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Sabo changes. I gave them some thought and... NO.

I didn't want to rush to conclusions, so I took some time, played a little more as killer and surv, and even if it's a little situational, it's too strong. Here are some thoughts.

-It's the same as the old sabo, but now you don't need to pre-sabo at 99%, so it's a buff. I know that you can sabo less hooks, but still you can spend time on gens while waiting for the sabo play.

-Killer's time is gold, even more now that old ruin is "gone", so missing 1 hook can make you lose the match, mainly at the beginning of the match, so one sabo can unbalance the match and there's not much you can do about it.

-It doesn't require skill or timing, like a FL save or a pallet save, you just have to guess correctly that the killer is going to the hook you're waiting and that's it, a free escape.

-With flashlights you could look at a wall, but if you're half way to a hook and you realize they're gonna sabo, that's it, you have no time to go to another hook, you lost all the time it took you to hit the survivor twice and you have to start all over with a new survivor. Meanwhile, the other survivors keep working on gens. It kills momentum like the old DS.

-You can't even try to down the survivor saboing, since it's faster than the hit cooldown, so if you interrupt a healthy survivor saboing, you hit him, and he has time to break the hook and even escape your second hit, and by that time, the survivor you're carrying goes free. Almost 0 risk for survivors and easier to pull than a flashlight or pallet save.

-Hangman's trick's changes apparently are not going live, so it's not balanced because there is a perk that can counter it. Also I shouldn't be forced to use use a perk slot just because sabo is now a thing.

-If the guy is wiggling at 80-90% when you see a guy saboing, that's it, he goes free, you can't even drop him to the ground (unable to pick him back up) that way MAYBE it would be more fair, since you'll chase the sabo survivor while other survivors have to come and pick the other guy up. But no, it's all win-win for survivors.

-Killers have no way to take advantage of a mistake. For instance, a long time ago I used to run lightborn, and on purpose I picked up survivors in the open, so a flashlight guy would appear and I'd give him a free hit, sometimes even a down. Hell, even now some survivor still try to flashlight me while I'm carrying a survivor and I get free hits and downs (red ranks are a mess right now). It's a little risky for survivors. But with a sabo, at most you can give a free hit to the sabo guy and they both escape. You can't capitalize on it in anyway since they can't "miss" a sabo play.

Well, there are my two cents about the issue, hope it helps. Feel free to comment more in favor or against the sabo changes.

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Comments

  • Dr_LoomisDr_Loomis Member Posts: 3,703

    This sounds great.

    Honestly, why do they keep making these silly ruddy changes. 'eavens above.

  • CoderCoder Member Posts: 690

    If they fix that, it COULD be fair, since it will give the killer a chance to take advantage of a misplay (let's say the survivor was late to sabo). But as it is now, the survivor takes the hit, sabo and leaves. 0 risk.

  • meatisadelicacymeatisadelicacy Member Posts: 1,865

    Honestly, me sabotaging hooks to 99% slowed down gens more than anything else. It was kinda something I just did for BP when I'd happen to loot a toolbox from a chest, and when I felt like the killer was being rushed. I've probably had 3-4 hook saves from 99ing a hook in more than 1,000 hours of playing this game. Never did an obnoxious sabo game with friends. Not entirely sure why this change seemed necessary.

  • jinxykinzjinxykinz Member Posts: 69

    They could make new sabo fair by increasing the time it takes to sabo to four seconds and making it so when the survivor struggles off within 3-4 meters of the sabo’ed hook, they are slugged and/or can’t be healed for a limited amount of time. This would make sabo a viable strategy in some situations without being a meme and making every match as killer even more frustrating.

  • snozersnozer Member Posts: 776

    But why would they do this?

    The aim of these updates is to make toxic swf happy, the more happy swf is the more money they spend.

    Killers can just go die in a corner.

  • kurgan8282kurgan8282 Member Posts: 263

    yeah....just when I thought they were balancing the game, they came up with this...I can't even imagine who thought it was a good idea...even less I can imagine why they decided to put it into action.

    Definitely losing hope about this game.

