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Devs, are you gonna ignore Legion's problems for the next 6 months?

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Comments

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 357

    That, for sure, will be a nice quality of life change that will make his power more fun to use.

    But without his power being lethal, he will be basically a m1 killer with no power after the first hit because you can't down people with FF. That takes out all the fun because you know that, in the end, you will need to just walk and be looped to oblivion like every other m1 killer (which isn't fun).

  • MadjuraMadjura Member Posts: 852

    You're not explicitly mentioning it but I feel like it is implied enough to address, and it also gets brought up a lot: Dealing Deep Wound damage with the Feral Frenzy attack is too unfun and can never come back.

    The exploit that you could perform by looking away or walking backwards is not the only issue with the power. Simply run Bloodhound, now no survivor can ever escape from you and you will always down them shortly after your power has recharged twice. Twice because the first and second hit don't require you to recharge.

    Now you could say "Well just remove the bleeding when in Deep Wounds" but then everyone can just simply switch in Predator and accomplish the exact same thing, you can never escape from a Legion player as a survivor.

    You could remove both the scratch marks and the bleeding while Deep Wounds is active but then you can just run Stridor and if the survivor isn't running Iron Will then there is once again nothing they can do to escape. It's not enough to stop the bleeding and scratch marks while Feral Frenzy is active because once you can move again it's very easy to find the blood trail or the scratch marks and then follow the survivor with Bloodhound or Predator.

    To make the old power work the following changes need to implemented:

    • survivors don't bleed while Deep Wounds is active
    • survivors don't leave scratch marks while Deep Wounds is active
    • survivors don't make pain sounds while Deep Wounds is active

    And at that point you might as well just rework the power like has been done instead of trying to make a badly designed and unfun power work.

    The slow vault is required because enables counterplay where you can hide a bit out of sight of the killer and vault back.

  • Shad03Shad03 Member Posts: 3,712

    While I wouldn't call their power a free first hit, Feral Frenzy is good in theory for dissing out damage.

    Unfortunately the devs seem to forget that in order to diss out damage, you'll need to be able to actually travel around fast and for lengthy periods.

    My suggestion is top revert the Feral Frenzy changes, buff base FF speed and duration, and drop the fatigue to 3 seconds. Or at the very least buff the cooldown add ons again.

    That's that I would suggest, but whenever I do, I get ignored.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 548
    edited September 13

    I believe you, but it is also a fact that the dcing guys have take it as their "victory" (like they sometimes write it in this, or the steam forums) and everytime something like that happens, it encourages people like them and that means as a consequence of it, that they continue with their toxic behavior and also it spreads since people have got the feeling that it has worked.

    Post edited by Talmeer on
  • Shad03Shad03 Member Posts: 3,712
    edited September 13

    "You're not explicitly mentioning it but I feel like it is implied enough to address, and it also gets brought up a lot: Dealing Deep Wound damage with the Feral Frenzy attack is too unfun and can never come back."

    Buddy, I explicitly stated that Deep Wounds should be nerfed and left as it is now. I don't want it back, I never used (the exploit) it unless a survivor was being a [Bad Word]. It can rot for all I care.

    "The exploit that you could perform by looking away or walking backwards is not the only issue with the power. Simply run Bloodhound, now no survivor can ever escape from you and you will always down them shortly after your power has recharged twice. Twice because the first and second hit don't require you to recharge."

    Well they removed being able to track by blood in Feral Frenzy, however that doesn't actually do anything. A good killer will always find their prey, so in context that really doesn't mean anything.

    "Now you could say "Well just remove the bleeding when in Deep Wounds" but then everyone can just simply switch in Predator and accomplish the exact same thing, you can never escape from a Legion player as a survivor."

    Except you only start seeing blood and scratch marks after you go through the fatigue, not during. So your point is void here.

    "You could remove both the scratch marks and the bleeding while Deep Wounds is active but then you can just run Stridor and if the survivor isn't running Iron Will then there is once again nothing they can do to escape. It's not enough to stop the bleeding and scratch marks while Feral Frenzy is active because once you can move again it's very easy to find the blood trail or the scratch marks and then follow the survivor with Bloodhound or Predator."

    That's basically being every single killer in the game. Hell, the Nurse does this but way better and the only thing she is getting is a add on rework.

    "To make the old power work the following changes need to implemented:

    • survivors don't bleed while Deep Wounds is active
    • survivors don't leave scratch marks while Deep Wounds is active
    • survivors don't make pain sounds while Deep Wounds is active"

    Hilariously, it already does that and it changes nothing.

