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Devs, are you gonna ignore Legion's problems for the next 6 months?



  • Chaotic_RiddleChaotic_Riddle Member Posts: 1,949

    Mmmm, I could put it on my fourth perk slot for extra stall if I replace it with Bamboozle or Coulrophobia. It’s not bad at all for Legion, I just hope it gets a QoL update for the whole ‘you lose this perk if your obsession dies’ gimmick.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    My point was that if you are chasing someone, they are going to still be leaving scratch marks when you come out of your power. You shouldn't be able to "lose someone" when your power ends. That said, no I haven't played Legion because I don't own them. I would if I could, but I don't have the money for that right now and want to get all the perks I can from the shrine before I buy characters with my iridescent shards considering the cost is insane. I've faced Legions who have hit 3+ survivors multiple times in a match btw, in fact most I have faced have managed.

    I am pretty sure I showed the math and the numbers. New Legion is still slightly faster. They may feel slower, but they are not. Not by much, sure, but they are still faster, even if it is very little. I don't think it was ever intended to be a straight buff though. After looking back, somehow the math I did is missing. I don't know how, as I was typing it out in the text box. Maybe I deleted it because it was too much information, but I thought I kept it there specifically so no one could be all "bologna! Your math is wrong!". It has to be in one of my messages somewhere...Either way, if you've done the math yourself then you can realize that if Legion is using their power AT EVERY moment they can, they are AT LEAST the same speed, with Legion being slightly faster. Legion however will not use their power AT EVERY OPPORTUNITY, making the base speed increase a bigger buff than you'd think.

    What does it matter if I play them or not? The only thing I have mentioned are facts, not opinions. If I could play them, I would, but I can't. Legion is NOT slower, and the devs said(which was the original thing I said, which got so many people to argue with me), that if he kept both his old FF speed AND his new base speed, he would be able to traverse the map far too quickly. If people want Deep Wounds gone and only want his movement speed as his power, they for SURE cannot increase his speed, his current speed even may be too fast, because he will just down someone extremely quickly as he does not have to wipe his blade in FF, and moves faster than any other killer except for CLOAKED Wraith by a 1% difference. Do you know how fast cloaked Wraith moves? Fast enough to go between two doors on the opposite sides of the map and catch the last survivor EASILY after closing the hatch. Think of Deep Wounds as a limiter on Legion as well as a stall tactic. I can't imagine Legion NOT having it, because it would make them far too powerful.

  • Raven014Raven014 Member Posts: 4,188

    Legion is suffering from the same thing Plague does. They're kits are useless because nobody actively heals/cleanses, and become M1 killers at that point.

    The main point I was making is that nobody cares about the deep wound effect. If the devs didn't balance it around that mechanic, then we might be able to get a better feral frenzy.

    Addonless Legion is possible, but very difficult in red ranks. Even I wouldn't be masochistic enough to do that to myself... : P

  • Nemmy_WemmyNemmy_Wemmy Member Posts: 576

    Yeah to bad its not like STBFL and make it to where you lose a stack or two for killing them or something along those lines, I dont think a perk should become useless unless its a hex bc thats a gamble and should be like that.

  • Chaotic_RiddleChaotic_Riddle Member Posts: 1,949

    Exactly. But it’s whatever, it seems nice, but it just encourages gameplay I’m not happy with, which is leaving one person alive to have the other’s suffer, just like all of Michael’s perks.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,487
    edited September 2019

    Serious Atrushan...

    When I see a survivor running away for me in situations he would have definitely not to pre patch times, I just know that the Legion is slower. That is all the evidence someone need.

    There is no complicated math needed and what the "speed argument" matters... Would be interesting seeing the devs, saying that to a math teacher.

    Would at least make me giggle.

    Imo, this argument, together with the + on the base movement speed was made to trick us pre patch Legion mains and to say it in all honestly - in a very poor way.

    That is one reason why I am so angry about the Legion patch and the people responsible for it. They must have think that they would all of us trick with this... -I don't know how to say it better- crap.

    But then the reality has come in, as usual, and as Legion main you know of course the Legion. So it hasen't work out. Was just another reason to be mad about.

  • DBDbuildsYTDBDbuildsYT Member Posts: 1,042

    You have stated theory, and theory doesn't make legion viable.

    You can be viable IN SPITE of legion, if you are extremely good but legion is an indefensible pile of trash.