  • RngGeneratorRngGenerator Member Posts: 25

    The good thing about 99% a hook was that you had to spend a bunch of time away from gens which made them pop a lot slower. Why they didn't see this coming when they made sabo 2.5 seconds is beyond me but let's face it, the devs didn't even play test this because why would they? Why would making sure a change to a perk is balanced and fair for both sides when you can just cater to low rank survivor mains and hope they give you money? Jesus this game is scuffed right now.

  • fleshboxfleshbox Member Posts: 494

    Maybe they are attempting to see how much time is needed. I hope they dont go through with this 2.5 second without toolboxes sabo. 2.5 sec is bad enough. A 1 second sabo and we will have sabo crews running wild. I had a few games the day cowboy went live and lost people due to sabo. Practicing i guess.

  • CoderCoder Member Posts: 690


    I don't think the timer is the only issue, it's a 0 risk play for a survivor. If you miss a flashlight save, you might even get a hit, or at least you show yourself to the killer and when the survivor is hooked he might chase you, applying more pressure (since you can't rescue and someone else has to come). There has to be some risk for the survivor and should need some skill other than waiting on a hook and holding M2. Something else is missing. A squad with 4 toolboxes on comms could be even more annoying (and strong) than 4 flashlights.

  • CornHubCornHub Member Posts: 1,864

    I think it was to give survivors another objective, as while you can do totems and search chests it isn't necessary. Technically if your a good enough survivor even healing isnt necessary.

  • LetsPlayTogetherLetsPlayTogether Member Posts: 2,117

    There are perks to counter sabo. How about killers adapt to it like survivors adapted all the time to changes?

  • CoderCoder Member Posts: 690

    That's not giving a new objective, that's buffing an objective they already had.

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,266

    It's a catch 22 scenario.

    You want survivors to have something beneficial to do other than gens. Sabo was this in the past but it was annoying as hooks didn't respawn. Once the nerf came the phrase gen rush came about.

    The 99% one was too slow and why no one ran it. I think the closer a killer gets to the hook or how far the struggle phase along is maybe the time to sabo increases and/or the struggle bar also gets increased by 25%.

    This promotes breaking the hook earlier rather than infront of the killers face and allows more time to get to another hook.

  • CoderCoder Member Posts: 690

    AS I said, there are so many things to "counter" yet there are only 4 perk slots. Also perks should be something you can use, not something to counter a poorly designed part of the game. It's like saying "well, if you care so much about strong windows, just run bamboozle". NO, that's not the answer, strong windows should be reworked, you don't need to use a perk slot to mitigate the damage.

    Also, if it's badly designed, it should be reworked, or are you still asking people to adapt to the old MoM? That's the answer to everything? just take everything the devs do, no matter how unbalanced you think it is, don't ask for a rework and "adapt"?

  • CoderCoder Member Posts: 690

    I think my answer was deleted.

    As I said in the first message, you shouldn't be forced to run perks to counter it, there are so many things to be countered, yet there are only 4 perk slots. It's like saying "if you don't like strong windows, just run bamboozle", NO, strong windows should be reworked, you shouldn't be forced to use a perk slot to mitigate an error in the design.

    Also, if it's not balanced, it should be reworked, or are you still asking people to "adapt" to the old MoM? or to adapt to the old DS? should we just take everything the devs do in their first try, don't give feedback or complain and just "adapt"?

  • CoderCoder Member Posts: 690

    That's not a catch-22. But also, gens are not beneficial, it's a stablished objective they're forced to do, it's not even fun, they just have to do it. If you need survivors to do something else, force them to, like asking them to go across the map to get a wrench before sitting on a gen. That would be adding an objective. The new sabo is not an objective, or at least it's as much of an objective as a flashlight save.

    Totems are beneficial, they give bloodpoints and help prevent NOED, yet survivors don't care on 98% of the matches to make sure all 5 totems are broken.

    I agree the old sabo was more like a meme, a lot of work for little or no reward, and need to be reworked, but this is too strong, it doesn't require skill like a FL save, it is not risky at all, it can't be countered (like you can look at the wall against flashlights) because by the time you see a survivor saboing it's probably too late to go to another hook. It's 100% benefit to the survivor, a huge reward for a little effort.

  • LetsPlayTogetherLetsPlayTogether Member Posts: 2,117

    But survivors should always adapt, right? Double standards at its best. Sabo is balanced. It has enough counterplay.