    1. Survivors now don't bleed when using your power, yet are still found cause you know, they're still injured when you come out of FF.
    2. It already did that in the first iteration, point is moot.
    3. Doesn't stop me from ending FF and listening out for groans if they are still nearby, not to mention the fact FF already muffles your hearing when using it. You would know if you played Legion.

    "And at that point you might as well just rework the power like has been done instead of trying to make a badly designed and unfun power work."

    What I want is for Feral Frenzy to be fun again, not Deep Wounds. If Feral Frenzy was made fun to use again, I'm pretty sure most Legion Mains would be happy.

    "The slow vault is required because enables counterplay where you can hide a bit out of sight of the killer and vault back."

    Bamboozle would like to say hi. Also now Legion gets punished for swinging and missing a hit in FF, so there already is counterplay now.

  • MadjuraMadjura Member Posts: 852

    Buddy, I explicitly stated that Deep Wounds should be nerfed and left as it is now. I don't want it back, I never used it unless a survivor was being a [Bad Word]. It can rot for all I care.

    From the post you made before the one I quote here:

    My suggestion is top revert the Feral Frenzy changes

    To me that reads like you want the ability to deal Deep Wound damage back.

    Well they removed being able to track by blood in Feral Frenzy, however that doesn't actually do anything. A good killer will always find their prey, so in context that really doesn't mean anything.

    It removes any possibility whatsoever to get away, from any killer of any skill level. That's bad.

    Except you only start seeing blood and scratch marks after you go through the fatigue, not during. So your point is void here.

    No, my point is that it's not enough to remove that only during the fatigue but after as well. With Bloodhound and Predator you can just follow the trail after the fatigue ends. There is no way to get away from the killer if they have one of those perks. Same with Stridor, though admittedly that one is much weaker for finding survivors after fatigue than the other two.

    Hilariously, it already does that and it changes nothing.

    It does not. When the fatigue ends you can see blood and scratch marks.

    Bamboozle would like to say hi. Also now Legion gets punished for swinging and missing a hit in FF, so there already is counterplay now.

    Bamboozle doesn't work on pallets. Dodging a Feral Frenzy hit is far too difficult to be considered consistent counterplay.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 357

    Dealing damage to the deep wound bar is fine, the problem is that there was no downside of being bad, and devs can make a downside like they did 5 or more.

    The deep wound bar shouldn't go down within a 20 fixed meter range from the killer and while mending and survivors in DW shouldn't be able to use the same interactions as madness t3, that solves a lot of problems.

    Like the other guy said, a good killer can track a survivor even without seeing blood or scratch marks or hearing them. You can choose to end frenzy in a position that you can see the survivor, even with the blurred vision.

    Bamboozle makes the pallet vaulting faster too, just doesn't block it so it actually helps a lot too.

  • Shad03Shad03 Member Posts: 3,712

    Except I said Feral Frenzy, NOT Deep Wounds. If you paid attention you'll see that I am treating both as different things because they are, I want Feral Frenzy to be good, Deep Wounds shouldn't exist.

    "It removes any possibility whatsoever to get away, from any killer of any skill level. That's bad."

    So killers in general shouldn't be able to track blood now? Is that what you are suggesting?

    "No, my point is that it's not enough to remove that only during the fatigue but after as well. With Bloodhound and Predator you can just follow the trail after the fatigue ends. There is no way to get away from the killer if they have one of those perks. Same with Stridor, though admittedly that one is much weaker for finding survivors after fatigue than the other two."

    So basically you want killers to not be able to track blood or scratch marks, because those are tools a killer uses to find survivors. Actually, Legion is possibly the worst one to do so now considering Feral Frenzy blocks scratch marks, muffles noise, and removes blood. And the fatigue is four seconds, enough for a good survivor to hide away behind a rock or building. The main point is, Legion should not be excluded from tracking blood simply because their power can occasionally injure people more then average killers.

    "It does not. When the fatigue ends you can see blood and scratch marks."

    And why shouldn't it? The Legion becomes a normal killer after the fatigue, so my point still stands, unless you want killers to not be able to see blood or scratch marks, why should Legion be an exception to the rule?

    "Bamboozle doesn't work on pallets. Dodging a Feral Frenzy hit is far too difficult to be considered consistent counterplay."

