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was looping intended from the start



  • AcromioAcromio Member Posts: 1,586

    No, it wasn't. Consider this: when someone, during one of the fall 2016 dev streams, asked the devs what they thought about pallet-looping, they answered that they didn't even know what it was.

    What is commonly referred as "pallet-looping" is an exploit that takes advantage of the survivors' smaller collision to circle around debris, or, in general, tiles encompassing pallets, pretty much nullifying the killer's higher movement speed.

    Most games would classify pallet-looping as "hitbox abuse", and fix it accordingly.

    At one point killers started doing a similar thing, namely phisically blocking the space for unhooking. Survivors cried, and that was taken away, whereas pallet-looping is still in the game to date, in spite of being the exact, same thing: hitbox abuse.

    A big part in the game-breaking pallet-looping we have today is played by the completely unnecessary pallet omegabuffs introduced in the dreaded patch 1.1.1. : both the time-window and the range for a pallet-stun were made absurdly generous -to the point where killers can be stunned through walls and around corners.

  • brokedownpalacebrokedownpalace Member Posts: 5,662

    Or the old face camping needed a better and more explicit name, like unhook blocking. People still call it face camping if the killer is in the survivor's face or really close because it's a fitting name. It makes it much harder to save that survivor, especially with certain killers, add ons and perks. It's just an easy, quick way to distinguish between a killer who camps but stands back several feet or patrols the immediate area around the hook and a killer that gets in your face.

    I'm not really sure what calling multiple things face camping did to delay a fix. You're telling me the devs were unaware the prompt didn't show simply because some people used the word more liberally? I find that hard to believe.

    Also most words have quite a few definitions and they evolve over time.

    Also, also, that was like 3 years ago so who are you calling kids?? Lol

  • Valor188917Valor188917 Member Posts: 649

    If they fixed pallet looping the game would be way easier to balance but alas, they are afraid of survivors quitting over the change even tho mostly highrank survivors would be affected by this anyways (a brutally small minority) as most survivors either don't effectively loop pallets or don't loop them at all.

    I'd rather have the maps be cluttered with visionblockers, defensive measures etc than running around a pallet 2 times, it's the most baffling thing in this game and makes playing it a joke sometimes.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    "New" face camping already had a term: hard camping. There was a distinction. Sure, we could change the name "retroactively", but it's much easier to go with what we had than to completely change the vocabulary.

    It's like spamming M1 while on the hook: it means that the killer is camping, so you shouldn't save. Sure, maybe it sounds a little backwards, but we understood each other. However, with the influx of newbies who use it the wrong way, we now have what could be a very useful action that effectively means nothing, because you have no idea what the player means.

    Using "face camping" to mean hard camping delayed a fix because people were reporting "face camping" as a bug without further explanation (or with insults, in typical salty gamer fashion). What does face camping mean nowadays? That the killer is close to the hook, which isn't a bug by any stretch of the imagination. Are the devs supposed to read the player's minds and know who's using the term correctly and who isn't?

    It's an expression.

  • PoweasPoweas Member Posts: 5,873

    Looping wasn't considered, funnily enough lol.

  • PoweasPoweas Member Posts: 5,873

    Do you think it's better as it is now. or should the killers have had a smaller hitbox?

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    Looping hasn't changed, just the map design philosophy to work around it. Hitboxes are finnicky, you can't just give killers a small hitbox and be done with it, their models are enormous.

    What I would do is simply have killers reach their top speed at the same time that survivors do. Killers and survivors accelerate at the same rate, but because killers have a higher top speed, they take longer to reach it. This is why survivors can turn on a dime without losing much speed, whereas killers are noticeably slowed down. That should result in some interesting changes regarding loops.

  • BovinityBovinity Member Posts: 1,522

    Game developers are actually very rarely able to predict how all the mechanics they create will be used by players. Often times "bugs" or "exploits" end up being embraced as core elements of the gameplay loop down the road.

    e.g. Just about every element of modern fighting games started out as something unintended or unexpected. Cancelling, combos, etc.

  • BlueFangBlueFang Member Posts: 1,242
    edited June 3

    The game used to be a hide and seek simulator which is another reason why the game used to be so Dark and FOV was limited. When the gameplay loop changed to being about pallet looping quite a lot of the game changed and honestly

    For the better. What keeps me playing the game is the unique mindgaming, chasing/looping, map pressure, and other aspects in the game. You will not find this gameplay loop anywhere else especially not in another asymmetrical game. Every game that's come out to challenge DBD has failed and I believe that's because they miss what makes the game so fun in the first place. Its not about hiding, its not about getting the survivor team annihilated its about the actual gameplay loop itself. Everything else is meaningless its that core gameplay that makes this game and makes winning those chases, escaping/defeating the survivors worth it and be satisfying

  • PoweasPoweas Member Posts: 5,873

    If that were to happen, it'd definitely need a whole looping and pallet layout overhaul, it'd be nice if the devs were to do it in a whole massive patch, it would definitely change the game and the meta, since killers aren't slowed down, they'd be VERY strong in chase, so survivors would have to resort to stealth more.

  • weirdkid5weirdkid5 Member Posts: 2,001

    No, any long time player will tell you that looping was a strategy that was developed over many hours of playing the game. This is why it has taken them so long to adjust it in terms of gameplay, it was never an intended thing to begin with.

    That said, they have tried to incorporate it into the gameplay and balancing now because that's just how people play the game. It is what it is at this point. You can still play without looping, but it is far harder to do so now because it is finally being addressed as a main gameplay mechanic.

  • YaiPaYaiPa Member Posts: 1,903

    lmao, be mad about it, but it's a matter of fact, looping was never thought.

