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Marth experiment is valid or not?

24

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  • finitethrillsfinitethrills Member Posts: 619

    That's probably why they did it with comms and without. Killers did worse vs perked with no comms. On occasions where they played with comms and perks, like during nightly warm-ups, killer were absolutely thrashed. Either one is strong on its own, both together are incredibly strong. The whole point was based on the strength of Survivors who play together in an organized fashion and how far beyond groups of solos that placed them in terms of power. So not sure what you're trying to argue... That somehow using swf to show that swf are vastly superior to solo when they bother to use the advantages swf gives is not the proper way to demonstrate exactly that?

    Either way, arguing with me on here isn't going to advance your dream of facing down THE Marth in a fight to the death, and there's really many better players you could go up against to prove your studliness.

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020

    Marth relies on his team thats a fact.

    He s not doing any favour to community he s not showing the game balance he s just a competitive dbd player. The only thing he proved that organised team on comms will destroy any random casual killer.

    If you really want to see the real skilled killer vs skilled survivors on comms you can find it somewhere on the internet or just ask any tournament players about that. Its not how the Marth describes it really(that killers stand no chance against good survivors).

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020

    You can watch this 500$ tournament review . Russian team took first place and you can clearly see how skilled killers can dominate over teams with comms. Marth was just up against random casual killers that were not even expecting a sweaty match. There were also nurses that lost with ebony mories 😂

    A few other games from tournaments:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rYKnvm0vrg

    Post edited by Reborn2020 on
  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138

    A loser that lost to russian team and dont compete in tournaments anymore because of that

  • Mister_HoldoutMister_Holdout Member Posts: 2,779

    Yes, for one simple reason.

    If the survivors stay spread out and do gens the killer is toast (in most cases).

  • theArashitheArashi Member Posts: 994

    Looking at games I've played lately from [BAD WORD] side of the stick and as survivor it is worse then it used to be.

    Sure, many survivors are playing like lego legless legolasses but many actually can play the game and hold m1 aaand game ends in 3 minutes. Bucket of fun.

    I did have few games where killers just gave up as almost at the same time as they hooked their first survivor 4 gens were done.


    Sorry but argument: Not everyone plays like that isn't really valid in here.

    This was actually my experience playing Deathslinger for first few days. Fast queues as killer, game done in 4 minutes as survivors love to test their m1'ing. Not a very fun way to play imo but with these lazy devs I'm way beyond hoping for changes to come ever.

  • HellDescentHellDescent Member Posts: 4,195

    Pretty valid to me. He played plenty of games and recorded them all for everyone to see

  • OhnoesOhnoes Member Posts: 411

    A live environment that doesn't have skill based matchmaking or ranking.

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020

    Those were random killers dude. Watch tournament games with both sides being equal and you can see how killers were doing well even when exhaustion perks were op and old ds was the thing.

    Like i already said: In Marth expreriments they were facing random killers and there Nurses that lost with ebony mori.

  • DreamnomadDreamnomad Member Posts: 2,837

    No. It's not valid. It's not even the same game as when he conducted his experiment. I would love for a group of survivors to step forward and give it a go though. I'd be interested in the results. But this is the kind of thing that needs to be done on a regular basis for it to have any merit. Think about all the things that have changed. The very metric for whether a killer pips has changed!

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138

    Marth experiment was against potato killers.Watch some of the tournament games i posted above on this very page.

    Also watch this :

    Old Freddy that was cosidered "the weakest killer" by community gets easy 4 kills in hands of skillful killer.

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020

    What are you saying? I dont get it. Live enviroment should be the case when you balance things around? Not high level play from both sides?

    Tournament most of the times has rules that prevents both sides from using cheese playstyle.

    And i like how you ignoring most of things i said.

    A single example?No. I gave you plenty. And you can watch even more.

    Watch this :

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hPm6XaOVxKs

    "The weakest killer" with 3 perks gets 4 kills when 3 survivors are on several gens. Ironically its Spudbar from Depip Squad. Also it was when exhaustion perks were regenerating while in run.

  • SunaIIanuSunaIIanu Member Posts: 424

    I personally think it's a little weird, that people are still using it as an argument 2 years later, yes the results might be similar, especially after this unnecessary ruin nerf but still, it's been 2 years and a lot of changes for both sides.

    Im general I'm skeptical what those experiments prove, because I don't think that someone argued that SWF is strong (and even without comms, they know how they play with each other so it's not really comparable to solo), but most SWF won't do as good as marth did, despite the advantages.