    For whatever reason, you can vault faster now with bamboozle on pallets when you couldn't before. Also, it's no more difficult then dodging a normal hit. Sure the lunge is extended but a fail means you can run scott free.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 548
    edited September 13

    I think also that it is necessary to make the frenzy changes undone.

    Deep wounds... Well... we should wait for that until we know what for addon changes will happen.

    The last thing on earth, the Legion needs is, to have again so overpowerd addons as she had before. Then the nerf cycle would start again.

    Also it would be good imo, because then some survivors would be forced to learn the default Legion to know (in some way), so that they finally also be forced to stop with their exaggerations.

    Or at least, if they don't, everybody would know what for kind of people are writing there.

  • AlmoAlmo Member, Dev Posts: 204

    DC penalties are in the works. We're aware it's an issue; but with deadicated servers, we'll have more tools to deal with chronic DCing players.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 548

    Thank you for your response.

    Let us hope that those new possibilities stop the dcing people.

  • phantasmalphantasmal Member Posts: 125


    The slow vault is required because enables counterplay where you can hide a bit out of sight of the killer and vault back.

    The slower vaulting speed is not really what allows that but the fact that Legion flies forward like 16billion miles after vaulting

    And there's more to do at loops then just vault back. You can fake the vault back and hope the Legion player swings which they might do since they expect you to try that move. You can also keep going around the loop and after breaking LOS deviate slightly from the standard loop route. Since FF only lasts for 10s and has zero tolerance for mistakes the Legion player really can't afford the luxury to observe you carefully, they have to close the gap asap. If you break los the lack of scratch marks allow you to run away and bank on the Legion player assuming you are still looping that place.

    But sometimes even just continuing going around is enough to outlast FF. The slow vaulting speed and the huge forward momentum after vaulting means that any distance he gains on you can easily be nullified with optimal wall hugging.

  • UlvenDagothUlvenDagoth Member Posts: 2,220
  • MadjuraMadjura Member Posts: 852

    Pretty sure everyone agrees that the Deep Wounds exploit was terrible, but that should've been nerfed and just left like that.

    From this post: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/684948/#Comment_684948

    The way I read it: You think the old power, with Deep Wound damage, would have been fine if the timer didn't tick down while near the killer (or with any other change that removes the exploit).

    So killers in general shouldn't be able to track blood now? Is that what you are suggesting?

    "Any killer" refers to any killer player. Only Legion with the old power can't be allowed to see blood ever, because then it becomes impossible to escape if the killer has Bloodhound. Same for Predator and Stridor with scratch marks and sounds, respectively.

    I am only talking about the old power, where you can reduce the Deep Wound timer with Feral Frenzy attacks.

    You are camera locked during the vault. Slower vault means longer camera lock which means survivors have an easier time to get away.

  • DBDbuildsYTDBDbuildsYT Member Posts: 1,042

    There isn't much to monitor, legion is incredibly unfunny to play, they have the only non lethal power and a long stun.

    This power doesn't work, it's either too weak or too strong.

    Something needs to be done, you cannot just dismiss the experience of the few people who actually play legion consistently

  • RakimSockemRakimSockem Member Posts: 480

    There is no problem.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 548
    edited September 14

    The old Legion would be fine, if they had fix the exploits and if they had not give the Legion such powerfull addons.

    Imo a big part of the old Legion addons were made to outwight the weaknesses of the old Legion. Sadly that had fire back badly, since they were a primary reason why survivors were and some are still, upset about the old Legion.

    Also at least for some Legion mains they were too strong. I as example had never fun with them. The 1 time I had use Franks Mixtape for testing purposes, I had just sit there and thought "when gets the frenzy finally over?". A special abilitie feels not as a special abilitie if she had a feeled duration of 3 hours (I'm exaggerate, but I guess everyone gets what I am trying to say here).

    I would also bet with everyone, that we would see not many real nerf threads* about the Legion, if bhvr would revive just the base abilities of the Legion (with exploits fixed of course and no addons).

    *Under real nerf threads I understand nerf threads that a written by people, that are upset about a game mechanic. This includes not people that write nerf threads because they hate game mechanic XYZ (because they are not interested in balance, they just want to see something go) and also not nerf threads from people that complain about just everything (aka. some people that shift from 1 nerf topic to another, like seen after the Legion patch, that some have directly shift over in Nurse, Spirit, Billy, Meyers, Huntress and other killer nerf threads - I can not take such people seriously - srs guys why you play a game where everything is for you to difficult? Anyways, no answer needed).