  • brokedownpalacebrokedownpalace Member Posts: 5,662

    "Using "face camping" to mean hard camping delayed a fix because people were reporting "face camping" as a bug without further explanation (or with insults, in typical salty gamer fashion). What does face camping mean nowadays? That the killer is close to the hook, which isn't a bug by any stretch of the imagination. Are the devs supposed to read the player's minds and know who's using the term correctly and who isn't?"

    I still don't follow. The devs knew that the interaction was blocked because the killer's hitbox was in the way and you could only unhook from the front. How many reports did they need? I don't even think they needed any reports lol. It was very easily reproducible by their QA team. Whether they got 1 report or 10,000 is irrelevant. It's not like a bug that only happens on some maps with certain fog conditions and certain killers with certain add ons lol.

    Do you even have any reason to believe the exploit fix was delayed due to false reports? Like did a dev or CM say that?

  • stikyardstikyard Member Posts: 64

    Scratch marks are too ridiculously visible and last too long, they should only give the killer an idea which direction you've gone, not lead them right to you. It doesn't even make sense. I don't leave bright red trails while running through the woods and walled maps, like wtf, why would anyone "scratch" the walls while trying to escape from a killer?

    DBD has repeatedly removed stealth from the game, offering survivors on a silver platter for the Killer and we can't out run them so... LOOPING.

  • OrionOrion Member Posts: 17,014

    Bug report comes in, says the killer was face camping. Doesn't go into detail about what that means. Devs assume it means that the killer was close to the hook, report gets thrown out because that's not a bug.

    It's been a while, but if memory serves, there were replies that "face camping" wasn't a bug. All because people don't know what "face camping" means.

    If you want to argue sense, most of the characters don't have degrees in electrical engineering either, but they sure can repair generators with ease.

    DbD has supernatural elements. Don't try to make sense of it by comparing it to real life.

  • stikyardstikyard Member Posts: 64


    If you want to argue sense, most of the characters don't have degrees in electrical engineering either, but they sure can repair generators with ease.

    DbD has supernatural elements. Don't try to make sense of it by comparing it to real life.

    Typically, I agree and can even accept scratch marks to a degree but, the current use of them makes trying to break a chase really hard. If you line up that pallet stun or window vault and gain some distance, you deserve to lose the killer and not have a red hot trail on your ass.

    There are unsafe pallets that the Killer wont even bother to follow you through because the path is so short around, they just go around. So as survivor you literally have to stop and try to lure the killer into a loop and pallet drop.

  • Seiko300Seiko300 Member Posts: 1,387

    Why would I be mad? Chases are now the main focus in gameplay in Dead By Daylight as they should be.

    Who gives a sh*t about what was when it's not what is.

    The "hide and seek thriller" that may have been the original image of the game was lost as soon as infinites were discovered. Which was maybe 2 weeks after launch at minimum and 3 months maximum, very early on in a life cycle that has seen almost 4 years now and is on an upward trend to see many more years to come.

    P.S. That's not to say that stealth doesn't exist in Dead By Daylight, it still is a "hide and seek thriller" but like I said it is not the main focus of gameplay that the game is designed and balanced around. Again, as it should be.

  • PureHostilityPureHostility Member Posts: 425
    edited June 4

    (typing this on a mobile, sorry for any mistype or auto correct being wonky)

    Been here since day 1, tried to get into the beta too, but no luck (watched streams of it; beta was locked to lvl 6 and only Trapper was available, we didnt know about Billy nor Wraith back then).

    Game was built and "balanced" (rofl & lmao, it was a horrible mess) around hide and seek. Once found by a killer you were supposed to go down after short chase or somehow lose them.

    Most people played by running aimlessly for few days, dying in random parts of the map. Few days later, first meta formed, self caring at pallets (SC took 6 seconds to fully heal yourself back then). Meanwhile people were quickly healing back mid chase while camping pallets (no looping), a disgusting dark ages of dbd started to form, news of complete safe space around all maps but Shelter Woods were found. Infinites, areas at which survivors could run around and NEVER be able to be caught by the killer.

    There was no blood lust, no entity blocker for Windows, killer vaulting animation was much slower and survivors had sprint burst on a generic 20 second cooldown, window fast vaults no matter what angle you came at and if I remember correctly, window and pallet vacuums, basically built in dead hard year before it was a thing.

    For the next few months, dbd was played by Infinites. Many survivors completely refused to use them for good sport, often also body blocking survivors who did happen to abuse them, letting killer hook them. It lastws for a long time and it took a long, painful while for the devs to understand what Infinites are, Meanwhile Cote started becoming a meme of Bhvr, he said "It takes a lot of skill to pull off anything resembling an infinite"... Community was outraged due to the ignorance.

    Nonetheless, Nurse came out, Infinites were finally counterable by a single killer, besides somewhat by the Trapper.

    These were also the times when more and more people started running loops around pallet locations. Hell, actually most pallets back then were actually placed in pairs. You hear me right, there were tiles with 2 pallets next to each other. The basic jungle gym had 2 pallets and a window. (or 2 pallets and 2 Windows, cant remember now, it was years ago, both L Wall and long Wall had a window and both RNG pallet spots in current jungle gyms had active pallets).

    Devs started to balance said tiles and survivors had to adapt, thus more and more people started to actually not just run straight from pallet to another one but instead loop around. It was hated by a lot of killer players, myself included (I really dont mind it now and enjoy the chase loop we currently have).

    Proper looping started to be a thing around the Halloween DLC release.

    Many things has changed from these times, whole playstyle of dbd has changes drastically from the release, from being a slow paced hide and seek based game to the current action packed roundabout sim.

    Dbd currently is in a much, much better state than it ever was back in these disgusting times. If we had the release version of dbd and current player experience levels of an average 1k hour players, killer would NEVER be able to catch nor even hit anyone even if said survivor wouldnt use any perks available back then.

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