I'm not even arguing with this. It just seems to me that you don't play legion.
How am I supposed to discuss with a "He is" or "That is all still there".
He certainly doesn't play legion, that's all theory.
@Madjura Show us a good amount of red ranks legion games where you use this strategy please
All that he is saying is what is good on paper and not on practice. He just doesn't know what he is saying at all, but ok.
Okay. Let me be absolutely crystal clear since you don't seem to get it:
I do not not want old Deep Wounds back. I just want the Feral Frenzy, the thing that makes you run and vault faster then normal, to be buffed. Deep Wounds is the part of the power I don't want ever touched again as it is a bad component of the power and deserved to be nerfed.
You also didn't address a lot of my points, so don't know what you're doing there.
"The way I read it: You think the old power, with Deep Wound damage, would have been fine if the timer didn't tick down while near the killer (or with any other change that removes the exploit)."
Except I didn't say or (to me at least) imply I wanted Deep Wounds to go back to the way it was in any form. I merely wanted the Feral Frenzy to be buffed.
"'Any killer' refers to any killer player. Only Legion with the old power can't be allowed to see blood ever, because then it becomes impossible to escape if the killer has Bloodhound. Same for Predator and Stridor with scratch marks and sounds, respectively.
I am only talking about the old power, where you can reduce the Deep Wound timer with Feral Frenzy attacks."
With the right perks it's near impossible to escape any killer (Trapper, Wraith, Hillbilly, Nurse, etc) with those perks. Legion isn't any different in that sense. Besides, in case you haven't heard, they removed the blood seeing in this current form of Legion while they are in Feral Frenzy and during the fatigue.
And I wasn't talking about the old power. I don't care about Deep Wounds. I care about Feral Frenzy, cause that was when I had the most fun by being a speedy boy.
Imo frenzy could be buffed to the old state, without fearing any balance issuses, as long, as deep wounds stays untouched in its current state.
Edit: The moment they would touch deep wounds again, then would first the balancing and its possible issuses begin, imo. Still since the most people just want to be fast and stabby stabby, a working deep wounds effect is for it not necessary.
I don't even personally play Legion, let alone Killer, and it made me really sad to see what's become of them. I fell in love with their concept, their power, their edge (lool) and I do remember being somewhat to very annoyed about the moonwalking exploit, but I didn't expect the power to be basically useless as far as downing people.
I imagined they would need to smack you, but still needed 4 hits in order to down you. That - or they would need to travel to another player(s) before returning to their original target and smack another hit or two before downing them. I thought *that* was why they extended the Frenzy timer, but nope ;-;
I still love Legion, but now I probably enjoy them because they're weak as hell LOL. Honestly, at some points they're just plain boring. I wanna see what the devs can do in the future with these cuties. Rip our babies.
Please do not lower the quality of this discussion. If you have no proper arguments to make or address then kindly stay out of it.
This is the exact quote:
Pretty sure everyone agrees that the Deep Wounds exploit was terrible, but that should've been nerfed and just left like that.
"[t]he Deep Wounds exploit [...] should've been nerfed and just left like that."
What do you mean by this if not "The problem with old Deep Wounds was the exploit and when that is removed it can be left like it is"?
I ignored most of your comments because I am specifically talking about the old version of Feral Frenzy where you can deal damage to the Deep Wound timer. I did so because I was, and still am, under the impression that in your original post, which I have quoted above in this post, you claim that the old power is fine if only the exploit was removed. I am not talking about the current power at all, which means none of the points I ignored are relevant to my arguments.
With the right perks it's near impossible to escape any killer (Trapper, Wraith, Hillbilly, Nurse, etc) with those perks. Legion isn't any different in that sense.
But with the old power, where you can deal damage to the Deep Wounder, it is not nearly impossible, it is literally impossible.
Besides, in case you haven't heard, they removed the blood seeing in this current form of Legion while they are in Feral Frenzy and during the fatigue.
And I have never claimed otherwise. In the quote you referring to I have mentioned twice that I am talking about the old power, the pre-rework Legion. Not the current version where you cannot deal damage to the Deep Wound timer without an add-on, the one that is currently playable in the game.
Then let's restart the discussion:
What changes to the current version of Legion, the one playable in the game right now, would you like to see?