  • DBDbuildsYTDBDbuildsYT Member Posts: 1,042

    Hi Talmeer, I want a Legion rework as m change as you, so please avoid bring into the discussions the old legion.

    The old legion is gone, too many things went wrong with that killer and if you bring the old legion gin into a conversation you are actually hurting the chances of a rework.

    Please forget the old legion and let's all unite to get a decent, fun and viable new legion.

    The first step is to get the steaming pile of garbage, aka current legion, changed

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 548
    edited September 14

    I have my doubts, that we will ever again see a big Legion patch as we have seen it in the past.

    But I bet what we might will see are some changes that prior 1 or 2 specific things depending the Legion, or that they undone parts of the Legion patch (like the frenzy speed and vault speed).

    Just because that would be faster to made as to do a second rework patch.

    What myself matters, so don't worry, I will get anyways more and more silent with the time (I'm writing already less).

    I had promise some friends to hold them up to date* what the Legion matters in the days back then, but oh boy... I never thought in this days, that it would take so much time to see some changes by the Legion - even were she is at a place where everybody can see that the Legion struggles with some serious problems.

    Also my own patience is running thinner and thinner. I am still interested in the Legion and with it - dbd, but I don't know how long I can hold up that interesd, even with something like a promise to friends in the background.

    So, tl:dr, then this interest is gone, I am also and I bet then are some guys real happy :).

    Edit: They had leave like me on the Legion patchday dbd, I just said to them that I say them when they have finally undone some things, so that they might come back.

  • DBDbuildsYTDBDbuildsYT Member Posts: 1,042

    Eh I agree with your loss of interest, unfortunately the old legion wronged survivors and survivors hold the power in dbd.

    One killer, who was easy to beat by gen rushing, dared to xhallenge their looping game and they lobbied until legion was no more.

    The only hope is for legion to move away from that type of fame and fly under the radar as an average mid tier killer, then we can have something which won't be lobbied into the pile of trash that we have atm.

    Any good legion would be lobbied once again.

    Killers opinions do not really count

  • AcromioAcromio Member Posts: 1,014

    Short answer: yes.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 548
    edited September 14

    Well under this friends was also 1 survivor^^ (he was already less interested in dbd and then the devs decided to take another variety from the m1 killers out - that was the moment for him).

    The Legion haters will always be here and they will cry about every positive change that happens to the Legion. No matter if it makes the Legion stronger, or if those changes are just "quality of live", or fun changes and that means, we can't take any hindsight on them.

    But as you, I am also afraid of a strong coming back of the Legion. That is why I always see already heaven falling when somebody brings addon changes in :/.

  • Warlock_2020Warlock_2020 Member Posts: 1,262

    I get that some Legion players legit enjoyed the old version and played it straight up without exploits. That said, Legion has been poor design from the start. The survivor side is already tedious and consists of a lot of M1 holding. Legion, even now, makes that even worse. You hold M1 even more. Add to it the fact that they are most often played as a massive tunneling killer and Legion is an absolute snoozefest on survivor side.

    Heck, I have always cringed when I get Legion dailies. Apply deep wounds 4 times, get 4 hooks for chili, and then run laps around the outside of the map. I find Legion to be silly easy to track and kill. At red ranks it changes drastically for Legion mains because you jump considerably in talent on the survivor side.

    I think there should be talk of a total rework of Legion's power and make it something fun, unique, and viable. That is where this conversation should move.

    To sum up, poor design, rework.

  • It took them over a year to fix Fred after they over nerfed him. Expect even longer for Legion. The pace at which BHVR balances their game is glacial compared to a majority of other developers

  • MadjuraMadjura Member Posts: 852

    Eh I agree with your loss of interest, unfortunately the old legion wronged survivors and survivors hold the power in dbd.

    Old Legion had no counterplay and was incredibly unfun to play against.

    See my post here for what changes would be necessary to make the power fair to play against: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/comment/684976/#Comment_684976

    I get that some Legion players legit enjoyed the old version and played it straight up without exploits.

    Old Legion with Bloodhound and/or Predator and/or Stridor still had no counterplay even if you did not abuse the Deep Wound timer mechanic.

    The survivor side is already tedious and consists of a lot of M1 holding. Legion, even now, makes that even worse. You hold M1 even more. 

    That's more a problem with the game design in general than with Legion. Generators have always been a boring objective.

     Add to it the fact that they are most often played as a massive tunneling killer and Legion is an absolute snoozefest on survivor side.

