just be increased for radius. Or also have the penalty not apply whenever the killer is in a chase. Something I forgot to add and will add.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    But that's not the problem. I want the game to grow, not for people who play survivors refund the game. The killer lobby times can already be annoyingly long.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    Uhm, what the hell are you on about? That is pretty much just admitting that camping is the most effective strategy in the game. Lol. Killers can get kills without camping, in fact it's more effective that way. But it's just awful design because the survivor getting camped can't even play the game. Survivors doing gens is the only way to power the exit gates, plus the killer is still able to play the game exactly like in all cases.

  • KilmeranKilmeran Member Posts: 1,904

    @Gopher If it's a Steam purchase, the game has to be played for less than two hours to get a refund. Otherwise, you have to show that the game fundamentally does not work (as in incomplete game, won't launch anymore, et cetera).

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    You're right, it would probably take longer. But making camping less effective will surely make more killers want to try and get better at the game and win without camping like crazy.

    Also, Insidious just needs a complete rework. It's both awful designed and a very bad perk.

    And Leatherface is one of those low tier killers anyways that need some buffs. Ghost Face though I don't really feel like he excels at camping. No more than any other killer, since he can get revealed by the hooked survivor.

  • Locker_MonsterLocker_Monster Member Posts: 496

    The radius does not matter.

    Survivors will, just like last time, figure out where it ends and camp there. This will force Killers to either get punished or give up a free unhooking because the game is FORCING it on them.


    Again; a punishment was tried. Survivors found that magic area where the Killer was punished for camping while the Survivor was nearby to unhook their friend. It, like I said, forced the Killer to either be punished or walk away for a free unhooking.


    And if you force that kind of non-choice on new Killer players, and old ones, Killers WILL leave. And it will be more of them than your hypothetical Survivors. No one would want to play a game that slaps them in the face when the other team abuses the mechanic.

  • KilmeranKilmeran Member Posts: 1,904
    edited September 1

    @ad19970 Behavior seems uninterested in doing anything about camping. The last attempt they made was losing points in an emblem for remaining within a certain proximity of the hook unless in a chase in the area.

    And since then, they've stated it's a viable strategy and don't feel it needs additional nudges.

    I don't expect Stranger Things to retain a bunch of new players for long, anyway, and there are a host of other issues in the game in addition to camping. One is the Perk grind on top of bloodweb RNG. And their upcoming fix, two Perks after level 40, does nothing for new players. I've had a few people try DbD, and none stayed. Their primary reason wasn't camping or tunneling, but the grind. It's just too much before a new player can get the Perks for a decent build, especially when they'll rank up a lot faster than they'll get said Teachables unlocked.

    Just look back at the various free weekends and sales over the past year. They get that new player spike, but within a few weeks of it ending, numbers are back to pretty much where they were before the weekend or sale.

    Same thing will happen with Stranger Things. DbD is just too new player unfriendly.

  • immortalls96immortalls96 Member Posts: 1,555

    Ok..so..this will take some explaining as to the core issue here , camping while lame has its place , the egc for example..it would be rendered meaningless , and looking at the big picture let's face it..the devs are already viewed by the majority to favor the survivor side , and to be fair they've shown little evidence to refute this..killers grabs have been bugged for months..nothing..yet the bugs for dh were resolved very quickly, it feels that survivor priorities are favored..the devs constantly talk about whether something is fun for survivors..but never talk the same about the killer having fun..ds..got nerfed? Too weak..buffed it again, THEN nerfed enduring to remove all killer resistance to perk stuns , thano? A bad perk that's been begged for buffing for months..instead they made it worse..killer fun<survivor fun..now where am I going with this ? Well..now your suggesting that because as survivor we hate it killers should be punished for something that's not always the scummy play , and be told they arnt allowed yet survivors have no real rules to how they play..there are no penalties for any play style for survivor except farming team mates which only hurts other survivors...in fact scummy playstyles for survivors are very often rewarded , body blocking , sabo, hatch camping , etc..looks rather one sided doesnt it, I could list examples all day.. It would cause newer killers to feel undervalued and I very much think cause a mass killer exodus..why do you think high rank survivors are getting bottom rank killers ? Theres not enough high rankers... small things like this make a world of difference in this game

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    But that doesn't make a difference. If a survivor camps just outside of the radius or is anywhere else outside of the radius, either a killer is just standing at the hook and camping or knows you are there, finds you and then you are in a chase. I mean there is not telltale for a killer if a survivors is near a hook or not, except maybe for Barbeque and Chili. Just camping outside of the radius isn't abusing the mechanic in any way.