So you don't have any proofs of your ideas? Nothing at all? Not even a couple of videos to teach us?
I do not have videos. I will concede the point that I can not prove the viability. I want to add that I feel it is unfair to expect a single user to prove the strength of a killer on the spot, as the most immediate way I can think of would be a large quantity of videos as there are no killer-specific stats available. That however is one me as I was the one making the claim that Legion is viable.
There is however an indication that supports my argument:
We're still watching data on them, and will make further adjustments if we feel it is necessary.
This implies that the developers have been monitoring Legion and do not feel an immediate need to make changes but rather only in the future. As the nature of those changes is not known it does not make sense to speculate what is going to be changed exactly.
And please feel free to address the numerous other arguments I have made that you have conveniently ignored to instead go for personal attacks.
Statistics can tell you if a killer is op, or not. Or how often he is played.
Still they can't tell if it makes fun to play them, because that is just a feeling we all have, or not.
So, I hope, that they not only look in the data.
The most complains about the new Legion is that they make no fun after all.
There's no need to address any arguments if you don't know precisely the experience of playing legion at high ranks.
Legion doesn't work, their power is completely useless, survivors can repair gens in your face when they have deep wound knowing that they will have a 4 seconds stun to run away, that's basically a free ds since ds loses 0.7 seconds of the animation so it's 4.3 vs 4 seconds. Nothing works on legion, a non lethal power combined with a slow vault.
Mending is a stupid mechanic, nobody likes to mend, it is a useless exercise in wasting time for nothing.
Legion needs to be rebuilt from scratch, and nobody who tries legion at high ranks can succeed with the killer consistently because legion is worse than trapper and probably even worse than wraith.
It's a pile of garbage and unless you can can prove your point with data, all the theory of the world won't help this argument.
Not I trust the devs data, since in their opinion it was OK to render legion a pile of junk.
These devs have shown time and time again to not understand high level play.
Because they simply do not play the game at high ranks.
Winning with legion at high ranks is not a merit, is simply survivors playing like potatoes.
This killer is utterly indefensible and I don't know about your job, but in most jobs if you fix something and you break it, you are expected to fix it again and not wait until its gone rotten.
I don't think my full message came through. Old Legion was toxic and not good for the game. New Legion is boring for both the killer and the survivor. It does not matter if he is viable, I don't disagree there. What matters is that the power of the killer exemplifies the bland survivor play to begin with. Thus, a rework would be more beneficial all the way around. I think the character has plenty of upside, just needs a rework.
Devs mentioned on a stream that they will most likely change some of legions addons. The ones that debuff survivors when hit twice in frenzy will work on 1st hit instead.
“Winning with legion at high ranks is not a merit, is simply survivors playing like potatoes.”
While I think this is true for pretty much all M1 killers, it applies extra hard to Legion. Against skilled survivors you are literally a powerless killer
Sad but true :)
It's not a matter of lowering the quality of this discussion. I even want the opposite. You brought nothing to this discussion by saying "he is". How am I supposed to discuss that? It's like you're saying "NO, because no", now don't blame me for that. Instead, justify why he is good and viable, defend your point of view. We're here for that.
Your affirmations just seemed like you don't play legion at high ranks, because playing legion at high ranks feels like flipping a coin.
*When going to hit a survivor in feral frenzy* "Am I gonna hit, or is the autoaim going to make me miss and gg?"
*While in a chase* "Please do a mistake so i can catch you and benefit from it" (We all know that in red/high purple ranks this normally doesn't happen).
Sry Warlock, but I need to say:
A killer can't be toxic. What can be toxic are the killer ->players<- and yes there you are right. Some Legions were toxic. At least I have seen some in streams/videos and on the Legion patch day, I was by myself very toxic - at least according to the survivor rules book. Don't know how many survivors I had mori on this day - the first day I had ever use them -_-.
But what should I say to my defence? The circumstances of that day, the circumstances of that day...
Also I have the strong believe that it was not positive for the communitie, that dbd lost the Legion. The Legion was 1 of a few killers in dbd, that had a special playstyle and every killer (not just the Legion) that offers a special playstyle also attracts a specific type of player.
Those players don't stay at a game, if their reason to stay breakes away.
The only people that have profit from it, were the people that have dislike or hate the Legion, but some of them were so toxic that it was in my eyes a deal with the devil.