    Show us any video evidence of it being viable or your opinions don't really matter

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,487

    Well, that is a bit drastically, I guess.

    Every opinion matters imo - I just wish sometimes that the people that don't know the Legion first hand would listen more to the people who really know the Legion - aka. the Legion mains.

  • yeetyeet Member Posts: 1,800

    legion has always been bad and still is, i don't see how anyone could ever think he was actually overpowered, just unfun to play against

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    Tell me something. Where have I said anywhere that Legion is "viable"? I have said facts, that is literally all I have stated, and have not argued for or against Legion as a killer. I have not stated anything about Legion's strength or weakness in the game at all. You're just putting words in my mouth. That said..

    I wouldn't say Legion is as bad as you say.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,487

    I have not watch those videos yet, since I need to make me ready in a few minutes for bed, but I wouldn't take streamers opinions to highly in dbd, after my experience.

    Sometimes the videos look almost as would they have hang with the survivors in a chat and saying to them something like "play extra stupid". Don't know if that is true, but I had watch a lot of Legion op videos in the past, linked by survivors that I have discuss with and sometimes... Wish I had only one time survivors like I have seen in some streamer videos in my matches...

    Thats not bad if you like to make a tutorial video on how to play better as killer, or how to do counterplays better as survivor, since everybody can better learn when the whole things happen more slowly as usual in a match, but when someone trys to show his "opness", or the opness of a killer, it gets a bitter taste.

    Imo, the people with the best knoweldge about something are the mains of whatever, because they play usually their killer, or survivor perk (as example) multiple times/each day.

    Then the devs, since they doing hopefully a lot of testing (maybe? - not sure after the Legion patch).

    And then coming the people that sometimes a killer/perk play, for whatever reason (that would be where I would settle the most streamers in if they not main the things they are talking about - then you can push them 2 steps higher on the ladder).

    Aaand then coming the people that had never, ever play that killer/perk, if we like to go down the "they knowing how it really is" ladder.

    With that, I don't like to say, that "Legion mains" know anything better... I have a great knoweldge about the pre patch Legion and a very bad memory on my testgames on the Legion patch day, but I bet you could me teach some lessons about some survivor perks, since I have only play rarly survivors (guess 70-75% of my gametime was pre patch Legion, then maybe 10% survivors and the rest other killers like Meyers and Clown as example).

    Sorry for "intervene" here a bit. I just like to do my part, so that everybody feels ok with the discussion thats going on here.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited September 2019

    Your fact is right and wrong at the same time. New Legion is faster in the long run but in the short run the old one was better.

    We must not also forget that old frenzy was much more dynamic because you could use it at 25%, which for me, was the worst nerf in frenzy (except the one that you can't kill someone with it). Even without the better distance, you weren't dependant on a single use frenzy but instead, if the first goes wrong (you only hit 1 survivors), you will always have a second one ready for you.

    This brings room for error, and the new one doesn't. The new one has all of this combined with 1 miss, ff down, vaulting speed is so bad, no blood pools, bigger stun and survivors have a lot of reaction time because the speed is slower, so you get that bigger distance compared to the old one much later.

    You would prefer playing clown to have fun, because clown at least is an m1 killer with a power that isn't bland. You can be creative with it. Feral frenzy's case is a very different case in terms of flexibility...

    It doesn't seem better to me.

    EDIT: After seeing the last video (haven't seen the first one tho) tru3 says that he was doing well not because of Legion, but because he played so much dbd that he has chase potential by m1ing them down, as a veteran player should be capable of doing.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    I disagree that mains of a killer have the overall goal in mind of the game, as I prefer balance over anything regarding killer or survivor, as mains of a killer only play that specific thing and ignore anything from any other side, only to make their side better. They may know a lot about their killer, but they only take their experiences with that killer, rather than the overall game, in my experience. TrueTalent plays all killers pretty much equally, and nowhere did he say Legion was OP, and neither did I. I don't know why you guys keep assuming that I'm saying anything about Legion being strong or weak.