    I doubt that many killers will leave the game just because they can't camp anymore. Definitely not as much as survivors leaving the game because the game is no fun to them when they get camped. And I mean, the longer killer queue times are not hypothetical. Personally I wouldn't mind if they got shortened, by having more people play survivor again.

  • CoffengMinCoffengMin Member Posts: 826

    i got an idea, if the killer stands at X meters from a hooked survivor with no survivors around for X seconds the killer is unable to perform any action whenever he is within X meters from the hooked survivor

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    I mean that's why I said these penalties should not apply once the exit gates are ope. Of course the killer is forced to camp then.

    Also, I feel like we are getting in a spot where people don't feel like survivors are favored. Pallet vaccuum removed, exhaustion nerf, healing nerf, pallet density nerf, Mettle of Man nerf, and so on. There have been many changes that favored killer. Survivors have gotten very little buffs in comparison. It definitely was needed, but saying the devs favor survivors just isn't true anymore. And then there are map reworks coming, which will just buff most killers in the game.

    And all things you listed, are just ways for survivors to be able to gain an advantage and to win. It doesn't prevent you from playing as killer. Being camped pretty much means you can't play the game until the next match.

    I think the posts that talk about long killer queue times speak for themselves. We need more survivor players, and getting rid of the probably most frustrating thing to deal with as survivor will most likely help.

  • Locker_MonsterLocker_Monster Member Posts: 496

    You're ignoring the most important part:

    The Devs tried hook-camping punishments. Survivors abused the mechanic!


    That's right; the same Survivors screaming for hook punishments showed they can't be trusted. They showed that they would abuse any mechanic put in to give themselves a free unhooking.

    It was tried. It sucked. Accept hook camping as a bad, legit strat. Nothing else will work. It would either be unfair for Killers, OP for Survivors, or abused again.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    But that was because of the design. The Bleed Out times paused whenever a killer was within a certain radius of the hooked survivor. Survivors abused that by just hanging out at the hook the entire time, being chased by the killer, which meant the Bleed Out times didn't go down. By having only slow down the Bleed Out times, and making it so the penalty disappears as soon as the killer is in a chase or if a survivor is within that radius would make it unabusable by survivors.

  • Mtom912Mtom912 Member Posts: 317

    Tbh most people who defend camping are probably campers, since if someone doesn’t camp then they wouldn’t care if it got changed, as they wouldn’t be affected.

  • ad19970ad19970 Member Posts: 1,632

    That's what baffles me, honestly. They all say they don't camp, and I would believe them, because they do seem to be part of the experienced community. But why would you be against a change that would improve the game's health and design? I mean they are allowed to have their opinion, I just feel this will really hurt the game in the future. With killers being granted buffs many times now, plus the upcoming map reworks which I really, really welcome, survivors however might get fed up that their number 1 issue continues to be ignored. We'll see, I think the map reworks that are coming are absolutely needed, especially to help the weaker killers. But without anything for survivors, I just fear killer queue times will inrease even more. Let's hope not though.

  • Locker_MonsterLocker_Monster Member Posts: 496

    Rofl. Sure, buddy. 'if you disagree with me, you must abuse the mechanic.'

    It's not like we might be smart enough to realize, based on past experience and logic, that the idea is bad. Heaven forbid we disagree and have logic and history on our side. No, that would mean you're wrong. And you can't be wrong, so we must probably want to abuse the mechanic. 🙄


    How about this?

    Most people who want to change camping are just salty they got camped and want to remove whatever prevents them from winning.


    Or this?

    Most people who want a punishment for camping just want a mechanic they can abuse so they get free unhooks.

    (Oh wait; this one ACTUALLY HAPPENED. Well don't that just beat all! It almost like I have logic on my side and..you're....wrong! 😧)

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