Yes, that is on the list to be fixed soon.
The devs themselves said that Legion with his current base speed + his old FF speed would be insanely fast, fast enough to basically traverse a big chunk of the map in a very small time frame. They had to nerf FF's move speed to compensate. If you want his old base speed back with his old FF speed, they might consider doing that. But realistically you're moving faster with new Legion than you were with old.
You can't be serious when you say a killer can't be toxic. Your quote about the survivor rule book is nothing more than a scapegoat. Anyone with common sense knows that either side can be toxic. Heck, survivors can throw that stupid rulebook crap right back at us. Toxic to loop, instant heals, brand new part, second chance meta, tea bag, the list of whining goes on and on from both sides.
Legion was a horrible design and was clearly in need of changes. Are the current changes good? Perhaps not, but old Legion was bad all the way around.
I have by myself never take those "rules" from survivors or killers serious. What is allowed and what not, is shown via the game mechanics as long, as nobody exploits them.
But, there is no horrible design.
One guy dislikes a mechanic, the other likes it.
When I play my ms-warrior in wow as example, I could everytime bite in my keyboard when I have to deal with a frostmage (because feeled 3 million ccs's) or the most healing classes (because there heal is usually strong enough to survive 1 dd that nibbles on them). Still I'm ok with it.
Because there are other classes, where I have my chance and I see those guys not in every match (besides that frostmages are still possible, they are just annoyance as f.).
Back to dbd, a lot of people have like and some even love the old Legion. I had even make extra screenshots from endgame chats with happy survivors, because I had already know before that I will exactly run in your argument, sooner - or later.
On the other hand, there are a lot of people that have dislike, or even hate the Legion, but I tell you something... Exactly that shows a good design.
It needs to be edgy!
Every killer in dbd and every game mechanic has its lovers and haters. Did you think that I as a killer have enjoy all those speed% + perks? I wouldn't mind if they would go... But I think, that the most survivors have there might a different viewpoint and would say no and that's ok :).
It's in the game, so its something I have to deal with, as long as I play the game.
Besides that, how would you hold people now in the game, that have only join dbd because of a killer like the Legion?
Yeah, I know, they were all noobs and all of them were just bad person's - I know the opinion of some survivors here in those forums "blah, blah, blah, Legion this, Legion that" - but those people were also customers that have buy this dlc and god knows how many cosmetics - aka. they were part of a group who have give the devs money and as a companie, you should like money (because there is never enough).
So tl:dr, what would you offer those guys now?
There is nothing left! The Legion was not like the m1 killers, where it would be ok if 1 goes away, since there exist a ton of them in the game. The Legion was unique and as a consequence of that, has dbd nothing to offer anymore to those players and that means a part of their income breakes away and they will get a lot of negativity. Either here in the forums, or on other platforms, or in talks in real life.
This situation should never had happened and she should be solved as fast as possible, or it will go on and on and on and... I bet you know already what I will say now... on.
Not a very compelling argument while we have Spirit (7.04m/s while phasing), Hillbilly (9.2m/s while sprinting) and Nurse (13.33m/s while blinking) in the same game as Legion. All of them being able to further increase their speed with add-ons and have way less drawbacks to their power.
FF currently is completely useless for traversing the map if you can't get at least 1 (more realistically 2) extention to it. The break-even point for durtion is 19s, any less than that and you'd have gained more distance by just walking.
You are already giving up pretty much every form of tracking by activating FF (no scratch marks, blood, muffled sounds, slight screen blur), does it really have to be inefficent for getting around as well?
Which leads to the obvious counterplay Legion's power always had (if we ignore the DW exploits): splitting up. Legion's power allows him to quickly injure everyone, if they are grouped up. He can never catch up to anyone with at least a 10m headstart (7.68 back in the old days), essentially nullifying his only power, stalling. Imagine thinking that a power like that needs an easy 1v1 counterplay at pallets. :V
Spirit is exactly why they didn't keep his speed the same. She's a 110% killer. Hillbilly can only move in a straight line with his chainsaw, and Nurse has a fatigue every time she blinks, which is in reality many more fatigues than Legion will ever know. Legion has much more control of movement than any of the characters you mentioned, and with 115% speed plus fatigue speed being as fast as previously, he'd just traverse the map entirely too fast, and he can still cancel his power once catching up to someone. If they did want to give him this option, perhaps they could make it where he couldn't cancel his power, including misses once using it, forcing him to either wait it out, or keep hitting them/find other survivors. This would force him to use his higher mobility to find other survivors instead of hitting them with DW, and then cancelling/continuing to chase one survivor.