    Scott had a 32 win streak with speed limiter leatherface and 50 games win streak with Oni, fungoose had a more than 100 4ks win streak with plague. What conclusion should we draw from that? Oni op or Plague op? Or just that Scott and Fungoose are a lot better than the average players?

    I just think, that data from from players that are pretty good can't be used to balance for the average player. If the Devs want to do that they would probably need to balance differently for higher ranks, but that is not possible unless dbd gets a good ranking system and rank rewards.

  • RaptorrotasRaptorrotas Member Posts: 2,180

    Lol the marth hate.

    Someone wanting to disprove his experiment by recreating it will not be able to do so by playing SWF.

    "Hey look, i lost a lot, totally not Intentionally, I swear. Btw nerf killers, too op"

    Oh no, he was SWF'ing with people he knows and some general guidelines? MOST SURVIVORS PLAY SWF and those guidelines are common sense lol.

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020

    Okay. I guess you are right to some extent . Still "depip squad vs random killers" is not high level play. Watch tournament games above and do conclusions from there. Thats the best thing to balance game from as both sides are high level play.

  • SoulSeverSoulSever Member Posts: 40

    The Tournaments I have seen have had artificial rules imposed on them in order to make the game even remotely balanced and even then, all you see in tournaments is Nurse, Hillbilly ,Spirit and perhaps another killer once every blue moon that is usually steam rolled a few minutes later. What does that tell you about the state of the game?

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020

    I dbe very pleased if you would provide those games. As far as i know every tournament allows survivors to use comms which also gives them huge advantage but no matter that people manage to get kills even as low tier killers.

    Here are few games i posted :


  • SoulSeverSoulSever Member Posts: 40

    Unfortunately the games I had in mind were the SpaceEsports tournaments on twitch from a few months ago, the VODs have since expired.

    As to your examples, I cannot go through all of them but from what I can gather most of them are resumed in survivors failing to rush generators.

    In the second video during the first game with Hillbilly you can see Claudette trying to save the Dwight being camped which resulted in a grab, throwing the game then and there.

    The other games were similar, the first video you provided with Hag, the second match has the survivors 3 gen themselves with a hooked person at the centre of the 3 gen, while the first has a Nea do nothing and just run after the Hag for roughly 2 minutes, an entire generator could have been done in that time and another would be well on its way.

    The first game with Huntress, the first person used the speed burst to run into an open area without pallets, then once unhooked proceeded to run past a pallet into an LT wall, this resulted in an relatively early kill and all went downhill from there, despite that they still managed to do 4 generators by the time the killer had their second hook.

    The second game with Clown from the last video, the Jake decided to sit in a corner and then they wasted the speed burst from being hit by vaulting a window which caused them to go down when someone else was already on hook, then the Nea decided to self care while being affect by Coulrophobia instead of working on a generator, that match was just a mess.

    Those were very poor plays by the survivors which enabled the killer to gain more than 1 kill by the end of the match.

    I understand that your issue with the Depip Squad experiment is that they are very skilled players, which creates a constant, but the killers are random and many of them may not be all that good. However, the matches you provided have the opposite problem, the killer is playing as well as they can while survivors are sub-optimal. In the end, the Depip squad is the better standard by the principle of time, they proved how fast generators can progress compared to how quickly chases end under optimal survivor performance and that performance shows that aside from a few killers such as Nurse or outlier circumstances such as being caught in a dead zone, the ability of the survivor to maintain chase by looping, chaining pallets, utilising things such as god windows among other things such as items and second chance perks will take the killer's skill level out of the equation entirely.

    Just think about it, the difference between a good or bad Wraith will be negligible if all survivors they attempt to chase run to something such as the Ironworks god window upon being hit, the same is not true for survivors who will suffer a great penalty in performance if even one of their numbers cannot play well and goes down immediately. This same idea of the god loop applies to nearly all loops (to a lesser extent, example: a Jungle gym cannot really be dealt with if the survivor does not take risks and just holds corners, you just try to eat the pallet as early as possible and go on) The one kind of loops I can see being different are long-wall-short-walls and their like, in which the corners are too short to hold and it is pretty much a 50/50 with the red light mindgame.

    Conclusion: The inability for the killer to overcome basic game mechanics such as windows/pallets regardless of individual skill level creates a rift between generator repair time relative to chase time resulting in survivors completing their objectives much faster than the killer is capable of competing with. This is on the principle of time alone.