    For example, when Pig lost the ability for traps to kill survivors if they had one on their head and it wasn't activated, a few Pig mains were saying that she didn't need that "nerf", but honestly it was more of a clarity issue, and it just would not be fair because of EGC. If you were playing as a survivor during the EGC with a trap on your head(I've had it happen to me), there's not enough time for you to both get the trap off your head and get out the gates if you have the EGC timer running, unless you get extremely lucky. Even if you managed to get it off the first time, if the closest box was too far away, you might forget where the exit gates were. The devs knew what they were doing in that case, because you can STILL have those two timers going if the Pig times it right, and it's brutal and basically a death sentence, but there were Pig mains who were up in arms about this.

    Not really. If we were only to compare them by their movement while in FF, new Legion moves 50 meters in FF without hitting a survivor. Old Legion moves 31. New Legion is faster in every way, unless we count them by only 6 seconds, but that's not fair to new Legion because new Legion's FF lasts longer, and no one's gonna only run for 6 seconds in most cases. New Legion is faster only slightly however if both are using their FF EVERY TIME it's up, but again, no one is going to use their power off cooldown every time. There will be times they won't use it, or will be moving normally waiting to use their power when they see a survivor. This makes new Legion much faster, because of the base speed increase. However I did say that short bursts old Legion was faster, but for all intents and purposes, and in almost every instance, new Legion is faster. The only difference is it feels slower because the gaps between movement speeds are closer, and the top speed is reduced slightly. In short, the only way Legion is slower is if we give old Legion every advantage he has over new Legion without using anything new Legion has over old Legion. In a fair comparison, new Legion is faster, even if it's only slightly. The best thing to say is that new and old Legion are almost the same speed, with new being slightly faster.

    As for all of your other issues, this is personal preference and not related at all to being an actual issue. Honestly if you think about it, it's better for him not to miss because if he misses then he has to commit to the survivor. Unless they WANT him to commit to them, then it's better to let him get the hit if he's closed the gap on them enough. I don't think missing and losing your power is a bad thing, because if you miss a swing, then you're already right up on them and 4 seconds is not that bad when right up on someone, this also means you can down them.

  • Nibla02Nibla02 Member Posts: 163

    And Nurse will still be broken after the add on nerfs. But i guess you are gonna pretend that she still is only good with add ons

  • DBDbuildsYTDBDbuildsYT Member Posts: 1,042

    Legion can win only when the killer's player skill out matches the survivors.

    But you win despite legion not thanks to legion.

    Legion is garbage, try them for ten games in a row at high ranks

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    Any killer can only win when the killer's player skill outmatches the survivors. That's kind of the point of a PVP game. Are you saying that a killer with worse skill than survivors should win?

    As for winning "despite Legion", that last game of True's had him using perks that literally countered each other. So I guess True is the best Legion player in existence if all other Legion mains are having trouble while using Ruin and other perks that most M1 killers need.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    He is not the best legion player, but instead a guy that really understands the game and its mechanics/tactics as killer. As HE said, it was not because of Legion, it was because of the 115% movement speed that is common to 80% of the roaster. Which means that Legion by himself doesn't mean anything.

    The fact that he can hit survivors with m1 and the mindgames in chases is what made him win. He basically said that his power was worthless, but with other words.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    I watched all three of those videos and he used his power several times to find the other survivors, and in the first video I posted, he even said that was useful. He also didn't say it was the 115% movement speed in any of those videos that I saw either. Every time I see him play Legion, I hear him say "Tell me where your friends are", constantly, meaning he is using his power for it's effects. Can you really tell me that if he was just a 115% killer without Killer Instinct True would have won that match?

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited September 2019

    You still need to be very good at mindgames to be successful with "all" that information.

    Unlike other killers that have a UNIQUE game style like spirit, nurse, hillbilly, hag, freddy and some others.

    Legion's got taken. The power and the identity.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    I'm pretty sure most other killers require mind games. From what I always hear Spirit is always about mind games. You're comparing Legion to the absolute best killers, while saying Legion is the absolute worst. You're also moving the goal post quite a bit.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 765

    For some reason they are the best. I'm not moving the discussion to anywhere. Legion has problems and that's what I'm mentioning here.

    If I mentioned all the better killers, it's because you can see a pattern here. I also said some others like pig(for example), that has a dash to help in chases, traps to stall the game and being EXTREMELY LETHAL, impossible skillchecks doctor is also unique.

    But then you have killers that simply walk like clown, wraith (some builds are exception), etc. Even these can use their power to either be lethal, or/and to mess with survivors heads like doctor.