    That's a horrible inefficient playstyle. The problem here is not Legion, but the awful and meaningless rank system.

    I think there should be talk of a total rework of Legion's power and make it something fun, unique, and viable. That is where this conversation should move.

    • Current Legion is viable.
    • The original gameplay fantasy is still there. If you like old Legion but don't like current Legion then you don't actually like the Legion gameplay fantasy, you like playing something that has no counterplay.
    • Current Legion has a unique playstyle: The only killer that can quickly put pressure on multiple survivors at once..
    • "Let's completely rework an entire killer because I don't find them fun" is not viable feedback.

    Old Freddy was unhealthy for the game and had to go completely. Current Legion gameplay is perfectly fine and there is no reason to rework the character again. Whatever power you think would be appropiate for current Legion would be better suited as its own thing on a new killer instead of completely scrapping the current power.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 548

    I could throw now at you some links with videos to counterplay to the old Legion, but we both know that it would be a waste of time and I understand it.

    Those "op Legion videos" don't make you thinking and people can still stay in their comfort zone^^.

    The survivor friend of mine had did counterplay. Thinking back, maybe I should have made with him a tutorial video, but I guess it would struggle with the same problem like any other tutorial video out there - it would not let their watchers stay in their comfort zone.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 357

    "Current Legion is viable."

    Yeah, until purple ranks. When you are about to hit the 3rd survivor, the 1st already mended because he saw you running to the other 2, no big brain needed.

    "The original gameplay fantasy is still there. If you like old Legion but don't like current Legion then you don't actually like the Legion gameplay fantasy, you like playing something that has no counterplay."

    The original gamplay fantasy is a fast stabbing and agile killer that hits multiple people in a short duration. As you can see there is no fast stabbing or agile involved with the new legion. And he is not effective at hitting multiple survivors tho.

    "Current Legion has a unique playstyle: The only killer that can quickly put pressure on multiple survivors at once.."

    That just happens when survivors are extremely close to each other, don't know how legion works and are blind/deaf to not hear a terror radius and see him coming.

    ""Let's completely rework an entire killer because I don't find them fun" is not viable feedback."

    You scroll through the forum and you can see people that stopped playing legion or quitted the game because he is very unfun to play, it's not just his opinion. A character MUST be fun to play as primarily, then you see if he is fun to play against. Yes, it's very viable feedback.

  • MadjuraMadjura Member Posts: 852
    edited September 14

    Yeah, until purple ranks. When you are about to hit the 3rd survivor, the 1st already mended because he saw you running to the other 2, no big brain needed.

    And now you have three wounded survivors instead of three healthy survivors, in a short amount of time.

    The original gamplay fantasy is a fast stabbing and agile killer that hits multiple people in a short duration. As you can see there is no fast stabbing or agile involved with the new legion.

    That is all still there.

    And he is not effective at hitting multiple survivors tho.

    He is.

    That just happens when survivors are extremely close to each other, don't know how legion works and are blind/deaf to not hear a terror radius and see him coming.

    Bigger terror radius means it's easier to find people. The distance you can cover with the current version is the same or even bigger than with the old one. For you to be unable to hit multiple survivors with your power requires all survivors to run in different directions, and while they are doing this they are not on gens which is also good.

    You scroll through the forum and you can see people that stopped playing legion or quitted the game because he is very unfun to play, it's not just his opinion. A character MUST be fun to play as primarily, then you see if he is fun to play against.

    If the only way those people can have fun is by playing something that makes every other player miserable because of how uninteractive and monotone it is then the game is better off without them. Emphasis on "THE ONLY WAY". I am not talking about people who think old Legion was fun, I am talking about people who can LITERALLY only have fun in the game by playing old Legion and only those people. The old gameplay was not healthy for the game and had to go. Players who can only have fun at the expense of other players are not something any online game needs.

    There were also a lot more people saying that Legion is not fun to play against than there are saying that the current version is not fun.

    Yes, it's very viable feedback.

    No, it's really not. Removing a perfectly fine power from the game and replacing it with something new is a colossal waste of development time. It makes much more sense to keep current Legion and give whatever new power people think they should have to a new killer.

    Old Legion had to go because the power was unhealthy for the game. Old Freddy had to go for the same reason. New Legion does not have that problem and replacing the power makes no sense.

  • DBDbuildsYTDBDbuildsYT Member Posts: 1,042

    This is really a message from someone who doesn't play legion at all

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