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,266

    Of course gens are beneficial. The main objective is always the most beneficial to do for each side for the overall outcome.

    Totems while ok are not beneficial unless under a hex, running a perk or you care about NOED which csn be donr at end game. Yes they grant bloodpoints but aren't as beneficial as doing gens for escape points. The problem with totems now is the punishments for cleansing them they are adding making them less attractive.

    They clearly don't want to force another objective such as the wrench idea. This is more than likely due to it only being a small amount of games which go too fast in comparison to the overall games played. Like the last time even with Ruin gen rush was apparently in every game but then the stats showed the average game time over all ranks was around 12+ mins.

    I think the important thing to remember is DBD is not a competative game by nature hence all the overly strong items, offering etc. It's a casual game which some would like to be competative and I think that is where most of the issues stem from.

    Take the new sabo while a bit too strong imo its something for players to play around with which helps prolong games.

  • RaccoonRaccoon Member Posts: 5,893

    Given the lack of Dev feedback/input on all these Sabo topics, I'm pretty certain that, like Ruin, the PTB version will be rolling out onto live.

    I'm actually interested to see the state of the game/forums when this happens @[email protected]

  • TAGTAG Member Posts: 12,031

    I haven't seen them give any input on the PTB, to be honest. Only two threads in the PTB feedback section have a dev response, and one is just answering why PTB queues are so long.

  • The_DaydreamerThe_Daydreamer Member Posts: 544

    Im pretty sure they gonna change the time to sabo. I think the idea is cool and good, but it is way too short. I really love seeing saboteur more, but this needs to get changed to atleast 5 seconds. But hey, it is the PTB.

  • Whiskers93Whiskers93 Member Posts: 95

    When you even have a mod complaining it's too short you know the devs have ######### up

  • Its_Vigo_HereIts_Vigo_Here Member Posts: 118

    I disagree with your statement "This is a Casual game" While yes its not ESports ready, nor will really any asemetrical game EVER be that way I think striving for the most competitive atmosphere is important! Seriously, If this was fully a casual game then why do killers hook people instead of killing them, why are there only a 4v1. Why not go the route of atmosphere and horror like say the friday the 13th game instead the very... gamey feeling we get with this? Insta healing items that only take a few seconds, running around horrific monsters in circles around a small fence, an actual rank and ladder system that gives you satisfaction for doing well. These are not things you find in a casual game, there would be no emblems because if it was casual then why bother?

    The answer is they do strive to be competitive, this by nature is a competitive game its just like most games unbalanced. Not only because a perfectly balanced game is terrible or just chest... but because dead by daylight lends itself to a competitive atmosphere. This is why survivors tea bag and trash talk in the end game, why so many people say "Git Gud" and why the game is designed in the way that it is. So no its not a casual game, and until we get the ladder system and end game chat removed, I will always disagree with that sentiment. HELL THIS GAME IS GETTING A SECOND LADDER SYSTEM, thats how competitive it is actually getting!

  • twistedmonkeytwistedmonkey Member, Trusted Posts: 4,266
    edited February 2020

    It's a casual game as its not designed to be overly competative. Yes it's a multiplayer game which some will always view as competative but it has aspects which have no place in a competative game such as mori's, keys, iri addons, items which can sway the game. Perks which can change the game for one side made uneven with the huge grind. The playing field isn't level with these scenarios as it is in most any competative games.

    The hooking you mentioned lends to that as if it was truly competative killing and doing gens/escaping would be the most rewarded aspect but instead the game promotes screwing around and forces players to interact and play in a way considered fair.

    The fact you can die and rank up, kill one and rank up with some killers and not others but escaping too quickly or killing too quickly again says that it is not competative. DBD is a grind game.

    The rank system isn't actually a rank system but a tool which was always used for match making and a monthly goal. This is why the reset happened. A true competative game would never have put new comers versus players with over 3k hours.

    The new ladder system isn't a ladder system but again just a matchmaking tool. They are also removing all aspects of this being shown along with the old rank which will in essense just be a personal goal each month.

    If you ever listen to the devs on any stream they never mention the word competative. They always talk about the game being fun and engaging.

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