    Legion has no unique playstyle like he had before (without the exploits) and now he has nothing. All he does is walk and m1 someone. Now, don't compare it to spirit, they have nothing similar to each other. And because she has a unique playstyle, she can actually be top tier and be real fun to play.

    I mean, you take too many risks to get a little bit of stall potential that can't snowball because it has so many restrictions.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    There are no unique builds for Legion? Hm, I guess there isn't a map-wide terror radius addon for Legion after all. I could have sworn there was. You could probably also do Smiley Face Pin + Knockout + Third Seal so they don't know why they can't see their friends on the ground, thinking it's Smiley Face Pin, or Third Seal, then come to find out it's Knock Out(Otz did a similar build with GhostFace with his Outdoor Security Camera to slug everyone, but Legion has sight of survivors built into his power, so it could work similarly, except he doesn't have one hit downs, so it might take a bit longer. As for your risks and stall potential, it's not the stall potential that's Legion's most important power imo. The stall potential is just a bonus for making Legion's power unable to actually down people due to if he could, he'd be too powerful due to how easily he could catch up to survivors. the information is the important part.

    Also honestly I think Legion Pin would be pretty good honestly. You can track survivors easily, and they can't heal for 60 seconds, should be a pretty easy down.

  • DBDbuildsYTDBDbuildsYT Member Posts: 1,042


    You don't play legion, you clearly have zero understanding on the topic

    try and see how they actually work, and express an informed opinion not theories

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    Prove anything I said wrong. True used Legion's power SEVERAL times during each match. He didn't win DESPITE Legion, he won WITH Legion. There was no theory in anything I said in what you just quoted me. Killers are supposed to be more skilled to win. You can't use me not playing Legion as an excuse for expecting Legion to win against survivors more skilled than them.

  • NullSp3cNullSp3c Member Posts: 765
    edited September 2019

    I didn't say that he didn't have any unique builds, don't put words in my mouth.

    I talked about his game style. Yes, the frenzy can have different sinergies with perks/add-ons but after that you can't down them without simply running and m1. That's how it is and there is no denying it.

    Yes, you can make his power lethal with the correct counterplay, so he can snowball and be outplayed, its a display of skill basically. There are ways to change his power so he can be good and fun to play as/against. See some of the ideas in the forum.

    He would be op if he continued to be a 4.6m/s killer and if his power was more dynamic. But that is something that you only realise through experience. Seeing someone doing a build on youtube and actually get a really good game, doesn't mean that build/character is actually good. I also had tons of games that I completely dominate the survivors but it is like 10% of the time if that much. I can put one of those on youtube and call Legion op or really good.

    His power isn't 100% useless ofc, but not that useful in reality. And even less fun to use. No, this isn't subjective. Because no one would like to use a power that has a lot of downsides, no room for error and that takes ages to come back. After that, m1 them to death.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,487
    edited September 2019

    1- The most killers in dbd have a reason to looking only on themselfs, because even for no reason, they are getting nerfed or never buffed.

    Imo, the goal should be to put every killer on Spirit level, after everything I have read about her (I don't own her, so I can only build my opinion on what I have read about her).

    The Legion nerf was a prime example for this. If we talk about the old Legion, we talk about a killer who had one of the worst kill rates in the whole game and that is not my opinion -> If you like you can search the official statistics to that (I bet they are still somewhere online, maybe even in this forums).

    Shortly before the Legion patch, bhvr had post this statistic.

    If you think now about that and use your common sense, you would think, that they would have try to buff the Legion, so that she gets similar kill rates as the most other killers -> wrong. We got a patch with a ton of nerfs in exchange of 1 (in letters ->one<-) buff (the faster base movement speed).

    It is very, veeery rar that a killer just get buffed, even in the situation we are in (aka. a situation where the most killers are not on Spirit level).

    Also, you get sometimes the feeling, that bhvr handles killers and survivors differently.

    The Legion is again here a prime example: While some Legions have got their deserved ban for exploiting... Where exactly were the survivor bans for the 2 survivor perk exploits that have follow on the Legion patch?

    I have nothing read from a banwave towards them. Have you?

    So... Don't judge us killers too hard if we look at first at ourselfs. That's mostly because a desert need first to freeze before we see anything good (symbolically speeching).

