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It's time for mori's and keys to be addressed.

NebulaNebula Member Posts: 471

Both of these items are extremely outdated and take the fun away from the other side when used. There's nothing enjoyable about getting tunneled off hook and taken out of the game right off the bat, or when you're playing killer and all the sudden the game just ends because they had a key. I know that mori's are big selling points for their new killers but I would not mind at all if they just deleted those and keys from the game.

Comments

  • TotemsCleanserTotemsCleanser Member Posts: 617

    At least three gens need to be done for more than one survivor to be able to escape with a key, and that only if two survivors have already been sacrificed, otherwise more gens need to be done. And as a killer you can always focus the guy who has the key, or even better run Franklin's Demise because the other survivors will have it way more difficult to find the key on the floor.

    As for Mori, it is annoying to get tunneled and killed within the first two minutes of a game, yes. But in the end, both Mori and Keys are very rare items/offerings that you run out of at some point. Idk I understand where your frustration is coming from because I have faced it too but I don't feel it's the main issue the game has right now, I wouldn't even go to the length of calling it an issue because most matches there are no mori nor key.

  • ThisGuuy83ThisGuuy83 Member Posts: 1,303

    Ok, fine. I'll give you the address..

    666 demon lane. Brimstone, Hell. Zip is 66666. Hope that helps!

  • Falkner09Falkner09 Member Posts: 347

    I'd say they're both on a level playing field if we just remove the possibility of finding keys from a chest. An instant victory due to RNG is not reasonable, unless killers are also given a random chance to find moris around the arena.

  • TotemsCleanserTotemsCleanser Member Posts: 617

    The chance of finding a key in a chest is low af though. Like, unless you're running Plunderer's Instinct, but then again you occupied a perk slot solely to increase the chance of finding a key, and it's not even guaranteed. I feel a little RNG is fine tbh, if they got lucky enough to find a key then go for it. It's not the only RNG element in the game anyway.

  • Seiko300Seiko300 Member Posts: 1,860
    edited June 2020

    Those who say keys (and mori's but I'll be focusing on keys right now and you'll soon see why) are "fine" or "not a big deal" are very seriously understating the issues caused and created by them. Especially on the part of keys which are wildly unbalanced and cannot stay in their current state for the sake of balance.

    Now one might see my disproportionate focus on keys rather than moris and immediately think "This guy is biased!!" however I have some very real concerns here that I think not only validate my opinion, but also may get a few people to change their minds here.

    ITEMS VS. OFFERINGS

    Biggest issue here: Keys are items, and moris are offerings. Already from the get go there are huge problems with this, and the two mechanics which are so frequently compared actually aren't as comparable as you might think. On the surface, and to many people this difference might seem negligible but I assure you it is not:

    Mori's as offerings are single time use. Once they have been burned at the start of a match, they are gone, so it doesn't matter what happens in the actual trial itself nothing can change that fact. If you do too well and all the survivors begin to disconnect the match and rage quit, it's still gone, if survivors don't DC but they start killing themselves on the hook to get out of the match early it's still gone. If you stomp everyone in the match and hook them all a bunch of times until they start dying quickly in what becomes a short match, it's gone, if you get stomped so hard by an SWF team that won't allow you to get more than 2 hooks, and you never get the chance to use it it's gone. In all of these cases the mori has been completely wasted since you never really got a proper chance to use it. Mori's are one-time use and that is final, when it's gone, it's gone.

    Items on the other hand do not play by those rules. Oh it doesn't matter if a survivor DCs ruining your chance to actually use a mori but if a killer DCs while you're playing survivor you get to keep your item. If you escape as a survivor, you get to keep your item.

    Not to mention, items unlike offerings, also have add-ons, the key specifically has add-ons that actually prevent you from losing them! Even if you die or even if you use the key to actually escape you still. get. to. keep. the. key. This makes the weaved ring and the milky glass some of the most popular and most frequently used add-ons not just for the key, but out of every add-on survivors have access to.

    Even if the weaved ring and milky glass didn't exist, there are other add-ons the key has access to. Add-ons that turn a key from just a simple tool to escape to a swiss-army-knife-multi-purpose-object that can be used for a variety of different functions that could fit into a variety of loadouts and builds. You can use it to reveal fellow survivors auras at a range, you can use it to decrease your chance to be the obsession while also revealing the obsession's aura from any range, you can even use it to reveal the killer's aura. And of course add-ons exist that either boost the range of these effects, or add time to the use of the key.

    With the recent new item changes the problem is made even worse, now that items never break and never disappear you can actually use these add-ons and their effects fully depleting the key itself and still use the key to escape. Or escape with a depleted key through the exit gate to preserve it for the next match. It is nearly impossible to lose these things and you can survive on a total inventory of one or two keys and stretch those out for what seems like an infinite amount of time. Even IF you're using them, even IF you're dying with them, even IF you're getting use out of the multi-purpose add-ons the item has available to it and fully depleting the key.