As for his counterplay, would you rather he had no counterplay? Every character has some form of counterplay. Splitting up is pretty much Legion's only counterplay to his actual power, which is essentially a mini Plague vomit(he can injure every survivor on the map if they don't split up in a very quick time frame. To be fair, Plague's vomit is better, as they are forced to stay injured unless they cleanse, but the fact remains that if survivors didn't split up to counter Legion's power, then they would simply just keep getting picked off). I don't think that Legion is SUPPOSED to chain hit all four every time he uses his power, which is a misconception I think that other people believe he should. I think 2 survivors is good, 4 survivors is supposed to be a lucky/rare case.
I mean yeah pretty much.
Thats not really how it is. Billy can a tiny bit change his direction shortly before he is fully "charged" (is that the correct word?, I guess you know what I mean), but yes of course, its not the same like with the Legion.
I assume that the most Legion players would happyley change their actual base-movement speed back to the old one, if some frenzy changes would go along with that.
What dw matters... They should just delete it and transform it into a pure dmg abilitie imo (what know I? maybe then every frenzy hit makes 10% - 20% dmg on a survivor or so - directly). The ability is anyways already useless and serves no other purpose anymore as to annoy the Legion player and the survivors.
Hillbilly can only move in a straight line with his chainsaw
Well, I mean he isn't locked into a forward movement, he is able to steer slightly to the left and right, which can be increased tremendously with add-ons.
Nurse has a fatigue every time she blinks, which is in reality many more fatigues than Legion will ever know.
Only cause Legion can't use his power for mobility? Otherwise they have double the fatigue timer.
with 115% speed plus fatigue speed being as fast as previously
Legion got an extra 1 second of fatigue when they got reworked, that alone counterbalances the +5% base movement speed when it comes to catching up.
Legion has much more control of movement than any of the characters you mentioned
I mean how often does that make a difference when it comes to traversing the map? Maybe on something like Lery's but otherwise you don't have to do extreme parkour to get from point A to point B.
Also, additionally, none of those three killers suffer a power penalty for basic actions such as: getting stunned or for just hitting a survivor with a basic attack. Imagine if like Billy couldn't charge his chainsaw for +10 seconds after M1ing a survivor.
As for his counterplay, would you rather he had no counterplay?
That's not what I was trying to say, even if I worded it awkwardly.
I don't think that Legion is SUPPOSED to chain hit all four every time he uses his power, which is a misconception I think that other people believe he should. I think 2 survivors is good, 4 survivors is supposed to be a lucky/rare case.
I suppose that's true.
The overwhelming majority disagreed with you on original Legion. Even heavily killer biased streamers like Tyde had issues with Legion. He was a bad design and implantation. I still think he is lackluster and would love to see his name match his power. Something along the lines of being able to switch between members during the match and each having a slightly different set of strengths.
Either way, our discussion is pretty much at a wall. You love Legion as he was, and almost everyone who did not use him hated him. The end.
You are right, but I try also to "bring the other point of view" into the discussion, from the people that were too long silent and also a bit common sense (that means, less exaggerations and more "how it was/is").
I honestly don't know btw. if the overwhelming majority was "anti Legion" btw.
I had hundrets of friendly and/or happy people in my endgame chat and if we hold now in mind, that the standard dbd game has something around 2-4 survivors in a match - those people would easily outwight the nerf cryers we have seen in this, or the steam frorums and I was only 1 Legion - there were a ton of other people that have also play the Legion.
Of course, not everyone of them had a nice endgame chat - at least I think since it also hangs together how you play as a killer - still... that's a number hard to outwight.
And as a matter of fact, I have never seen official numbers from bhvr, how many people have complain compared to how many people were ok with it.
And as long, as I don't do this, I can only choose the site in which I more believe and thats for me the pro site, how you are btw. also be forced to do also, just that you stay on the other site :).
Edit: Btw. Your concept for a killer btw. sounds also good.