    2- The old Legion was faster. I had a pretty known situation to me at the patch day that I could very good compare to each other. I had follow a survivor to a nearby loob spot and now the following had happen (I will write it two times, so that also you can see the difference and, ah yes... Both times the Legion had no addons.):

    Pre patch Legion situation: I had vault over the pallet with frenzy. Then the survivor would have had a few seconds to either start the little pallet game, or he would have been hitten by me.

    My situation with the new Legion on the patch day: I had vault over the pallet with frenzy. Then the survivor had unreachable run away for me while he was just running straight forward.

    No pallet game, no further attempt to loop one more time, no nothing.

    I had just stay there with a open mouth after that.

    Still I had mori him later, since that day was for me my vengeance day, but still... That makes it not better.

    This survivor would have never survive against the old Legion in this situation, if he had not do the pallet mini game. That can you believe me.

    And that are situations, you can't nowhere read, but that are also situations where Legion mains see that bhvr had at least tryd to trick us and as said before - it hasen't work.

  • Atrushan88Atrushan88 Member Posts: 2,065
    edited September 2019

    The reason the survivor would not have survived old Legion is because one, you're comparing a very short distance, and probably only counting the time you were in Frenzy(in addition, you could actually use your power to kill someone, which likely wasn't intended in the first place). Obviously, in Frenzy, old Legion is faster for the first 6 seconds. New Legion however closes far more distance while in frenzy, because it lasts longer.

    As for survivors and killers being treated differently, this is honestly just your imagination. Survivor nerfs happen just as often as killer nerfs. You just don't realize it because you probably don't play survivor at all, or very little, and probably don't even look at the patch notes for survivor nerfs. Just in the past few patches survivors have lost: fast vaults(well not totally lost but a lot more difficult and it basically destroyed a mind game survivors could use against the killer), darker clothing, had loops that are completely pointless made on Springwood, can't see past walls on Coldwind, Mettle of Man nerf, End Game Collapse, and probably a lot more than I can think of. As for killer nerfs we've seen Pig "nerfs"(more of an adjustment that was necessary for a huge survivor nerf), A Ghostface buff and the some nerfs to the buff specifically(nothing made him weaker), and...I think that's it? I'm not saying the devs give preferential treatment to killers either, I'm just showing you that you're wrong about them treating survivors better.

    As for the Legion bug, that as far as I'm aware was a thing for a while, and basically made the game unplayable. The Sprint Burst exploit was nowhere near that, and I could still catch people using it, albeit with a slightly longer time frame.

  • TalmeerTalmeer Member Posts: 1,487
    edited September 2019

    Sry, I see the topic exploits just black and white. Either you are ok with it, or you don't. I am not.

    I know about those survivor nerfs, even I have just read them and not see them in the game, because I don't play the game anymore since the Legion patchday. That changes nothing on the situation that the most killers are still not on Spirit's level.

    If the devs are ok with the Legion, they should play the killer - best day in and day out - until they realize their mistake. I for my part don't waste my time on a killer that got gutted so far, just so that some survivors are happy now (while others miss the challenge).

    Of course, I have only count in the time in frenzy. Frenzy is ment to be a speed boost for the Legion. Otherwise you can directly stop using the abilitie (with the feeled 3 hour stun after frenzy, it would anyways the best advice) and you are ok with it, that they are so slow while they using it? o_O

    Just a reminder... The Legion are young adults, not a gang of grandpas/mas.

    Either the frenzy speed is at a minimum so fast as from the pre patch Legion, or even faster, or it doesn't matter at all and it is for sure not a buff.

    For what are the devs afraid? That the Legion hangs to often in a stun at the end of frenzy? Or that we hit survivors to often with a dw abilitie that is totally useless now compared to the old one?

    Imo, frenzy could be buffed without fearing anything. Balancing would first begin after they would do that as a necessary first step. And I know, then the balancing problems would begin, but I know also that countless Legion mains and also sometimes survivors have warn bhvr for exactly this situation and that's why my compassion is limited, what this topic matters.

  • Nemmy_WemmyNemmy_Wemmy Member Posts: 576

    Hey bud! So after some time has passed has your legion build changed any? Like do you like the new dying light? Im just curious and doing a follow up to our previous convo here.

  • Chaotic_RiddleChaotic_Riddle Member Posts: 1,949

    I'm still using the same build. Dying light is pretty alright, even better than Thanat in some situations, but the drawback of losing everything by killing your obsession has made the perk kind of useless during midgame. Besides that, not much has changed! :D

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