    By comparison, if you had one or two moris in your inventory as a killer, guess what? You've got one or two matches to make those count. And if those two matches aren't perfect environments to use a mori in where people aren't killing themselves, disconnecting, or you're just flat out doing so good that you would actually feel bad if you actually whipped out the mori, guess what? You wasted the mori

    The problems don't stop there, the cherry on top of all these issues is that because keys are items, much like every other item you can find them in-game, during matches, in a chest. People will constantly compare Mori's and keys but when was the last time you saw a killer pull a Mori out of a box to win a match. Because that's exactly what survivors do, it's like a magic trick that makes all the pressure you worked for in a match disappear and not because they were actually skillful.

    GAMEPLAY IMPACT - MORI VS. KEY

    Now, in this section it's unavoidable to talk about why keys are unbalanced without referring to their "counterpart" as a baseline. Because of course all this hullabloo about keys being immortal simply because they're items might be all be well and good, perchance even dismissible if mori's were actually any more impactful or powerful than a key is. But guess what? They're not.

    Now, albeit keys are limited by how many generators are done before the hatch can actually appear much like how a mori is limited by the hooks a killer has achieved. However, there is very little to any counterplay for a key whereas there's plenty to do against a mori, which I understand might throw some people into a fit yelling "Franklin's Demise! Franklin's Demise!"

    By simply knowing that a mori is being used Survivors can and will make absolutely certain to not get caught, if they weren't immersed before they are now, and if they weren't sweating during chases to milk every loop out of every jungle gym, they are now. Whereas you have might have no idea if a key is being used because 1. it's about a pixel long and a pixel wide and it's dark color makes it even harder to see beyond it's small size and 2. You might not see it in the pre-game lobby at all because nobody is actually bringing one they just managed to "find one" during a game in a chest. And you have no way of knowing, to try and counter it.

    In this way a mori can be countered by survivors appropriately reacting to the existence of one, when a survivor sees his friend was just killed and the UI displays a skull instead of a tormented soul he knows what's up. Whereas you can hardly counter a key if you aren't aware one is at play in a match because it's effect is immediate. Once one guy escapes he's gone there's nothing you can do to change that.

    Here's the real difference though, where a mori only nets you whoever it is you caught, a key can facilitate the escape of multiple survivors. If it comes down close enough to the wire, a key can be the difference between getting a 4k and getting a 1k especially when survivors are on comms. It only takes 1 survivor with a key to allow the whole team to escape and again, like I mentioned before they don't even have to bring one they can just "find" one (which in my experience, is not all that difficult). That is the difference, mori's kill indviduals and end the match for one person - a key ends the match for everybody.

    Running Franklin's demise as a counter is not an acceptable answer here for it's own two reasons. 1. Franklin's Demise is locked behind a paywall: it is not free at base, nor is it free to earn, you must buy the paragraph to unlock this teachable and unfortunately the paragraph you need to buy is one that offers a one dimensional mediocre killer at best and one of the lowest low tier killers at worst. So already new players or players who simply don't own this licensed piece of content can't counter keys and 2. Why should killers have to go out of their way to counter keys and survivors don't? Killers in order to counter keys must waste one of their precious 4 perk slots in order to counter this perk. Whereas survivors don't sacrifice anything against a mori, because every perk that helps them survive, helps counter a mori. DS, Adrenaline, Unbreakable, Borrowed Time, Self-Care, Dead Hard, Inner Strength, Empathy, Iron Will, etc. Every perk that helps you survive, helps you avoid being mori'd, which is 90% of the perks, the other 10% being BP bonus perks like WGLF.

    But worst of all, news flash, because of the recent item changes it no longer completely counters keys. Now that items no longer disappear after having their charges fully depleted, Franklin's Demise is effectively useless because all they have to do is walk back to where they were hit and pick it up. Or have one of their SWF friends on comms pick it up for them. In fact it may even make it all the harder because now you're chasing one guy while his friend picks up the key and then when you chase him somebody else picks up the key and by that point soon you're struggling to keep track of who's carrying the 1 X 1 black pixel.

    And I don't think I've mentioned it until now, though it was fairly implied: because of the item changes, because of how easy it is to preserve keys and stretch them out for multiple matches in a row, or simply "miraculously" find them, Keys are far more frequently used and far more easily accessed than a mori. Because you don't even need to be the guy who brings it or finds it to receive its benefits, if only one person brings a key you can potentially be guaranteed an escape. Putting my own personal match history of playing survivor and killer side by side I can't tell you how many more times I've seen survivors escape with keys than I have killers bring moris. Sure that statement might be somewhat anecdotal, but I have a sneaking suspicion it nonetheless rings true for a vast majority of the playerbase. Keys are in far greater circulation and thus in far greater use than moris. Plain and simple.

    Not to mention, their frequency of use in matches has been greatly bolstered because of challenges in the archives. Where everyone is encouraged to bring a key and escape for that objective. BHVR: Not Cool Dudes.