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020


    Killers also played bad and did some mistakes . The proof here is that even high level make mistakes which means its hard to not do mistakes when killer plays good. Also its Clown (the weakest killer)with three perks vs survivors with exhaustion perks recovering while on the run. Anyway you make good points as well but admit that: marth experiment against random killers is stupid ( nurses with ebony mori end games with 1 kill lol).

    Killers are harder to play than survivors because of first person perspective but that is irrelevant.

    "However, the matches you provided have the opposite problem, the killer is playing as well as they can while survivors are sub-optimal"

    what?why?

    Its easy to say what you did wrong when you watch the game afterwards .

    Post edited by Reborn2020 on
  • MarcusMarcus Member Posts: 2,047

    The only Nurses who won against them were the ones with add-ons for Omega Blink and 3+ blinks with an Ebony Mori on top of them ( which were agreed by almost everyone to be broken and in need of a nerf ).

    I didn't saw any base kit Nurse even challenging the Depip Squad, let alone winning.

  • SoulSeverSoulSever Member Posts: 40

    Everyone makes mistakes I understand that but those in particular were incredibly banal for survivors of the highest level which leads me to believe that they were either not trying their hardest or were not dedicated survivor players.

    The first Claudette on the Hillbilly match should have just left the teammate to die on hook, it is known that when a killer camps a survivor you should just rush gens, especially if it is an instadown killer such a Hillbilly who will one hit you off the hook which makes trading impossible.

    The three gen situation could have been avoided by simply having survivors scatter through the map although I have done the same before so I rest my case.

    The Nea running along with the Hag is just illogical, the Nea is not accomplishing anything, for those 2 minutes it might as well not have been in the match, if you are not being chased there is no reason not be on a generator and much less reason to be running after the killer.

    The Claudette on the Huntress game made the same mistake twice, which is passable I suppose but still.

    The Jake and Nea of the Clown game (Oh boy) Jake could have easily ran to a safer corner to hold or just ran away from the area entirely, they literally just sat still crouching at a doorway and then proceeded to waste the speed burst from the hit not only with a vault but with a vault into a drop, that pretty much nullified the entire burst and ensured that it would go down not long after. The Nea, same principle as the other Nea, wasting time, healing is often wasteful, especially with Self-Care which heals even slower, with Coulrophobia added upon it which makes it even slower. It is mostly accepted that Self Care is the best killer perk due to having survivors sit in a corner doing nothing for extended amounts of time and there we have the Nea doing that and more with the help of Coulrophobia. Nea should just have been on a generator. May I note how the Feng also had Self-Care?

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138

    its a tournament and you saying that they werent trying their best? Those 2 teams are both known around tournament player and they both really on high level play with thousand hours behind . You know what they were supposed to do because you watching the game you not participating in it and i like how you just being biased towards survivors. Like that first Hag that got 2 kills on survivor sided map could easily get third guy if he would play smarter . See i can say that too?

    And im not even saying that killers have upper hand in this game. All im saying that this Marths opinion is clearly wrong " We as killers are just lucky that survivors are boosted apes".

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020

    Your point is that omega blink nurse with ebony is balanced?

    Watch marth games as nurse on tournaments . He compete with tournament level players without any addons not even mentioning Mori and doing good.

    If you know Depip Squad tournament history you would see that their are not just "killer mains" they had only one loss on tournaments against top tier russian team against whom they lost and ditched tournaments play at all.

  • MarcusMarcus Member Posts: 2,047

    I literally said these things were agreed to be broken and were nerfed accordingly besides Mori. So you really need to read my comments more carefully.

    What I said it wasn't broken was old base kit Nurse, as I never saw one winning against them.

  • ShocktoberShocktober Member Posts: 678

    Why would people think tournaments are valid in a game with RNG map layouts? One team can get pallet galore and the other can get empty fields.

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138

    Its funny how you telling me to read carefully but you cant read this " RANDOM KILLERS"

  • Reborn2020Reborn2020 Member Posts: 1,138
    edited March 2020

    The only such map that comes to mind would be that big nurse map. As for other map its not that big of a deal in my opinion.

  • ShocktoberShocktober Member Posts: 678

    I see so many variations in almost every map. The only map with super static pallets seem to be the indoor ones.

    Take the Thompson house for example, or even a killer-sided map like wreckers yard. I have seen some absolutely disgusting set-ups one time, like multiple jungle gyms into the cow tree into shack, and basically worthless set-ups in others; like some empty windows and short wall pallets.

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