    The nightmare scenario is the ultima sweaty tryhard SWF scenario: Where four experienced players hop into a lobby, bring all the right perks, bring all the right items, add-ons for those items, offerings for whatever they want: increased luck or a notoriously survivor sided map IE Haddonfield, and they have 1 guy just one, bring a key. Not only is this match just genuinely difficult to overcome if you aren't playing a meta killer but even if you do overcome such an obstacle that SWF can still win because they had one guy bring a key. Even if they don't get everyone out they still at the very least cut their losses to get three, two, or even just one person to escape that wouldn't have otherwise.

    But again it comes back to that serious issue, the real problem is that a single key can allow everyone in a match to escape, and while a single mori can also swing games it's also possible to just outlast and outplay that killer. Where a key can be circulated around a team for anyone, just because the guy who brought it died doesn't mean it's not still out there in the match.

    The most infuriating circumstance is when you're chasing a guy, he has a key, and he stumbles across the hatch and just hops out ignoring the killer who can only stand by and watch as this dude literally hops up into the air and down a rabbit hole. This should not happen, it makes no sense why it does happen, why can you stand above a hatch and then have it suddenly open by itself to jump through in the middle of a chase?

    CONCLUDING

    Keys are dumb.

    They are in fact, more dumb than moris and that is simply a fact. I'm not saying moris aren't dumb they can be, but unlike keys they have a somewhat cultural relevance to Dead By Daylight. Much like Mortal Kombat is closely tied to its fatalities, and For Honor puts a lot of effort into the spectacle of their executions, Moris are treated the exact same way. People are always excited to see the mori for a new killer and it's a high point of interest for every new chapter. People want to know who the killer is, the map, the survivor, the perks, and the mori. With this in mind the removal of moris is quite simply not viable.

    To be clear I am not saying that moris are free of guilt of causing an unbalance, but I am saying there aren't as many problems with moris as there are with keys. Does that mean moris shouldn't be changed? Maybe, maybe not.

    Would I nerf moris to nerf keys? Yes, yes I would wholeheartedly. Contrary to what my paragraphs of ranting might make you think I'm not against reworking or even nerfing moris, I simply believe it is FAR more important and pertinent to rebalance keys than moris because there are far more issues with them than moris. This item is very clearly unbalanced in 2020 and has not been touched or revised since it's original incarnation and cannot realistically stay in its current state.

    Clarifying my earlier statement on why Mori's can't be removed, this is not to imply that I am advocating the removal of keys because I'm not. Keys do deserve to be in the game, what I care about is fixing keys and making them much harder to abuse. Leading to changes which include but are not limited to the following:

    Solutions

    • Give them a quick animation to open the hatch with an audio cue
      • This is an important and necessary change to prevent keys from being used haphazardly with little to no thought about how they should be used. A short animation that can be interrupted by the killer grabbing them forces survivors to be more meticulous about how they use a key to escape and it completely negates the ability to use keys off the cuff in the middle of a chase. To up the stakes, make keys function similar to BNP's in that if the action is interrupted they are destroyed.
    • Rework the weaved ring and milky glass add-ons
      • This prevents keys from being stretched out and extended long after they realistically should have left a survivor's possession and brings them more in line with Mori's which are true one use mechanics
    • Decrease the chance that they can be found in chests by a significantly wide margin, equal to the same chance to pull yourself off a hook or make them impossible to find in chests unless you're running Ace in the Hole
      • This is nowhere near as infrequent as it realistically should be and a change such as this makes it much more difficult for survivors to pull cheap wins out of the blue, while also at the same time promoting / increasing the use and viability of a lesser used perk (Ace in the Hole)
    • Make them unnecessary late challenges in the archives that you don't need to do to complete a level in a tome or don't make challenges involving keys (and moris) at all
      • Decreases the incentive to use keys - don't make them early challenges that you need to complete to do another one, make these challenges the ones that exist at the edges of the archive web that you have to do other challenges first to reach.


  • Falkner09Falkner09 Member Posts: 347

    it's not very low at all, I've done it MANY times. especially since there's 2 keys that can appear to be used for a free escape. and let's note that the probablity of finding a Mori during a game is 0%.

  • TotemsCleanserTotemsCleanser Member Posts: 617

    Maybe I'm just unlucky :P

    Having read the bible that the guy wrote up here though I must agree that the key add-ons should be nerfed a bit. Specially those that grant you not losing the key after the match.

  • pichumudkippichumudkip Member Posts: 155

    So I'm starting to play killer more than survivor to have fun (I've been a survivor main the very first time I've played the game) and dear God, mori's are EVERYWHERE in the bloodweb (same with keys for survivor bloodwebs) that I personally think they need to heavily reduce the rate mori's appear on bloodwebs, and to make everyone happy, the devs could change the requirements of using a mori so a survivor needs to be dead on hook in order to mori them.


    Keys on the other hand: While it's extremely rare for it to happen, there's a chance there could be multiple keys per game, so you could close the hatch the first time, only for it to automatically be opened up again. They could change it so only 1 key can be used per match. They could also have a short interaction to unlock it with like 1 or 2 skill checks to do so.

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